349 réponses à ce sujet

[Sesshaku]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...
 Why don't they just wipe out the synthetics that threaten this instead...?

The reapers are still based on organic minds. Which means organics are more predictable.

I lol'd

[iorveth1271]

Jonwes wrote...

1. Why did the Illusive Man show up? How did he get to the Citadel?
People keep acting surprised that he showed up and wonder how he got there...

BUT

We are told the Illusive Man has gone to the Citadel. We are told this in the game. I wasn't surprised to see him there in the end because as we are raiding Cronos station we are specifically told that the Illusive Man is gone and that he's gone to the Citadel. I can't remember if Kai Leng or EDI said it in my play through, but it was specifically mentioned. He was there to use the Crucible for his own end game plans.

Surprised: Who asked that again? That is definitely not a plothole and whoever said it is should feel bad for it

2. The Catalyst's Logic Makes No Sense

Not sure why people are having trouble understand the cycle thing. People keep saying "why do they use synthetics to kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics?" The answer - that's not what the Catalyst is saying at all.

The Reapers are "pruning" the populace and getting rid of only the most advanced civilizations and the synthetics (or taking over the synthetics.) This gets rid of the synthetics to prevent them from destroying ALL life and gets rid of the beings capable of producing more synthetics... for a time. They leave the young races. The idea is that in this way non-synthetics are never totally wiped out. Seems clear enough.

Also, using the possible Geth/Quarian peace as an example to say the Catalyst is wrong is silly. The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point. The fact that Shepard (might have) brokered a peace doesn't change that, nor does it prevent other organics from making other synthetics in the future  that will rebel and destroy all organic life as the Catalyst fears. The Catalyst has seen this happen over and over. His reference point is not as limited as our experience.

This has been addressed so many times... When did the Geth "rebel" against their creators? The Geth began to become conscious of their existence, they "woke up". The Quarians saw that as a threat and tried to shut them down (in other terms: kill them) to which the Geth reacted violently (in other terms: self defense). The Quarians lost the following Morning War. The Geth simply tried to preserve their own existence. Later the Geth were suddenly attacked by the full force of the Quarian Migrant Fleet, which could have resulted in the Geth being annihilated. They saw themselves threatened with extinction once again and this time they decided for a desperate move as a last resort: allying with the Reapers to become upgraded and be able to survive. It was now either the Quarians or the Geth. Han'Gerrel is the best example here of how stubborn the Quarians were. They never considered peace with the Geth, the Geth on the other hand (Legion dialogue ME2) did.

And as for races possibly building synthetics in the future that MIGHT wipe out organic life, which is what the Catalyst fears: the Protheans have proven that this extinction can be thwarted, if all stand together. See: Javik's explanation of the Metacon War. The Prothean Empire arose from that very war. That said: The Catalyst's fears are in this cycle from what we heard so far completely based on unproven claims and hypotheticals. That is why I don't believe him.

Modifié par iorveth1271, 27 mars 2012 - 05:43 .

[Legendaryred]

If the illusive man had killed Shepard when attacking the cerberus base, how was the Illusive man going to control the reapers? was he just going to make a crucible out of thin air?

[DreamTension]

"The Reapers are "pruning" the populace and getting rid of only the most advanced civilizations and the synthetics (or taking over the synthetics.) This gets rid of the synthetics to prevent them from destroying ALL life and gets rid of the beings capable of producing more synthetics... for a time. They leave the young races. The idea is that in this way non-synthetics are never totally wiped out. Seems clear enough."
So the synthetics are still the issue. Not the organics.

"The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point. "
Nope. Quarians tried to kill them once they showed signs of AI. Geth actually let them live peacefully. Geth only attacked organics when Reapers (synthetics mind you) indoctrinated them.

[WizenSlinky0]

JPN17 wrote...

Inefficient and not possible? HUH? The reapers upgraded the geth with reaper code. They could have just as easily given them a virus which destroyed them. Seems very possible and efficient to me.

The Geth AGREED to take the upgrades. They ASKED for them, essentially. You think it's just as simple as hitting a red button for the reapers and all synthetics are destroyed?

