349 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Optimus J wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

Also, using the possible Geth/Quarian peace as an example to say the Catalyst is wrong is silly. The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point.

In self defense, the Creators attacked them *first*.

So, how exactly the "cataclyst" logic fits when it's not the Synthetics rebelling against the organics? Geth have been peacefully keeping themselves in the veil for 300 years, and only "rebelled" because of what? What again? REAPERS!!!!

I would genuinely like an answer to this that isn't an appeal to the authority of the Catalyst.

[Tritium315]

MrLee95 wrote...

And the OP was never heard from again, just like 90% of "these" kinds of threads.

Moving on!!!!

Well you see he already deunked the plot holes dude; his job is totally done here. The ending makes absolute sense now!

[kakomu]

BasementDweller wrote...

 I've been thinking, since the universe will eventually experience a heat death, does that mean I have free reign to kill people to save them from it? After all, unlike the Catalyst's reason, it is inevitable.

Well, to that extent, The Sun's evolution is increasing its temperature over time. After another few billion years, the sun will be too hot for liquid to exist on the surface. Eventually, the Sun will turn into a Red Giant, which may swallow the mass of Earth. Eventually, the Sun will turn into a cooling white dwarf.

[Iconoclaste]

Lots of "if... then..." is called "speculation". We use that to fill-in plot holes.

[WizenSlinky0]

The Angry One wrote...

Krogan nearly wiped themselves out in a nuclear war.
They could kill all other organics then kill themselves, using your logic.

It is a problem that only exists in their minds.

Billions of years of THEM killing organics. Of all the examples of AI both in this cycle and the Protheans, organic life was never threatened.

Hell, the major synthetic threat in the Prothean cycle WERE HYBRIDS. Do you understand that? Even if they won, organic life would still exist.

This is a slippery slope fallacy, and again. Krogan need nothing else to survive, and they are quite capable of wiping out themselves.

They are proof, especially when THERE IS NO PROOF TO THE CONTRARY.
Zero. None whatsoever. We have only the Catalyst's word. That's it.

I can not contemplate any feasible way of the Krogan to doom all organic life unless you believe organic life to only be considered intelligent beings. That's not what they are saying.

We're talking everything from grass, plants, cockroaches, and bugs to the highest and more advanced life-form. Organic life needs organic life to survive. Krogans included. Yeah they almost killed themselves on Tuchanka. But they didn't come ANYWHERE CLOSE to killing all organic life on the planet. They just changes the type of organic life that thrives.

But Synthetics don't require any form of organic life to survive. They could naturally over time completely eliminate organic life because nothing they build, create, or need requires it. They could turn every planet into one giant metal construct over time. Unable to sustain ANY FORM of life other than synthetic.

It doesn't matter if there's no examples. We don't need them to consider the possibility to be a logical one. You don't have to agree that it's a LIKELY one. But it's a logical one. What did you want them to do, give you a history lesson of the billion years before the reapers began about everything that went wrong with synthetics?

It is not a plot hole and it is not illogical. It's just not flushed out. There's a huge difference.

And the Krogan do need things. Sorry, but I don't know what world you live in where Krogan don't eat. What they eat is organic. All organic life requires other organic life to survive and I'd say it's almost impossible for us, as organics, to eliminate all organic life.

[Heather Cline]

Problem with your debunking theory. The catalyst uses circular logic. It created the reapers to harvest life in the galaxy to prevent synthetics from killing organics. The Reapers are still killing organics. That is the entire point the reapers are synthetics, they are killing organics. It doesn't matter if the organics become a reaper the end result is the same the organic races die and any that are left from the current cycle eventually die out from indoctrination or lack of food, resources and so on and so forth.

The fact is the circular logic is easily broken and the Geth only rebelled against the creators after their creators attacked them first. In fact they did not want to fight against the Quarians in the first place and still didn't even when the Quarians went to war against them in the game.

Fact is the Quarians were at fault and it was Shepard that finally got them to see it. So no your debunking of the circular logic issue doesn't stand on anything but hot air and that really leaves it to falling flat on it's face.

[Jonwes]

Tritium315 wrote...



"In this thread I shall debunk plot holes, by debunking things that are not plot holes, thus proving there are no plot holes."



Is that you starchild?

Uh, don't blame me for the stupid people writing stupid articles calling these plot holes.

MrLee95 wrote...

And the OP was never heard from again, just like 90% of "these" kinds of threads.

Moving on!!!!

