349 réponses à ce sujet

[IndustrializedTaco]

I mean it's like the catalyst watched Terminator, and said YEP THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS

[thrawn8586]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Krogan nearly wiped themselves out in a nuclear war.
They could kill all other organics then kill themselves, using your logic.

It is a problem that only exists in their minds.

Billions of years of THEM killing organics. Of all the examples of AI both in this cycle and the Protheans, organic life was never threatened.

Hell, the major synthetic threat in the Prothean cycle WERE HYBRIDS. Do you understand that? Even if they won, organic life would still exist.

This is a slippery slope fallacy, and again. Krogan need nothing else to survive, and they are quite capable of wiping out themselves.

They are proof, especially when THERE IS NO PROOF TO THE CONTRARY.
Zero. None whatsoever. We have only the Catalyst's word. That's it.

I can not contemplate any feasible way of the Krogan to doom all organic life unless you believe organic life to only be considered intelligent beings. That's not what they are saying.

We're talking everything from grass, plants, cockroaches, and bugs to the highest and more advanced life-form. Organic life needs organic life to survive. Krogans included. Yeah they almost killed themselves on Tuchanka. But they didn't come ANYWHERE CLOSE to killing all organic life on the planet. They just changes the type of organic life that thrives.

But Synthetics don't require any form of organic life to survive. They could naturally over time completely eliminate organic life because nothing they build, create, or need requires it. They could turn every planet into one giant metal construct over time. Unable to sustain ANY FORM of life other than synthetic.

It doesn't matter if there's no examples. We don't need them to consider the possibility to be a logical one. You don't have to agree that it's a LIKELY one. But it's a logical one. What did you want them to do, give you a history lesson of the billion years before the reapers began about everything that went wrong with synthetics?

It is not a plot hole and it is not illogical. It's just not flushed out. There's a huge difference.

And the Krogan do need things. Sorry, but I don't know what world you live in where Krogan don't eat. What they eat is organic. All organic life requires other organic life to survive and I'd say it's almost impossible for us, as organics, to eliminate all organic life.

The problem with this is that you have to accept the starchild's argument that synthetics have and will be killing organics for all time, when we have one example of this being untrue (see the Geth) and one example of organics being able to stop synthetics from destroying organics (see prothean vs synthetics).  If the starchild had presented some specific examples, then it would be easier to accept his logic, but he doesn't.  He makes a general claim that is disproven based on what we have seen from synthetic life.

Just because synthetics CAN live without organic life is not enough of proof to say that they will try to eliminate all organic life.

[Naqey]

yeah those 2 things are like the BIGGEST plotholes the game has at the end? not the whole normandy / squad mate thing and so on ~~

[Iconoclaste]

The Reapers motivation would also need to apply to synthetics that created other synthetics for any purpose, then, since at one point in time, their own "creations will rebel against them". Nope. This only applies to organics, it seems.

[MrLee95]

Jonwes wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

MrLee95 wrote...

And the OP was never heard from again, just like 90% of "these" kinds of threads.

Moving on!!!!

Well you see he already deunked the plot holes dude; his job is totally done here. The ending makes absolute sense now!

Yep, he hasn't posted in 30 second. He sure did run out of here quick. Man, we sure are cool.

BTW - my lunch break is over. I have a job. So I won't post for a while. Try not to miss me.

Ahh you did come back!! 

Well played, KUDOS!!

USALLY most just post and run, so my hats off to ya!
BUT this all has been posted before x10!! Just sayin! 

[OchreJelly]

As others have stated, I believe some people are confusing some terms "plot-hole" and "logic leap" and just following the theories and ideas of others. But that doesn't make the original ideas presented any less valid. Otherwise we'd have to discard all knowledge because some dumb person adheres to it somewhere...

Jonwes wrote...

Destroying synthetics does not prevent them from being developed by organics again in the future.

Neither do the Catalyst's "solutions" prevent it from happening again. Why Shepard's presence and/or the Crucible itself, changes the logic of the Catalyst, I have no idea. If anything his stubborn "logic" only fit if he adamantly sticks to them.

• Reaper Default: Doesn't solve the "problem", advanced synthetics return, advanced life culled by Reapers again.
• Destroy Option: Reapers, most tech, and synthetics destroyed. Still quite possible 50,000+ years in the future that they build those darned genocidal synthetics again.
• Synthesis Option: Also till quite possible 50,000+ years in the future that they build those darned genocidal synthetics again, unless somehow the forced homogenization of all life removed free will. And the Reapers are still there.
• Control Option: Again, quite possible 50,000+ years in the future that they build those darned genocidal synthetics again. Oh and the Reapers could still come back if Reaper-Shep changes his mind.