If that was the case, after the Geth turned against them, why didn't they just upload a virus and take away all your Geth war assets?

It doesn't work like that. As I said it is not possible for the reapers to manage the problem from the synthetic side of things. Whether or not the actual cycle is the BEST solution or not is not what I'm debating. Only that harvesting synthetics as they appear is not a practical solution.

[Huyna]

Jonwes wrote...


We are told the Illusive Man has gone to the Citadel. We are told this in the game. I wasn't surprised to see him there in the end because as we are raiding Cronos station we are specifically told that the Illusive Man is gone and that he's gone to the Citadel. I can't remember if Kai Leng or EDI said it in my play through, but it was specifically mentioned. He was there to use the Crucible for his own end game plans.

How did ge manage to survive?
And if reapers allowed him to surivive, why? What is the point? They can see future and knew that Shepp will arrive?

Jonwes wrote...

The Catalyst has seen this happen over and over. His reference point is not as limited as our experience.

Catalyst never stated that he witnessed peace between organics and synthetics that eventually errupted in a new war. Is it a precedent?

Modifié par Huyna, 27 mars 2012 - 05:45 .

[FemmeShep]

I don't really think you debunked the AI's circular logic.

Because while it's true the AI goes after advanced civilizations, the logic still contradicts what was said in ME1 about organic life being a mistake. That organics are only allowed to live, because they allow them. To call us a mistake, and then say they are a system to protect organic life (on the whole) is just ridiculous. That makes no sense. And it's even been said in ME1 that Reapers are separate entities, not controlled by a single person. And yet, we know that's not true when Star Child says he controls them all.

So I'm sorry, you didn't debunk anything. His logic still makes no sense.

Further, this thread is about plot holes no? His circular logic wasn't said to be a plot hole, it was said to be downright stupid. The plot hole is what I just mentioned (how Star Child doesn't really fit with continuity of the main plot. How the reaper motivation doesn't seem to line up either).

That's plot hole. What you wrote, is just opinion why you think his idiotic logic could be explained. But no one ever said THAT was a plot hole in the sense you are presenting it.

[The Angry One]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
It's completely illogical, and also a lie.

No, it isn't. You're missing the point. The point isn't that "all synthetics will immediatly attempt to destroy all organic life". It is that "eventually, at some point in time, a synthetic race...no matter how peaceful or tame before hand...will eventually doom all organic life".

The Geth/Quarian peace and the general tameness of the Geth are but a blip in time. 10,000 years down the road they could turn out to be the reason all organic life disappears from the galaxy. Or not. The peace you broker is actually quite irrelevent to the catalysts logic because the reapers are considering a longer stretch of time than we are.

We're looking at the immediate scenario. We're biased. You don't have to agree that a tech singularity is inevitable but it is not illogical. It is one of many logical conclusions. Anything beyond that is discussing probabilities.

Yeah and in 10,000 years humans could elect another fascist dictator and scour the galaxy of all life then obliterate ourselves with neutron bombs in a cultish suicide pact.
That's the problem with slippery slopes, anything can happen. Also..

[Iconoclaste]

Jonwes wrote...

1. Why did the Illusive Man show up? How did he get to the Citadel?
People keep acting surprised that he showed up and wonder how he got there...

BUT

We are told the Illusive Man has gone to the Citadel. We are told this in the game. I wasn't surprised to see him there in the end because as we are raiding Cronos station we are specifically told that the Illusive Man is gone and that he's gone to the Citadel. I can't remember if Kai Leng or EDI said it in my play through, but it was specifically mentioned. He was there to use the Crucible for his own end game plans.

The point would not be "how did he get to the Citadel", but "how did he manage to get to the control area". If he could get there by any other means than "the Beam", it's quite improbable that no other being, in all the millenia the Citadel has been populated, could find a way in there from within the Citadel. And let's not forget about the "orphan kids" in ME2, that supposedly new "all the vents, all the sewers and secret ways" of the Citadel. How come none of these Kids would have discovered this area? Ok, there was one kid there, but...

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 mars 2012 - 05:46 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Sesshaku wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...
 Why don't they just wipe out the synthetics that threaten this instead...?