Where has the OP gone to? I thought I was the OP? And I'm still standing.

JPN17 wrote...

The reason it's a plot hole is because if the god child was around in ME1 then it could have opened the citadel relay to dark space and let the reapers in. There was really no need for Sovereign or any of his minions at all. It's indicated that Sovereign may have taken centuries between the time when the signal it sent to the citadel failed and when it assaulted the citadel. I guess the god child just doesn't like Sovereign?

I have played ME1. But it's been a number of years. This did not come up in any article that I've read, but that does seem like a big ol' plot hole to me.

[achilles000001]

What I don't understand is the Catalyst says the created always rebel against the creator, so using his logic shouldn't the reapers have rebelled against him?

[lofte_2000]

Bantz wrote...

OP not making any sense. The catalyst said the created will always rebel against the creators. Geth didn't rebel, if they wanted to wipe out the quarians they could have but they let them go once the quarians had fled.

As I understood it, the Geth began asking 'questions' that the Quarians couldn't or didn't want to answer.  The Quarian's solution was to disable them all so in self defense they attacked and the Quarian's fled - putting it simply.

Modifié par lofte_2000, 27 mars 2012 - 06:29 .

[lofte_2000]

achilles000001 wrote...

What I don't understand is the Catalyst says the created always rebel against the creator, so using his logic shouldn't the reapers have rebelled against him?

Directly using his logic, yes.

[Tritium315]

Jonwes wrote...

As for the Illusive Man, all I've read is confusion over how he got on the Citadel. If the issue is how he got to the control room... I assumed that he was on the station before it was moved. Is this directly contradicted by the game? As for why he was allowed to the control room... he was already indoctrinated. He wasn't a threat to the Reapers, in fact he was probably directed there in case someone came to mess with the Citadel. Also, the Citadel was reconfiguring as you walk into it. It makes sense that when the Citadel was reconfigured that the control room was "revealed" and even if it wasn't, the Reapers probably directed him there. How he got control of Anderson, I assumed it happened through the console. But I can't say I know.

And again, saying "Oh yeah, you got that one but answer some more duuuuuuhhh" is silly because I freely acknowledge some things don't make sense. I'm just trying to clear out some of the sillier ones that keep popping up in articles.

There are some I totally do not understand either. Like, for instance, the magically transporting crew members.

Out of all the threads I've seen on this forum there's been like maybe one post about someone being confused about how TIM got on the citadel.

As for the second issue you addressed, no one is confused by that either. Hell, it's not even a plot hole. Everyone understands the whole "pruning" idea. The reason people don't like it is because it makes no sense; it's awful logic and a race of billion year old synthetic/organic hybrids should have been able to come up with any number of better plans.

[DocDoomII]

The Angry One wrote...

Jonwes wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...


The fact that the Star Kid is there at all is a plot hole. It would be different if he was there in ME 1. But he isn't.

He's not a plot hole, he'd be a deus ex machina. He's a plot device, not a plot hole. Whether he's a successful plot device or not is largely subjective. I have mixed feelings on the subject.

But to say he is a plot hole - that he goes against the flow of logic or is inconsistent with the established universe doesn't seem right to me. I mean, it's arguable (and I'm sure some will) but honestly from the start we were told that the Reapers were part of some greater plan. They were the "End Kindlers" as the Hannar called them. The Reapers didn't NEED a master, but the fact that they had one is not altogether surprising. If there is a greater plan evidenced by the actions of the Reapers, then it is not illogical that there should be some central planner involved.

Now, whether you LIKE that there is a planner or not is another matter. I'm a bit torn about it. But it doesn't make it a plot hole.

It is a plot hole. The Catalyst controls the Citadel (control ending, closes the Citadel).
Therefore Sovereign was redundant. As were the Collectors.

I pointed it out on first page, but no one cares about me

[Saul Iscariot]

MrLee95 wrote...

And the OP was never heard from again, just like 90% of "these" kinds of threads.

Moving on!!!!

He posted a full five minutes before Mister Impatient.

[Jonwes]

Tritium315 wrote...

MrLee95 wrote...

And the OP was never heard from again, just like 90% of "these" kinds of threads.

Moving on!!!!

Well you see he already deunked the plot holes dude; his job is totally done here. The ending makes absolute sense now!

Yep, he hasn't posted in 30 second. He sure did run out of here quick. Man, we sure are cool.

BTW - my lunch break is over. I have a job. So I won't post for a while. Try not to miss me.

[Lili77]

beetlebailey123 wrote...