Besides all that, the Reapers are essentially getting genocidal about a problem they help propagate via the Mass Relays. Organics "develop along the paths [they] desire" after all.

In the end most people are just upset at the bad storytelling shift at the end, but perhaps do not have the words to accurately describe it and slip into buzzword-hivemind mode. *shrug*

Modifié par OchreJelly, 27 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[Saul Iscariot]

Maybe the Catalyst has a problem with TV talent shows replacing real bands?

[Beliyaal]

beetlebailey123 wrote...

I mean it's like the catalyst watched Terminator, and said YEP THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS

BASICALLY. And, I mean, that's the exact mistake the Quarians made. They saw their robots become sentient and said "OH CRAP! I'VE SEEN THE MATRIX! I KNOW HOW THIS ENDS! PREEMPTIVE STRIKE!"


Which makes the reapers and the catalyst exactly as intelligent as Han'Garell. Except I don't get to sucker-punch them. 

Modifié par Beliyaal, 27 mars 2012 - 06:39 .

[WizenSlinky0]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm using your logic. The Krogan do not actually require garden worlds, they can survive in much harsher conditions.
Therefore they could glass every planet in the galaxy on a whim. Again, using your logic.

Eventually the Krogan will grow so belligerent that they will see all organic life as the enemy, from ants to thresher maws. They will systematically destroy everything because Krogans, rar!

You don't like it when your logic is applied against you, do you?

And the Krogan could turn every world into a venusian hot house.
You have yet to explain WHY they would do this, when the Geth have demonstrated that they would not.

The Catalyst has no proof. The only problems caused in the galaxy are by the Reapers themselves.

Slippery slopes and appeals to authority are logical fallacies.

They do not need the same things as us, therefore they will wipe out all organic life not suited to them, then wipe out the remainder and themselves due to their belligerence.
Do you have billion year proof that they won't?

You really want nothing else but a pissing contest, don't you? I'm pretty much done with this, I think. I'm responding to your posts because I respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it. However you seem more interested in other things.

But anyway, they would not glass every world. Even the Krogan understand the basic premise of survival if only on a subconscious level sometimes. Your use of "my logic" is terrible. It's not even remotely what I'm saying and I'm starting to get the picture that nothing I say will be taken in properly by you. That is not an attack on your intelligence, mind you, but that our approaches to this subject differ too wildly.

Organic life will never destroy organic life. Nothing in the known universe organics create, or the mass effect universe, that I know of could completely elminate it. Including the Krogan. However I can concievably consider a scenario that is logical where Synthetic life destroys it.

So again, it is logical. It may not be a probable solution. It may or may not be backed up by facts deep into the past. But it makes sense.

And that's all I have to say on the subject, to you anyway.

Have a wonderful day.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 27 mars 2012 - 06:38 .

[IndustrializedTaco]

Why would the reapers leave the Mass Relays, and allow them to advance so they could wipe them out so they won't be wiped out by synthetics?

[MustacheManatee]

I think you put about as much effort into "debunking" plot holes, as the writing team did in the game. Weak post OP.

[turian_rage]

Now bioWare needs to explain the rest of the confusions and I'd be willing to accept the ending. and not just a few, but ALL of them.

[IndustrializedTaco]

Beliyaal wrote...

beetlebailey123 wrote...

I mean it's like the catalyst watched Terminator, and said YEP THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS

BASICALLY. And, I mean, that's the exact mistake the Quarians made. They saw their robots become sentient and said "OH CRAP! I'VE SEEN THE MATRIX! I KNOW HOW THIS ENDS! PREEMPTIVE STRIKE!"


Which makes the reapers and the catalyst exactly as intelligent as Han'Garell

Which in the end kinda takes away their credibilty. Basically saying we totally saw this happen before. With a previous race so like you'll do it to.

[Jonathan Shepard]

The game goes out of its way on Rannoch to show that the Quarians started the war out of fear, and the Geth only fought to defend themselves, much like the game specifically tells you where TIM went.

The game never tells you if the Reapers just let him walk onto the Citadel or whatever. That's the problem. He claims to still be fighting the Reapers- if that were so, how the heck did he actually get there? It's fine that he is. It's the how and why that we're missing.

So, only one out of something like 10 is barely explained here. Nice try though.

[MeldarthX]

Jonwes wrote...

I thought it would be good to have a thread to debunk some of the "plot holes" that people keep regurgitating because they saw the Angry Joe video or one of the articles that have ripped it off. The fact of the matter is that while there are surely things to be annoyed/disappointed with as far as the ending goes, there are some things people keep bringing up that really don't seem like an issue. There are two that are driving me nuts reading about again and again:

1. Why did the Illusive Man show up? How did he get to the Citadel?
People keep acting surprised that he showed up and wonder how he got there...