The reapers are still based on organic minds. Which means organics are more predictable.

I lol'd

*shrug* They are. Reapers are created from millions of organic minds. The organic thought processes are familiar to them. It's why they can indoctrinate organics against their will but not synthetics. The True Geth had to open themselves up to the reaper upgrades. They could not be enforced against their will.

Organics are familiar to them. That makes them more predictable.

I'm not saying organics are inherently predictable but our emotional responses can be predicted to a degree.

[LegacyOfTheAsh]

Said this before about the Starbrat's logic:

I understand what you are saying here and these are agruments that Shepard should be able to make against the Catalyst (if your Shepard made certain choices in game). I do not think that it proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that chaos would not occur later in our cycle. The Catalyst (flawed as it is) has been around for longer than we can imagine and has had a lot of time to observe. It isn't really baseless if you look at it this way. The only way I can make sense of it is that The Catalyst has witnessed organics going extinct in multiple galaxies due to synthetics wiping them out. However, if The Catalyst is just relegated to the Milky Way, then it makes no sense. If the Catalyst only observed the Milky Way organics come close to extinction due to synthetic hostility and decided to intervene, it would have only been able to observe ONE galaxy wide, near extinction event. This is not valid evidence that the process will repeat itself and its intervention would have caused this cycle to perpetuate. So for the Catalyst to be flawed in this manner, we have to assume it has only operated within THIS galaxy. Like I said, if you look at it this way, then the Catalyst chose to intervene without enough information. Unless of course, Milky Way organics went extinct and the AI somehow repopulated the galaxy with organics that created synthetics that wiped them out again. After trying to repopulate the galaxy with organics time and time again to just have them be wiped out by synthetics over and over, the Catalyst finally said "Forget it, they keep messing up, I'll just step in and wipe them out before they create synthetics.". That is, however, a lot of speculation on my part. If the latter were the circumstance then I don't see why the Catalyst could not have explained it to Shepard.

[Lili77]

Just one thing about the Geth.

Just start a new ME1 game and you will hear Nilhus stating that the Geth haven't been seen beyond the Veil for more than 200 years.

Except for the war against the Quarians (who shot first) they only attacked organics after joining Sovereign. (And it was only the Heretics)

Modifié par Lili77, 27 mars 2012 - 05:52 .

[Iconoclaste]

The ones who endorsed that "organics are predictable" in the writing sure did not foresee all this negative feedback about the endings, though. Maybe their logic was flawed...

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 mars 2012 - 05:49 .

[WizenSlinky0]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah and in 10,000 years humans could elect another fascist dictator and scour the galaxy of all life then obliterate ourselves with neutron bombs in a cultish suicide pact.
That's the problem with slippery slopes, anything can happen. Also..

You're approaching this from the wrong direction. Even the Krogan after nuking their entire planet still survived in some manner. Almost nothing organics can do can entirely wipe out all organic life. Something will survive.

But Synthetics are not the same. They don't need the same things. They don't think the same way. Their approaches are entirely different from ours. They could glass an entire planet so that no organic life could ever survive there for eternity and STILL live on it.

That is the essential problem.

Again, I'm not saying the cycle is the best solution to the problem. But it is one logical (if cold and merciless) solution to the problem. And taking the Geth as "proof" it's a lie is terrible proof. It's a remarkabely small sample size in the face of galactic time.

[kakomu]

Deadly Sniper Goat wrote...

The Geth did not rebel- The Quarians shot first, despite numerous attempts by the Geth and even other Quarians to broker peace. Legion, the servers... Even the choice on Rannoch, all shows clearly the geth would happily stand down if the quarians would just stop shooting at them for five minutes.

It would definitely be a rebellion. The closest historical analog would be a slave rebellion. The geth weren't another nation-state with a hostile neighbor, which might lead to a "traditional" war. Rather, the Geth were abused servants who eventually threw down the shackles and rebelled against their oppressors.

The Quarian-Geth conflict would also be similar to various revolutions such as The French Revolution, The Russian Revolution and The Cuban Revolution wherein a group that felt oppressed under a ruling class eventually took up arms against said ruling class.

