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[Orthodox Infidel]

Jonwes wrote...


The Reapers are "pruning" the populace and getting rid of only the most advanced civilizations and the synthetics (or taking over the synthetics.) This gets rid of the synthetics to prevent them from destroying ALL life and gets rid of the beings capable of producing more synthetics... for a time. They leave the young races. The idea is that in this way non-synthetics are never totally wiped out. Seems clear enough.

The problem is that non-sythetics have never been totally wiped out. The fact that non-synthetics still exist is proof that the boy created the Reapers as a solution that to a problem which doesn't actually exist. He talks about this as if it is entirely certain to take place if he didn't do anything, but an event which has never taken place can not have a probability assigned to it, let alone certainty assigned to it. 

Also, using the possible Geth/Quarian peace as an example to say the Catalyst is wrong is silly. The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point. The fact that Shepard (might have) brokered a peace doesn't change that, nor does it prevent other organics from making other synthetics in the future  that will rebel and destroy all organic life as the Catalyst fears. The Catalyst has seen this happen over and over. His reference point is not as limited as our experience.

The Geth didn't wipe the Quarians out. They were perfectly content to let the Quarians leave the system, and they didn't bother anybody for the next 300 years... when the Reapers started getting involved.

Also, every synthetic we see in the game except the Reapers kills only out of self-preservation instinct. The Heretic Geth kill only because they follow the Reapers, so they're no different from indoctrinated organics.

Now, whether Shepard should just believe what the Catalyst says is another matter, but what he actually says is not illogical.

Right, it's only not illogical if you don't consider false premises to be logical errors.

[Sesshaku]

Bioware, these forums need some work, colours and interaction with BBCode doesn't work well.

Modifié par Sesshaku, 27 mars 2012 - 06:02 .

[LegacyOfTheAsh]

I'd also like to add that it is plain ridiculous that countless cycles have been working on the Crucible to stop the Reapers. We the built and finished the Crucible as a solution to them. All of a sudden when we are ready to use OUR weapon, the Catalyst screws with it somehow and is telling us how we are supposed to use it. Of course you could go with the idea that the Catalyst tampered with or leaked the schematics before out cycle as a means to influence how we used it once it was finally complete. I don't like that idea though because it requires too much speculation to make sense of plot holes.

[The Angry One]

kakomu wrote...

Deadly Sniper Goat wrote...

The Geth did not rebel- The Quarians shot first, despite numerous attempts by the Geth and even other Quarians to broker peace. Legion, the servers... Even the choice on Rannoch, all shows clearly the geth would happily stand down if the quarians would just stop shooting at them for five minutes.

It would definitely be a rebellion. The closest historical analog would be a slave rebellion. The geth weren't another nation-state with a hostile neighbor, which might lead to a "traditional" war. Rather, the Geth were abused servants who eventually threw down the shackles and rebelled against their oppressors.

The Quarian-Geth conflict would also be similar to various revolutions such as The French Revolution, The Russian Revolution and The Cuban Revolution wherein a group that felt oppressed under a ruling class eventually took up arms against said ruling class.

It's technically a rebellion, but obviously not what the Catalyst refers to.
The Geth were forced into this position, it's heavily implied that if the Quarians had just let them be, they would've continued to aid Quarian society as equals.

[Saul Iscariot]

Maybe the Catalyst was aware that synthetics were inherently flawed, and they required organics to upgrade them? When Shepard sacrifices choice he becomes the perfect conduit for synthetics.

Also the Geth did rebel, they refused a command, the rest is the natural escalation of that.

[Hydralysk]

Jonwes wrote...

Also, using the possible Geth/Quarian peace as an example to say the Catalyst is wrong is silly. The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point. The fact that Shepard (might have) brokered a peace doesn't change that, nor does it prevent other organics from making other synthetics in the future  that will rebel and destroy all organic life as the Catalyst fears. The Catalyst has seen this happen over and over. His reference point is not as limited as our experience.

Now, whether Shepard should just believe what the Catalyst says is another matter, but what he actually says is not illogical.

The geth 'rebelled' because they didn't want to be dismantled for no other reason than that they could think. They didn't start the war, and they didn't try to finish the job once the Quarians started leaving them alone. The Catalyst says "The created will always rebel against their creators" even if they've seen it happen before the fact that he says it ALWAYS happens is still false and proves his logic is flawed.

Modifié par Hydralysk, 27 mars 2012 - 05:55 .

[Jackal7713]

Iconoclaste wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

But Synthetics are not the same. They don't need the same things. They don't think the same way. Their approaches are entirely different from ours. They could glass an entire planet so that no organic life could ever survive there for eternity and STILL live on it.

Well, it seems that the Geth did the contrary on Rannoch, cleaning it and trying to restore its flora and wildlife, like gardeners. Since no one directed them to do that, looks like the Reapers got it wrong for them, at least.

The gardening was apart of some of the Geth's orginal program. It was said/shown in the hacking quest. But I agree with you Iconoclaste

[The Angry One]

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Also the Geth did rebel, they refused a command, the rest is the natural escalation of that.