BUT

We are told the Illusive Man has gone to the Citadel. We are told this in the game. I wasn't surprised to see him there in the end because as we are raiding Cronos station we are specifically told that the Illusive Man is gone and that he's gone to the Citadel. I can't remember if Kai Leng or EDI said it in my play through, but it was specifically mentioned. He was there to use the Crucible for his own end game plans.

2. The Catalyst's Logic Makes No Sense

Not sure why people are having trouble understand the cycle thing. People keep saying "why do they use synthetics to kill organics to prevent synthetics from killing organics?" The answer - that's not what the Catalyst is saying at all.

The Reapers are "pruning" the populace and getting rid of only the most advanced civilizations and the synthetics (or taking over the synthetics.) This gets rid of the synthetics to prevent them from destroying ALL life and gets rid of the beings capable of producing more synthetics... for a time. They leave the young races. The idea is that in this way non-synthetics are never totally wiped out. Seems clear enough.

Also, using the possible Geth/Quarian peace as an example to say the Catalyst is wrong is silly. The Geth DID rebel against their creators at one point. The fact that Shepard (might have) brokered a peace doesn't change that, nor does it prevent other organics from making other synthetics in the future  that will rebel and destroy all organic life as the Catalyst fears. The Catalyst has seen this happen over and over. His reference point is not as limited as our experience.

Now, whether Shepard should just believe what the Catalyst says is another matter, but what he actually says is not illogical.

Ok - but - mass plot hole which invalids ME1 - if Catalyst controls the reapers *coughs it doesn't* then why did Soverien have to goto the Cid to manually activate the relay there to bring everyone in.  Why didn't he just call the Catalyst to do it?

Second - Geth only stood up to protect the Quarians that were trying to save them from being destroyed - The Geth could have at any point wiped out the Quarians during that war - they didn't - they let them go once Quarians retreated.  They didn't bother them at all.......or anyone Until.......the reapers......and the new war with the Geth - who attacks first again?  The Quarians.......

The Geth don't want to kill anyone - they just want to stay alive...

There's that - then there is the whole forshadowing of Dark Matter in the first two games which is completely dropped in the 3rd game - in 10 minutes they completely destroy one of the most perfect enemies ever created the Reapers - with that statement.......I control the Reapers.....which is in itself a contridiction from the other games.  Again plot holes.....

Only way the ending makes any possible sense is its indoctrination attempt - and we're left with a cliffhanger; becaust a Deus Machina ending shoehorned in ..........doesn't fit; doesn't work in this universe.....

[The Angry One]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

You really want nothing else but a pissing contest, don't you? I'm pretty much done with this, I think. I'm responding to your posts because I respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it. However you seem more interested in other things.

I'm pointing out that you're using faulty logic.

But anyway, they would not glass every world. Even the Krogan understand the basic premise of survival if only on a subconscious level sometimes. Your use of "my logic" is terrible. It's not even remotely what I'm saying and I'm starting to get the picture that nothing I say will be taken in properly by you. That is not an attack on your intelligence, mind you, but that our approaches to this subject differ too wildly.

It is exactly the same as your logic. You are making wild assumptions based on minimal evidence.
I am doing the same. Except I actually have more evidence because the Krogan HAVE tried to conquer the galaxy and HAVE tried to nuke themselves at least once.

Organic life will never destroy organic life.

Synthetic life will never destroy organic life.
Please give a single example of synthetic life in the Mass Effect universe even coming close to destroying organic life.

Nothing in the known universe organics create, or the mass effect universe, that I know of could completely elminate it. Including the Krogan. However I can concievably consider a scenario that is logical where Synthetic life destroys it.

Even though it never has. NEVER.
I also notice you ignored the point about the Prothean cycle hybrids.

So again, it is logical. It may not be a probable solution. It may or may not be backed up by facts deep into the past. But it makes sense.

And that's all I have to say on the subject, to you anyway.

Have a wonderful day.

You are merely repeating yourself. I have told you time and again why you are wrong, and you are reacting like the Reaper in Mass Deffect 10. "NO NO NOOOOO!!!!".

[Tleining]

Huyna wrote...


Scenes in Consensus were very powerfull and insightful, yes. But there is a chance, that they were picked deliberatley for Sheppard to see.
Legion did lie to him before.
And, if i am not mistaken, geth did refuse to obey "shut yourself down" command - that was adressed by two scientists back in Consensus.

sorry if this has been answered before, but: When?
I know that Legion has been keeping things from us. But i don't remember an outright lie.
And SHEPARD has done the same to Legion (Quarian Experiments).

[Beliyaal]

beetlebailey123 wrote...

Beliyaal wrote...

beetlebailey123 wrote...