It's flawed logic. the two AI's that we see in the game are not in fact evil. The catalyst says that we wipe out the organic races who are advanced so they won't be wiped out by their creations. While he's saying that the geth are trying to help strengthen the Quarians immune system. At least in my playthrough. ALSO remember the geth did not destroy the Quarians when they were fleeing.

Legion also told Shepard in ME2 that Geths preserve Rannoch and are acting a bit like caretakers (even if this concept is difficultly understandable by Geths). Seems they have some empathy for their creators.

[Devos]

Jonwes wrote...

The Reapers are "pruning" the populace and getting rid of only the most advanced civilizations and the synthetics (or taking over the synthetics.) This gets rid of the synthetics to prevent them from destroying ALL life and gets rid of the beings capable of producing more synthetics... for a time. They leave the young races. The idea is that in this way non-synthetics are never totally wiped out. Seems clear enough.

I actually agreed with that at first but having thought about it I can't really see a scenario where the ascendant power would wipe out ALL synthetic life whenever it arose. I mean the whole scenario is based on something becoming so advanced it's unassailable, even by the reapers. If it was that powerful it would hit a point where it didn't care about organic life one way or the other. If the argument was that such a power would, I don't know, effect the entire galaxy so much that as a side effect organic life couldn't exist that would still be a reach but sort of make sense. But that's not what he says, he says the created will always get ansy and try to strike down all organic life, just because.

The reapers repeatedly do something which is only marginally preferable to prevent a worst case scenario which isn't inevitable.

I don't disagree because I don't understand what he's saying, I disagree because it's stupid. It doesn't add up.

That's not even the problem with the ending, the antagonist should be saying something you disagree with, the problem is you are not allowed to disagree with it.

[Baronesa]

The ONLY command a geth refused was to be "turned off" AKA die, and that geth kept asking what has he done wrong so he can correct it and KEEP SERVING, and stating that he wanted to SERVE... what a horrible thing to do for that geth to refuse such command!

As Angry pointed out, geth tried to go out peacefully only to see their Quarian "owner" be ruthlessly murdered. All those Quarians that supported the Geth are remembered, with PERFECT recollection, I might add. In the consensus the "memories" there are as fresh as new.

Let's look at other AI, shall we? what about the gambling AI that was funneling credits so it could LEAVE the Citadel PEACEFULLY? in the end it was so SCARED (emotions... that inidcates something... what is it..? uhmm I can't place that word...), so scared that prefered to commit suicide and take the danger out with itself, even though MY Shepard tried to help. That reaction of complete fear, leading to such levels of desperation is a decision made by a Self Aware being.. a living being.

The Geth are also curious, they gather data of EVERY species trying to UNDERSTAND THEM, not to conquer them or attack them. The only instances on which Geth have attacked others have been in self defense or the "Heretics" that served the Reapers.

Now, regarding the logic by the Catalyst. It is a faulty logic, because the first premise (the created will always rebel against the creators) is unfalsifiable... and we see the reasoning here... EVEN when we provide 2 concise pieces of evidence showing that IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THAT WAY (Geth and EDI), the cop out is... that is short term. So basically, there is always a cop out to keep the "validity" of the premise EVEN AGAINST evidence to the contrary.

Then we have the implications of the Catalyst's logic. And those are really clear. The assumptions taken by the Catalyst are used to justify not only the genocide of synthetic life forms but also all the space faring civilizations of the Galaxy... the "culling", as he calls it. Are we really expected to accept such monstrous claims? Are we really expected to partake willingly on the plans of a genocidal entity that has destroyed complete civilizations for millions if not billions of years?.

Sure, the civilizations are not destroyed, they are "stored in reaper form", destroying their individuality, their self determination, becoming just part of the sick cycle of genocide. Well, for me that is a horrible way to destroy a complete civilization. And FOR WHAT? so the possibility of a race of syntheticss appearing and fulfilling the twisted "prophecy" of the catalyst is avoided? The Geth already appeared, and they have no interest in attacking at all, in fact their interest was to make a Dyson's sphere... Can you think of a more peaceful thing?

I honestly have no words to see how a few people can swallow the catalyst words and accept the premises given there. Those are the same argument given by the Dalatrass against the Krogan. The Krogan MAY rebel... may become violent... we would not be able to stop them... Is that really what you want us as players to accept?


EDIT: Forgive typos and other flaws, as english is NOT my first language.

Modifié par Baronesa, 27 mars 2012 - 06:32 .

