349 réponses à ce sujet

[Admiral H. Cain]

Why is this thread still alive? The first point was never a plot hole to begin with, and the second point is part of the deus ex machina device, which means it doesn't have to make sense, and therefore isn't a plot hole.

So basically, he said nothing.

It'd be like me debunking the fact the sky isn't green. Well, duh.

[WizenSlinky0]

Psychlonus wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Psychlonus wrote...

My point was that an organization that outlaws AI is not automatically rebelled against militarily; especially if they have a superior perspective on the technological singularity. The Council did it, so can the Reapers. But unlike the council, the Reapers have control of the relays.

Right, but it is not a sustainable solution for any great period of time. The reapers main weapon is that organics are limited to 50,000 years worth of technological devlopment. Without the cycle they could feasibly become stronger than the reapers in just 100,000 years. Create synthetics stronger than the reapers in just 100,000 years.

If you don't limit our technology we will surpass any arbitrary limit on what we can and can't do. The protheans built a relay in one cycle. We'd break from those bonds as well.

The reapers are evolving AI as well and have quite a head start and the reason the protheans built a relay is because they had the galactic economy to do so. But that galactic economy wouldn't exist without reaper supplied relay usage.

Meh. It turns the reapers into less of an antagonist and more of just another race of people who happen to dominate the galaxy. In which case, they aren't the enemy anymore. It would be an entirely different story. So yeah, it may have a concievable solution that the reapers dominate over the galaxy as gods or what have you...though I assure you, we'd eventually solve the riddle of the relays. To me they wouldn't be the reapers anymore in that capacity. It's not just a "What if" but an entirely different story.

But...so what? It's one of many many solutions in the end. The point is someone eventually decided the most efficient method was the cycle. If you don't agree with it, GOOD, that's why they are the antagonists. If we were supposed to agree with it we'd have played as Saren in ME1.

We've all had times when we could have decided to go with tons of different solutions to a problem. We eventually pick the one we feel will solve the problem once and for all.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 27 mars 2012 - 09:16 .

[mlars11]

I started one of these type things here ... http://social.biowar.../index/10636737

Not so much to debunk all of them, but to lay out the concerns and see if anyone was able to explain them. Hopefully it would give Bioware some basis on what needs to be fixed.

[Czw]

Schrijver wrote...

Now try and debunk the Normandy running off with teleporting squadmates

Shepard was in the crucible for a while. If he survived Harbingers ray, so can they. Joker extracted them, to get them out of harms way, and was fleeing from the Reapers, when he saw the light emitted, and fled from it. The light catches up to him and he crash lands. The crew is okay.

Unless you had it where Anderson survived. In that case, I guess the Normandy knew exactly where he was in the citadel and somehow got him out

[rex285]

Too lazy to look through all the posts to see if someone answered or asked this.

I knew the Illusive man was there and I was fully expecting a confrontation. However what I didn't understand is how he ended up behind me when there was only one path to that control room and he most certainly wasn't following me before I entered the beam. He also was clearly not in that room before shepard walked in. This is what I believe most people have a problem with and not the fact that he was there.

[blooregard]

Wonderful post but there is somethings you missed

1) teleporting squad mates + cowardly joker + nobody cares they're leaving Shepard behind

2) what was the point in sovereign in ME1?

3) what was the point of most of ME2

4) when was it mentioned that a mass relay could explode without nuking a system

5) how did anderson beat you to the console through the one way path that only you came up through

6) how did the illusive man sneak up behind you

7) how did hackett know you were on the citadel when they had heard multiple times "no survivors from hammer)

8) why did harbinger decide to fly away when you were standing up

9) how can you breath in space on the bottom of the citadel

10) starchild

[Poison_Berrie]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

This is directly considered in the final cut scene where the wave of energy washes over earth in the Destroy ending (only using it as an example as it's the one I picked and I therefore have a more full context of that ending). The blast isn't harmful because it is being "focused" essentially. It's being targeted to do something very specific. Since energy cannot be created...so long as that energy is being used for another purpose...then no damage should be done to the star system.

But that's not how energy actually works. You are expelling that energy in a multi lightyear radius. The core of that expulsion is going to be so intense as to be destructive to any matter.

BrianWilly wrote...

I think the logic behind this is that if your EMS is low, the Crucible isn't really completed in time and therefore doesn't work the way that it should.

That would work if all those points actually counted towards the Crucible construction.
Instead by abstracting all your forces to that number, we get Krogan foot soldiers making your Crucible better.