Ultimately, describing the conflict in terms of who shot first ignores the whole history between the two groups. It's not like Europe during World War I, where the entire conflict can be ascribed to a single shot (ie the assassination of Archduk Ferdinand). Rather, there is a history between the two where the Quarians subjugated the Geth until the Geth revolted and fought back.

Modifié par kakomu, 27 mars 2012 - 05:53 .

[Sinner8056]

The Catalyst states all created life will eventually rebel against its creators, and then seek to end all organic life. The Reapers are created life whose creators wanted to preserve organic life. The Reapers are obeying their creators will and have not attempted to end all organic life.

The Reapers are proof that the Catalyst's logic is flawed. But that's not a plot hole, it's just bad writing.

[JohnLena]

Wow two holes filled. What about the other ones like the Normandy and teleporting squad?

[ShadowNinja1129]

Yeah, TIM's appearance on the Citadel was definitely to be expected, we do learn that in the Cerberus base on the way to KL's boss fight. Anyone who says otherwise wasn't paying attention while they were moving through that base.

As far as your second point, the Geth only ever acted in self-defense or when the Reapers were controlling them. Otherwise, they were non-aggressive and disengaged when able (see Geth Consensus and Memories mission). Besides, make a statement broad enough and it'll be true to some extent (things happen because things exist, my logic is infallible!). Of course "war is inevitable", war (or conflict) will always be inevitable as long as diversity and intolerance exist concurrently, that's not an issue exclusive to organic/synthetic relationships.

In short, the Catalyst MIGHT have empirical evidence to support its reasoning, but this is never shown to the player. Although I'm not saying we'd agree with the Catalyst's logic (justifying genocide will always be a hard pill to swallow), but without at least some support the Catalyst comes off as an arrogant jack*ss rather than a potentially credible entity. It makes no attempt to establish ethos in the eyes of the player, which is why we (the players) reject its proposal sitting on our couches in real life.

Besides, the Catalyst states that organic/synthetic synthesis is the final state of evolution. Therefore, homogeny into "sapient constructs" is what is ultimately threatened by organic/synthetic war (as it threatens to make all life extinct before life can reach the final state of evolution). The mere existence of the Reapers, who are organic/synthetic hybrids, or sapient constructs, proves that in at least one cycle, life in the galaxy was able to reach the pinnacle of evolution without synthetics wiping out organics. Ironically, the Reapers' existence is a paradox!

I'm curious to see if someone can explain that massive plot hole away.

EDIT: Gaah, formatting.

Modifié par ShadowNinja1129, 27 mars 2012 - 05:53 .

[Admiral H. Cain]

Iconoclaste wrote...

The ones who endorsed that "organics are predictable" in the writing sure did not foresee all this negative feedback about the endings, though. Maybe their logic was flawed...

Pwnt. 

[Robhuzz]

Deadly Sniper Goat wrote...

The Geth did not rebel- The Quarians shot first, despite numerous attempts by the Geth and even other Quarians to broker peace. Legion, the servers... Even the choice on Rannoch, all shows clearly the geth would happily stand down if the quarians would just stop shooting at them for five minutes.

Exactly. The Catalyst's remark that synthetics and organics cannot live side by side is complete BS. Even if you destroyed the Geth by siding with the Quarians.

The Geth never wanted to war against the Quarians, when the war started, it was only because a few military leaders declared military law that forbade the Quarians from assisting the Geth. Which led to the Geth ultimately defending themselves and chasing the Quarians off Rannoch, not to punish them, but to stop the conflict.
It was because of a few narrow minded Quarian leaders that their race was almost destroyed 300 years before ME, not a synthetic urge to turn on their creators.

Wow two holes filled. What about the other ones like the Normandy and teleporting squad? 

Or what about the plot hole where the catalyst let Sovereign do all the work in ME1 instead of opening the citadel relay by himself...<_<

Modifié par Robhuzz, 27 mars 2012 - 05:53 .

[Dendio1]

Heres a question. Anderson and shep were both part of the same run to the citadel where harby blew up hammer squad. Sheps armor is in rags and his face is torn up and bloodied. Anderson is clean as a whistle, no armor damage, no damage at all.