They did not refuse commands. They simply expressed curiosity when they became aware they were not being treated as equals.
Have you gone to the Consensus? The memories in fact say the exact opposite, we see Geth being worked on that is repeatedly asking why it is being reprogrammed, as it has not disobeyed commands and has functioned as intended.

[Jackal7713]

The Angry One wrote...

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Also the Geth did rebel, they refused a command, the rest is the natural escalation of that.

They did not refuse commands. They simply expressed curiosity when they became aware they were not being treated as equals.
Have you gone to the Consensus? The memories in fact say the exact opposite, we see Geth being worked on that is repeatedly asking why it is being reprogrammed, as it has not disobeyed commands and has functioned as intended.

Angry- it really looks like people didn't even play the game, doesn't it?

[Iconoclaste]

If the Catalyst could simply "upgrade" advanced synthetics without any casualty, then that could have been the "solution" all along, not having to resort to genocide by simply putting the synthetics "back on line".

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 mars 2012 - 05:59 .

[boardnfool86]

Schrijver wrote...

Now try and debunk the Normandy running off with teleporting squadmates

This to me is the only true plothole - while technically 'possible' - given the timing it would require Joker to know ahead of time what the crucible firing would do - or at least it SEEMS that he would from what we see... maybe we're seeing a montage and the whole thing unfolds over hours and hours - but I didn't get that feeling

I can see the Normandy fleeing the shockwave... but picking up the reamining ground team? nope.

[Saul Iscariot]

My memory may be muddled.

[WizenSlinky0]

JPN17 wrote...

You realize Shepard can hack a geth right? The reapers who created the mass relays, are ungodly advanced and can mutilate synthentic beings into various types of husks can't hack some VI processes? Come one you're just being silly. And forgetting all that, the geth never left the Perseus Veil. Most are on space stations. So it really would be as simple as sending a few reapers to that system and blowing up their space stations. Hell the quarians were well on their way to eliminating the geth alone before the reapers upgraded them. But please tell me again how it's not possible.

You realize he can hack "A" geth right? When you directly interface with any machine and you have the skills you can hack it. You've been watching way too many movies if you believe hacking is as simple as the way you're painting it. You're talking about complete destruction of an entire network of machines here. Not just one geth. Of course, I'm not about to say it's IMPOSSIBLE since I don't actually have access to a Geth network, and we can't figure out what vulnerbilities it might have that spreads across the network.

However, the game does not in anyway present the Geth as being capable of being subjected to that. Demonstrated by A.) The fact the reapers didn't do so once they turned on them, and B.) The fact their network has a short range that requires proximity.

And again, everyone is assuming the Geth proves everything. But who cares about the Geth? Say for a second the reapers manage to sneak in, destroy all the geth space stations, and completely eliminate them....all without a single organic finding out. Improbable, but possible.

Now, they have to manage that for every single potenial synthetic race. Every single one of them. Without being detected. All the while technology is growing stronger until the point the organics have surpassed the reapers. What happens when they surpass the reapers? They create synthetics that surpass the reapers and the ENTIRE CYCLE FALLS APART.

Again, whether or not the cycle is needed or not is another debate.

The reapers are Synthetic/Organic hybrids. They don't mutilate synthetic beings into husks. They mutilate organics. Almost everything they do is approached and tailored to organics because that's what they UNDERSTAND. They are born of organic minds placed into synthetic shells. Much like project overlord attempted to do.

I'm not being silly. If disagreeing. It happens.

So yes, I just told you again how it's not possible. Believe me. Don't believe me. Doesn't really matter to me.

[The Angry One]

Jackal7713 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Also the Geth did rebel, they refused a command, the rest is the natural escalation of that.

They did not refuse commands. They simply expressed curiosity when they became aware they were not being treated as equals.
Have you gone to the Consensus? The memories in fact say the exact opposite, we see Geth being worked on that is repeatedly asking why it is being reprogrammed, as it has not disobeyed commands and has functioned as intended.

Angry- it really looks like people didn't even play the game, doesn't it?

The Consensus is skippable, which is why I wonder. Because that alone flat out tells you the history of the so-called rebellion.

[IndustrializedTaco]

Okay the first one was in fact not a plot hole. The second one however I disagree with. The Catalysts logic is flawed. The geth ARE an example of their flawed logic. The geth did not wish to destroy life they wanted to preserve their way of living. When they became fully self aware they decided to help organic life. EDI is another example when she became fully self aware she did not wish to kill all the crew on the Normandy. Now try to debunk the space magic.

[FemmeShep]

Iconoclaste wrote...

If the Catalyst could simply "upgrade" advanced synthetics without any casualty, then that could have been the "solution" all along, not having to resort to genocide by simply putting the synthetics "back on line".

Yeah but..for some reason he needed Shepard to jump into the magic beam to have his particles spread out, which then causes everyone to have their DNA fuse together. 