EDIT:

Jonwes wrote...

And I didn't even get to why it's very clear Joker wasn't running away...

I'm intruiged. Do expound.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 27 mars 2012 - 09:31 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Poison_Berrie wrote...


But that's not how energy actually works. You are expelling that energy in a multi lightyear radius. The core of that expulsion is going to be so intense as to be destructive to any matter.

Well, I'm sure your credentials on this are probably better than mine if you're bringing it up. But my answer to that is the same as my original one. The energy contained within the relay is converted to a form that is not inherently harmful.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

[Seifer006]

Jonwes wrote...


Also, using the possible Geth/Quarian peace as an example to say the Catalyst is wrong is silly. The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point. The fact that Shepard (might have) brokered a peace doesn't change that, nor does it prevent other organics from making other synthetics in the future  that will rebel and destroy all organic life as the Catalyst fears. The Catalyst has seen this happen over and over. His reference point is not as limited as our experience.

how' is that the Geth rebel???

the creators (quarians) ATTACKED THEM first...

the logical response is the Geth reacted in self-defense

[Seifer006]

Plakmasta wrote...

Those are not the plot holes, nice try though.

agreed

[Poison_Berrie]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Well, I'm sure your credentials on this are probably better than mine if you're bringing it up. But my answer to that is the same as my original one. The energy contained within the relay is converted to a form that is not inherently harmful.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

The principal of toxicity applies to all chemical substances but also to radiation. The dose makes the poison.
Radiation that's usually not really harmfull doesn't interact much with our material universe (neutrinos) so they wouldn't do much.
And a big expulsion of radiation never comes in only a singular form/wavelength/particle.

[Nizzemancer]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
It's completely illogical, and also a lie.

No, it isn't. You're missing the point. The point isn't that "all synthetics will immediatly attempt to destroy all organic life". It is that "eventually, at some point in time, a synthetic race...no matter how peaceful or tame before hand...will eventually doom all organic life".

The Geth/Quarian peace and the general tameness of the Geth are but a blip in time. 10,000 years down the road they could turn out to be the reason all organic life disappears from the galaxy. Or not. The peace you broker is actually quite irrelevent to the catalysts logic because the reapers are considering a longer stretch of time than we are.

We're looking at the immediate scenario. We're biased. You don't have to agree that a tech singularity is inevitable but it is not illogical. It is one of many logical conclusions. Anything beyond that is discussing probabilities.

So the reapers can see the future now? I'm tempted with invoking Godwins law right about now...

And unless they're doing this stunt in every galaxy in the universe (extremely unlikely) their actions are rendered pointless according to their own anti-AI prophecies.

So no, there's nothing logical about this drivel, at all.

[Lookout1390]

Swing, and a miss, OP

[III Mav III]

Wow, if anything this thread has a proved a lot of people here are ****s, i only read two pages and people go "well what about the other million, what what what snorrrrrt"

He addressed two misconsceptions and offered them up for debate, this guy isn't the enemy for defending just two leeeeetle parts of the endings, grow the **** up...you people know who im aiming this at...act like this and Bioware will wonder why even bother...

[III Mav III]

blooregard wrote...

Wonderful post but there is somethings you missed

1) teleporting squad mates + cowardly joker + nobody cares they're leaving Shepard behind

2) what was the point in sovereign in ME1?

3) what was the point of most of ME2

4) when was it mentioned that a mass relay could explode without nuking a system

5) how did anderson beat you to the console through the one way path that only you came up through

6) how did the illusive man sneak up behind you

7) how did hackett know you were on the citadel when they had heard multiple times "no survivors from hammer)

8) why did harbinger decide to fly away when you were standing up

9) how can you breath in space on the bottom of the citadel

10) starchild

He didn't "miss" them, he just tried to explain two of them...that is all...he's not denying the ones in your list...good lord almighty...

[Xeranx]

Shahadem wrote...

 plot holes:

1) The beam which teleports you to Earth. According to the story that beam was meant to bring dead bodies to the Citadel for harvesting. However the Citadel only arrived on Earth within the past 5 minutes to keep everyone from attaching the Crucible to it. Further there were still tons of people on it. You are telling me none of them were able to walk over and open the doors? Or maybe they could have shot TIM when he dried docking with the Citadel...

Oh speaking of doors, there is a huge hole in the back of the Citadel that is still open even when the wings are shut.