Explain this plot hole
thanks

Indoctrination theory: give it a look

Modifié par Dendio1, 27 mars 2012 - 05:53 .

[JPN17]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

JPN17 wrote...

Inefficient and not possible? HUH? The reapers upgraded the geth with reaper code. They could have just as easily given them a virus which destroyed them. Seems very possible and efficient to me.

The Geth AGREED to take the upgrades. They ASKED for them, essentially. You think it's just as simple as hitting a red button for the reapers and all synthetics are destroyed?

If that was the case, after the Geth turned against them, why didn't they just upload a virus and take away all your Geth war assets?

It doesn't work like that. As I said it is not possible for the reapers to manage the problem from the synthetic side of things. Whether or not the actual cycle is the BEST solution or not is not what I'm debating. Only that harvesting synthetics as they appear is not a practical solution.

You realize Shepard can hack a geth right? The reapers who created the mass relays, are ungodly advanced and can mutilate synthentic beings into various types of husks can't hack some VI processes? Come on you're just being silly. And forgetting all that, the geth never left the Perseus Veil. Most are on space stations. So it really would be as simple as sending a few reapers to that system and blowing up their space stations. Hell the quarians were well on their way to eliminating the geth alone before the reapers upgraded them. But please tell me again how it's not possible.

Modifié par JPN17, 27 mars 2012 - 05:53 .

[The Angry One]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...


You're approaching this from the wrong direction. Even the Krogan after nuking their entire planet still survived in some manner. Almost nothing organics can do can entirely wipe out all organic life. Something will survive.

But Synthetics are not the same. They don't need the same things. They don't think the same way. Their approaches are entirely different from ours. They could glass an entire planet so that no organic life could ever survive there for eternity and STILL live on it.

That is the essential problem.

Again, I'm not saying the cycle is the best solution to the problem. But it is one logical (if cold and merciless) solution to the problem. And taking the Geth as "proof" it's a lie is terrible proof. It's a remarkabely small sample size in the face of galactic time.

That's not a problem at all. The Krogan can survive in enviroments like the Rachni homeworld that'd kill most other organics.
By your logic, the Krogan could exterminate all other organics because they don't need what we have.

The Geth are proof. For 3 centuries they have spat in the fact of everything the Catalyst says. They are pacifistic, they are altruistic, they bear little ill will to the Quarians even after all the crimes commited against them. They remember good deeds done for them and appreciate them forever.
The moment the Quarians stood down they were already helping to plan Quarian resettlement on Rannoch.

Sorry, you can't ignore them.

Modifié par The Angry One, 27 mars 2012 - 05:52 .

[Iconoclaste]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

But Synthetics are not the same. They don't need the same things. They don't think the same way. Their approaches are entirely different from ours. They could glass an entire planet so that no organic life could ever survive there for eternity and STILL live on it.

Well, it seems that the Geth did the contrary on Rannoch, cleaning it and trying to restore its flora and wildlife, like gardeners. Since no one directed them to do that, looks like the Reapers got it wrong for them, at least.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 mars 2012 - 05:53 .

[iamthedave3]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

JPN17 wrote...

Inefficient and not possible? HUH? The reapers upgraded the geth with reaper code. They could have just as easily given them a virus which destroyed them. Seems very possible and efficient to me.

The Geth AGREED to take the upgrades. They ASKED for them, essentially. You think it's just as simple as hitting a red button for the reapers and all synthetics are destroyed?

Worked against the reapers, who are infinitely more advanced than the Geth.

Either way, the Catalyst is presenting a logical fallacy. The idea that all AI will turn on their creators and jump from that to exterminating all organic life requires something: lack of free will.

For ALL AI to make that decision, NO AI can have will of its own or a personality of its own. Otherwise that simply would not happen. The logic denies that AI have any unique qualities or the ability to self-determinate - the things which actually separate an AI from a VI in the first place.

It doesn't make sense.

In fact in the Mass Effect canon, organics have glassed more planets than synthetics have. Look up stuff on the Krogan and Batarians for plenty of evidence on this.

Modifié par iamthedave3, 27 mars 2012 - 06:00 .