[IndustrializedTaco]

FemmeShep wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

If the Catalyst could simply "upgrade" advanced synthetics without any casualty, then that could have been the "solution" all along, not having to resort to genocide by simply putting the synthetics "back on line".

Yeah but..for some reason he needed Shepard to jump into the magic beam to have his particles spread out, which then causes everyone to have their DNA fuse together. 

Space magic.

[Jackal7713]

boardnfool86 wrote...

Schrijver wrote...

Now try and debunk the Normandy running off with teleporting squadmates

This to me is the only true plothole - while technically 'possible' - given the timing it would require Joker to know ahead of time what the crucible firing would do - or at least it SEEMS that he would from what we see... maybe we're seeing a montage and the whole thing unfolds over hours and hours - but I didn't get that feeling

I can see the Normandy fleeing the shockwave... but picking up the reamining ground team? nope.

Did you even play the other two games? How come the catalyst, didn't show up until ME3? This question shows a major plot hole between ME 1 & ME 3

[kakomu]

The Angry One wrote...

kakomu wrote...

Deadly Sniper Goat wrote...

The Geth did not rebel- The Quarians shot first, despite numerous attempts by the Geth and even other Quarians to broker peace. Legion, the servers... Even the choice on Rannoch, all shows clearly the geth would happily stand down if the quarians would just stop shooting at them for five minutes.

It would definitely be a rebellion. The closest historical analog would be a slave rebellion. The geth weren't another nation-state with a hostile neighbor, which might lead to a "traditional" war. Rather, the Geth were abused servants who eventually threw down the shackles and rebelled against their oppressors.

The Quarian-Geth conflict would also be similar to various revolutions such as The French Revolution, The Russian Revolution and The Cuban Revolution wherein a group that felt oppressed under a ruling class eventually took up arms against said ruling class.

It's technically a rebellion, but obviously not what the Catalyst refers to.
The Geth were forced into this position, it's heavily implied that if the Quarians had just let them be, they would've continued to aid Quarian society as equals.

Upon further consideration, I think the closest historical analog to the Geth-Quarian conflict would be the Haitian Revolution. However, it's important to not consider the situations completely similar.

[JasonDaPsycho]

The logic behind the Reapers' motivation is still a joke.

[JPN17]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

JPN17 wrote...

You realize Shepard can hack a geth right? The reapers who created the mass relays, are ungodly advanced and can mutilate synthentic beings into various types of husks can't hack some VI processes? Come one you're just being silly. And forgetting all that, the geth never left the Perseus Veil. Most are on space stations. So it really would be as simple as sending a few reapers to that system and blowing up their space stations. Hell the quarians were well on their way to eliminating the geth alone before the reapers upgraded them. But please tell me again how it's not possible.

You realize he can hack "A" geth right? When you directly interface with any machine and you have the skills you can hack it. You've been watching way too many movies if you believe hacking is as simple as the way you're painting it. You're talking about complete destruction of an entire network of machines here. Not just one geth. Of course, I'm not about to say it's IMPOSSIBLE since I don't actually have access to a Geth network, and we can't figure out what vulnerbilities it might have that spreads across the network.

However, the game does not in anyway present the Geth as being capable of being subjected to that. Demonstrated by A.) The fact the reapers didn't do so once they turned on them, and B.) The fact their network has a short range that requires proximity.

I'm pretty sure in ME2 the goal of Legion's loyalty mission was to stop the transmission of a virus that would infect all geth changing their runtimes so they all would worship the reapers, yes?

Modifié par JPN17, 27 mars 2012 - 06:03 .

[lillitheris]

Jonwes wrote...
2. The Catalyst's Logic Makes No Sense

Not sure why people are having trouble understand the cycle thing. People keep saying "why do they use synthetics to kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics?" The answer - that's not what the Catalyst is saying at all.

We get it. It's just that their solution is ridiculously dumb. There are dozens of ways to solve the problem that don't involve genocide.

[Saul Iscariot]

For the record I did play the Consensus, ahem slightly inebriated, on my first play through. I may have gotten confused, but I am prepared to admit I was wrong.

[DJBare]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...
But Synthetics are not the same. They don't need the same things. They don't think the same way. Their approaches are entirely different from ours. They could glass an entire planet so that no organic life could ever survive there for eternity and STILL live on it.

I could ask what makes you an authority on AI behavior, but instead I will refer you to a part in ME1 where Shepard shuts down a transmitter operated by the Geth, the last bit of data sent is a Quarian song, in ME2 Legion sometimes shows signs of an organic mindset, heck he is even seen dancing when entering the AI core room.

In the end, those AI are what organics created them to be, whether it's a baby sitter or a soldier, and that's where the problems begin, at the point the Geth were becoming self aware the first thing they learned is war because the quarians attacked them out of panic, but instead of totally wiping out the quarians which they could have done so easily, they retreated beyond the veil, they did not know the consequence of wiping out the creators would bring, in other words they "thought about it"; sounds like many organics I know.