[The Angry One]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I can not contemplate any feasible way of the Krogan to doom all organic life unless you believe organic life to only be considered intelligent beings. That's not what they are saying.

I'm using your logic. The Krogan do not actually require garden worlds, they can survive in much harsher conditions.
Therefore they could glass every planet in the galaxy on a whim. Again, using your logic.

We're talking everything from grass, plants, cockroaches, and bugs to the highest and more advanced life-form. Organic life needs organic life to survive. Krogans included. Yeah they almost killed themselves on Tuchanka. But they didn't come ANYWHERE CLOSE to killing all organic life on the planet. They just changes the type of organic life that thrives.

Eventually the Krogan will grow so belligerent that they will see all organic life as the enemy, from ants to thresher maws. They will systematically destroy everything because Krogans, rar!

You don't like it when your logic is applied against you, do you?

But Synthetics don't require any form of organic life to survive. They could naturally over time completely eliminate organic life because nothing they build, create, or need requires it. They could turn every planet into one giant metal construct over time. Unable to sustain ANY FORM of life other than synthetic.

And the Krogan could turn every world into a venusian hot house.
You have yet to explain WHY they would do this, when the Geth have demonstrated that they would not.

It doesn't matter if there's no examples. We don't need them to consider the possibility to be a logical one. You don't have to agree that it's a LIKELY one. But it's a logical one. What did you want them to do, give you a history lesson of the billion years before the reapers began about everything that went wrong with synthetics?

The Catalyst has no proof. The only problems caused in the galaxy are by the Reapers themselves.

It is not a plot hole and it is not illogical. It's just not flushed out. There's a huge difference.

Slippery slopes and appeals to authority are logical fallacies.

And the Krogan do need things. Sorry, but I don't know what world you live in where Krogan don't eat. What they eat is organic. All organic life requires other organic life to survive and I'd say it's almost impossible for us, as organics, to eliminate all organic life.

They do not need the same things as us, therefore they will wipe out all organic life not suited to them, then wipe out the remainder and themselves due to their belligerence.
Do you have billion year proof that they won't?

[viperabyss]

Jonwes wrote...

2. The Catalyst's Logic Makes No Sense

Not sure why people are having trouble understand the cycle thing. People keep saying "why do they use synthetics to kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics?" The answer - that's not what the Catalyst is saying at all.

The Reapers are "pruning" the populace and getting rid of only the most advanced civilizations and the synthetics (or taking over the synthetics.) This gets rid of the synthetics to prevent them from destroying ALL life and gets rid of the beings capable of producing more synthetics... for a time. They leave the young races. The idea is that in this way non-synthetics are never totally wiped out. Seems clear enough.

Also, using the possible Geth/Quarian peace as an example to say the Catalyst is wrong is silly. The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point. The fact that Shepard (might have) brokered a peace doesn't change that, nor does it prevent other organics from making other synthetics in the future  that will rebel and destroy all organic life as the Catalyst fears. The Catalyst has seen this happen over and over. His reference point is not as limited as our experience.

Now, whether Shepard should just believe what the Catalyst says is another matter, but what he actually says is not illogical.

But it is also said the Reapers deliberately left mass relay technology for organics to discover, in order to advance along the path desirable by the Reapers.

So, Reapers developed mass relay technology for the organics to find, so they can develope along the path Reapers desired, so the organics can be pruned to prevent them from being destroyed by their own synthetics creation.

Yo dawg....

[The Angry One]

DocDoomII wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Jonwes wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...


The fact that the Star Kid is there at all is a plot hole. It would be different if he was there in ME 1. But he isn't.

He's not a plot hole, he'd be a deus ex machina. He's a plot device, not a plot hole. Whether he's a successful plot device or not is largely subjective. I have mixed feelings on the subject.

But to say he is a plot hole - that he goes against the flow of logic or is inconsistent with the established universe doesn't seem right to me. I mean, it's arguable (and I'm sure some will) but honestly from the start we were told that the Reapers were part of some greater plan. They were the "End Kindlers" as the Hannar called them. The Reapers didn't NEED a master, but the fact that they had one is not altogether surprising. If there is a greater plan evidenced by the actions of the Reapers, then it is not illogical that there should be some central planner involved.

Now, whether you LIKE that there is a planner or not is another matter. I'm a bit torn about it. But it doesn't make it a plot hole.

It is a plot hole. The Catalyst controls the Citadel (control ending, closes the Citadel).
Therefore Sovereign was redundant. As were the Collectors.