2) How is it that no one managed to find those plans in all the years humans were scouring the Martian archives for more Reaper tech but Liara manages to find the plans in a matter of days? Oh and nobody even thinks of making a backup copy. And the Reapers knew about this device through indoctrination yet did nothing about it.,,

3) Javik...How does his pod survive for 50k years with no external power supply when the Ilis pods which do have an external power supply only survive for a few hundred years? Or how is it that he even knows English? You watch two videos on human computers that don't possess the memory transferring tech he would have needed to learn English. The fact that his body was frozen also raises questions about this. Reapers would have also learned of this plan through indoctrination and likely searched for his pod.

4) Shephard handing over the Normandy. Why? She's a council Spectre on a mission to stop the Reapers. Her ship does not belong to the Alliance nor does she report to them having left to work with Cerberus earlier while still retaining her Spectre status.

5) Anyone caring that 100k Batarians died. Nobody likes the Batarians.

6) Synthesis ending. How does green light cause organics and synthetics to suddenly possess synthetics which are integrated down to the molecular level if they are organic and organic parts integrated down to the molecular level if they are synthetic. Can the Geth now give birth to and nurse Geth babies? Can a Quarian copy her soul into a brand new body to exist in two places at once?

7) Control ending: This ending is basically just the god child (not the child of Bhaal from BG, or is it?) deciding not to harvest anyone for another 50k years. They didn't need the Crucible for this one.

Many more.

1. You're saying that the Citadel was brought to the Sol system 5 minutes before Shepard gets there.  How exactly are you measuring this time?  This is the same argument used against Tali being on the Citadel and having the Geth sound module to assist Shepard in convincing the Council that Saren is dirty.  Minutes for us due to pacing of the story doesn't translate into accurate span of time in-game.

2. So LIara could still be relevant.  I don't know.  I'm just really prickly about Liara becoming so important in the story.  So my answer here is, contrivance.

3. Javik's pod might have it's own power source that activates once any other source of power is rendered unavailable.  There was a message about conserving energy in the flashback that showed Javik in the pod talking to the AI.  Javik voiced opposition to something the computer said.  I don't remember what it was right now.

Javik knowing English is actually explained immediately after he wakes up.  That's not a plot hole.  It is weird however.

4.  With Arrival or just the developers pulling the reigns, Shepard ultimately answers to the Alliance.  Regardless of your feelings on the issue, Shepard submits to what his/her superiors tell him to.

5. It's an entire race of people who lost a significan number and a whole system in one shot.  The number was around 300k.  What is most significant about it is the deaths were caused by the destruction of the very thing the entire galaxy uses to get around.  It highlights a potential problem where no one would have thought one would exist.  In either case, this isn't a plot hole.  That'd be like declaring the historic Christmas celebration during wartime (forget who was involved) between opposing forces a plot hole.

6. I call this part of the dream sequence.  It's out there enough to highlight that something isn't right.

7. Haven't seen the control sequence yet so I can't comment.

[Ishandul]

blooregard wrote...

7) how did hackett know you were on the citadel when they had heard multiple times "no survivors from hammer)

This is the only one I can think of an answer to. Hacketts call comes after the arms open and the crucible docks. Therefore SOMEONE had to have made it to the controls on the citidel, It also makes more sense for Hackett to be calling for Shepard instead of  for someother member of Hammer  (except for Anderson). I see the call forShepard to be more wishful thinking on Hacketts part that Shepard wasthe one that made it up.


EDIT: Sill formatting issues.....

Modifié par Ishandul, 28 mars 2012 - 12:14 .

[Saul Iscariot]

@XeranX Point 3 I think the AI says it will use the power sources from the other pods to maintain Javik's.

[Lextra]

sergio71785 wrote...

Two down, a hundred more to go.

[agathokakological]

Shepard was shot in the stomach. How?

Don't forget, MS shoots him/her in the shoulder.

[Joush]

He/she was hit with a liquid jet of uranium traveling at a significant percentage of the speed of light. The bit in his/her belly may be a fragment of his or her armor driven into the body by the kinetic impact when the ablative ceramic and kinetic barriers failed. By the end the only thing holding Shepard together is medi gel and raw willpower.

Or the indoctrination theory. Either way.

[Shepard921]

I finished ME3 the last friday and it takes a warm hug for all the plot holes in the ending and everything was bad. I could accept a Shepard's sacrifice if the plot was really good and full of epic scenes and brilliant ideas, but here there is nothing. In all honesty I did not like what I saw and this hurts because the game is really great. Everything was perfect until to the mission on the Earth, and after an hard fight against the Reapers mutants, my Shepard runs for enter in the conduit and find the Catalyst when she/he's trying to avoid the lasers. Since that point, we are catapulted in a ending without a logical sense, where everything is a total chaos, nonsense, in the main plot.

1) The ending looks like visionary and dreamlike, but it's not epic, there is not a big fight against the Reapers or a "final boss", the conclusions are hasty, and the three endings are all recycled (just change a couple of scenes and the color). The three endings are virtually the same, are all equal, and the only one a little better is "the red" choice, for destroy the Reapers. The Mass Relays destroyed are a costant in all the three endigs and the conclusions of the three choices it's not what I wanted to see in the ending (I want to destroy just the Reapers, and not also EDI and the Geth). This is the thing I hate most in a game: the recycled scenes.
I expected an epic ending as ME1 and especially ME2, but this was just a dream... I get 6605 War Assets points, I helped Quarians and Geth and now they are friends. I helped Krogans and Turians and now the genophage was healed. And for what? Boh...

2) The power of magic is here! All team members are suddenly disappeared, they are no longer on the Earth but on the Normandy (they invented the teleport in the last 5 minutes of the game?), and they are traveling through a mass relay, without cause, while all the mass relays are exploding. I don't think Joker and our team leave Shepard in the hottest part of the fight and escape for a mysterious destination. Maybe they needed some holidays.... O_o

3) The fact that shepard is alive in the "red ending" after the destruction of the Citadel and the fall in the atmosphere is a bit weird...

4) The other half of this ME3 ending is based on a change of ideas. Indeed the explosion of all the mass relays is one of the strangest things in the game. Before ME3, in the DLC "The Arrival", Bioware told us that the destruction of a mass relay cause the destruction of the solar system where it was (the Batarians still remember that). After ME3, the destruction of a mass relay causes just a little "bump" (or "boom"). After this change of ideas from Bioware, I suppose the galaxy is still alive, or we destroyed everything in the galaxy? O_O

5) The Synthesis ending. Uhmm... no comment.

6) This part is just a my personal opinion about The Illusive Man, so you can share or not, it doesn’t matter.
TIM is one of the biggest regrets in the ME3 ending, because he died in the same Saren's way (in the Paragon choice, TIM killed himself just like Saren). Why this “replay”? TIM is the greatest enemy ever seen in the ME saga, so my bigger wish was to see him as a final boss to defeat (as I saw in the artbook, in a sketch, and this would be a great idea). But Bioware preferred to show us TIM as a poor indoctrinated man. We should have mercy of him. Why? I'd rather see Tim die as a bad enemy rather than see him die as a pathetic duplicate of Saren. Because of what I saw, now I'll never look at TIM with the same eyes and this is a very bad thing. If Bioware does again the same thing with TIM, this is just a replay of what we have already seen in the past, and I don't want to see always the same things in a story, not in a masterpiece as Mass Effect. If it is possible, I always prefer to see another point of view in a story, and for this reason I think TIM would be a perfect "evil and ambitious" enemy for Shepard, before to defeat the Reapers definitively. Sadly, TIM is just another fail in the ME3 ending.

Finished the post. Think this is the longest post I've ever written in a forum... xDD

Now Bioware is working on a new DLC for a new ending (this would be great), or fix, or explain what little there. They combined a mess and maybe I forgot to say something else about the ending!
With all this mess it's hard to guess something to explain in this ending. Indeed, for what I saw, nothing else has any sense. It makes more sense if we assume that "the ending is just a Shepard's dream, the result of the Reaper's control after being hit by the laser, and the Shepard's awakening on the Earth after the "red ending" it's the beginning of a future DLC/ expansion, with a REAL ending..." These are my assumptions about the new DLC.
For now, I'm playing again ME3 because is too awesome!!

[Muhvitus]

1. Destroying organic life to preserve it is not a plot hole, it is just stupid. I could think billion things i'd try before my solution would be to kill trillions of beings every 50000 years.

[appleyum]

Why did they attack the poor Amish. They had no capability to build synthetic.

Basically Reaper didn't have to completely wipe out advance civilization.  All they need to do is knock them into isolation with no advanced education.

Modifié par appleyum, 28 mars 2012 - 12:47 .

[Shahadem]

Deleted.

Modifié par Shahadem, 28 mars 2012 - 08:25 .