I pointed it out on first page, but no one cares about me

If it's any comfort people keep skipping over my points too. People read what they want to read.

[WizenSlinky0]

The Angry One wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

You're thinking generally. I'm thinking contextually. And in context yes, the reapers would find it easier to predict how organics think than they would synthetics. Because the reapers are not synthetics but hybrids based on organic minds.

This is why Sovereign predicted that organics would counter the Rachni with their own proxy army.
This is why Sovereign predicted Shepard would find a way to get to the Citadel and stop it.
This is why Harbinger predicted Liara would snatch Shepard's body right under his nose.
This is why Harbinger predicted Shepard would be able to get to the Collector base and eliminate the human Reaper.
This is why Harbinger predicted Shepard would destroy the alpha relay.

Oh, wait.

*sigh* More predictable and Predictable don't mean the same things. The reapers understand how organic minds work because they are based on organic minds. We understand how organic minds work too, but do we know what everyone else is thinking? No. But because we work on the same foundations we're able to empathize and at least try to understand the thought processes behind it...when we want to.

How could you possibily do that with the Geth? You're fooling yourself if you think they even remotely approach problems in even a partially similar way as we do.

[FemmeShep]

Jonwes wrote...

As for the Illusive Man, all I've read is confusion over how he got on the Citadel. If the issue is how he got to the control room... I assumed that he was on the station before it was moved. Is this directly contradicted by the game? As for why he was allowed to the control room... he was already indoctrinated. He wasn't a threat to the Reapers, in fact he was probably directed there in case someone came to mess with the Citadel. Also, the Citadel was reconfiguring as you walk into it. It makes sense that when the Citadel was reconfigured that the control room was "revealed" and even if it wasn't, the Reapers probably directed him there. How he got control of Anderson, I assumed it happened through the console. But I can't say I know.

And again, saying "Oh yeah, you got that one but answer some more duuuuuuhhh" is silly because I freely acknowledge some things don't make sense. I'm just trying to clear out some of the sillier ones that keep popping up in articles.

There are some I totally do not understand either. Like, for instance, the magically transporting crew members.

Still continuing to ignore the real plot hole with the Star Child logic I see...




Look, it's hard for anyone to take your thread seriously, when the first thing in your thread is about Star Child not being a plot hole. Yet, the part you highlighted about Star Child was not the plot hole (it was terribly written/circular logic, but not a plot hole).

Again (for the billionth time) - the plot hole is how Star Child doesn't line up with the continuity of the rest of the plot. The very existance of him, and how he controls them all as a system, is a plot hole. 

ME1: Reapers think organic life is a mistake ME3: their entire purpose is to serve Organics (in a higher sense). 

ME1: Reapers are individuals, seperate entities. ME3: They are a system controlled by Star Child.

THAT is the plot hole. Not what you posted in your OP. That's just a comment on why you think is Circular logic makes sense. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 27 mars 2012 - 06:36 .

[ImmovableMover]

Point 1 is sort of passable but seeing as the illusive man enters from behind shepard, using the only hallway to that room, through the only door to the hallway, It implies that either TIM is hiding amongst the rotting corpses waiting for Shepard to pass just to sneak up on him or is hanging off the side of the bridge for the same reason.

Him being on the citadel is not the problem, him being where he is given the context IS the problem

And i'm sorry but the problem with point 2 is not "That plan wouldn't work", but that it is ILLOGICAL, INEFFICIENT and CONTRADICTORY; No hyper-intelligent race of machines would choose that course of action for the end result. Their course of action defeats the purpose of their action (Amongst other glaring problems)

Say there is an ant hill in my garden and it is ruining my scenic view - Sure a tactical nuclear strike ought to do the trick, and short-sighted people can go "HERP BUT DER WOUDNT BE ANYMOR ANTS" but that doesn't make nuking your garden appear in even the top 100 "intelligent ways to remove an ant hill" list, it doesn't make it "logical" just because it works.

Your debunks are soundly flawed. Try again.

[Iconoclaste]

Of course, nothing is "impossible", in theory. But being realistic means to shun some of the "extremely improbable possibilities" to focus on more probable ones. The Reapers did not seem to be "realistic".

How could the even address what was an "advanced species", in the first place?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 mars 2012 - 06:34 .

[Beliyaal]

Never mind that if the reapers were that concerned about the rise of synthetic life, they could've just stuck around in the galaxy and enforced the "nobody build any AIs, y'hear?" law really hard.