I mean it's like the catalyst watched Terminator, and said YEP THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS

BASICALLY. And, I mean, that's the exact mistake the Quarians made. They saw their robots become sentient and said "OH CRAP! I'VE SEEN THE MATRIX! I KNOW HOW THIS ENDS! PREEMPTIVE STRIKE!"


Which makes the reapers and the catalyst exactly as intelligent as Han'Garell

Which in the end kinda takes away their credibilty. Basically saying we totally saw this happen before. With a previous race so like you'll do it to.

Exactly. It's Quarian Logic all over again. The same logic that the first half of the game spent a lot of time telling us is completely idiotic.

[TheMerchantMan]

I believe the "plothole" regarding the Illusive Man is not "why is he there?" but "how?". More specifically how did he get behind you, how did he get on the Citadel at all. The Reapers apparently are no friend to the Illusive Man. So it is up for question.

Also why did he bring no back-up? For a man routinely obsessed with security, he didn't even bring his own pistol to his final confrontation with Shepard. Your telling me Illusive Man just booked a private flight to a Reaper controlled citadel, docked and didn't get a attacked by a single person dead or alive on the way to this magical inner sanctum? That's a stretch, if not a full plot hole.

Similarly the problem with the Catalyst's logic is not that it is flawed in the notion that it isn't one of many plausible solution, but that the premise is incorrect and even assuming it was, the solution is stupid. Not logically flawed, but stupid.

In the same sense that a logical answer to "how do you kill a fly?" can be "with a flamethrower", yet that is still a very stupid answer. Logically consistent, but stupid.

[DocDoomII]

beetlebailey123 wrote...

Why would the reapers leave the Mass Relays, and allow them to advance so they could wipe them out so they won't be wiped out by synthetics?

The most reasonable solution to this would be that they use evolved species to 'reproduce' and build new reapers.
Giving them the mass relayes allow the new 'rising' species to spread on more than one planet and grow exponentially in number thus granting a bigger harvest every 50.000 years.
The 50.000 years limit would have been more logical if they noticed that it was the approximate time needed for a 'higher' species to develop a syinthetic race that could rebel and destroy its creator and by doing so ruin the harvest.

Modifié par DocDoomII, 27 mars 2012 - 06:47 .

[WizenSlinky0]

thrawn8586 wrote...
The problem with this is that you have to accept the starchild's argument that synthetics have and will be killing organics for all time, when we have one example of this being untrue (see the Geth) and one example of organics being able to stop synthetics from destroying organics (see prothean vs synthetics).  If the starchild had presented some specific examples, then it would be easier to accept his logic, but he doesn't.  He makes a general claim that is disproven based on what we have seen from synthetic life.

Just because synthetics CAN live without organic life is not enough of proof to say that they will try to eliminate all organic life.

See, that comes full circle back to my point. The ending (which I found hugely unsatisfying) does not flush out the point. He never tells you outright that the Geth are irrelevent to the point. It's not a plothole, it's not illogical, it's just sloppily done. There's a big difference. I'm not debating that the catalyst is inherently correct. Only that his position has a logical basis when you approach this problem from a less narrow perspective.

He is "claiming" that he has enough proof that it WILL happen. Just as ferverently as many people are saying that it WON'T happen. Again, he is the villian. He has always been the villian alongside the reapers when you consider ME3. If you disagree with him you blow up the reapers and allow for self-determination to win the day. I did.

You're asking for the villian to have logic you agree with or in someway prove his position (which again requires agreement if he "proved" it), when it doesn't matter. It has a logical foundation and anything beyond that is just the hero vs the villian. The catalyst controls the reapers to continue the cycle because he believes, or the people who built him believes, based on whatever evidence they had...that this will inevitably happen.

Where did we get this weird idea that the catalyst has to be "right" to make sense?

[Beliyaal]

TheMerchantMan wrote...

For a man routinely obsessed with security, he didn't even bring his own pistol to his final confrontation with Shepard.

Right? He spends the last two games refusing to even exist in the same physical space with you for fear you'll try to kill him, and then he just saunters in without so much as a squad of bodyguards?

[Iconoclaste]

DocDoomII wrote...

beetlebailey123 wrote...

Why would the reapers leave the Mass Relays, and allow them to advance so they could wipe them out so they won't be wiped out by synthetics?

The most reasonable solution to this would be that they use evolved species to 'reproduce' and build new reapers.
Giving them the mass relayes allow the new 'rising' species to spread on more than one planet and grow exponentially in number thus granting a bigger harvest every 50.000 years.
The 50.000 years limit would have been more logical if they noticed that it was the approximate time needed for a 'higher' species to develop a syinthetic race that could rebel and destroy its creator and by doing so ruini the harvest.

Good point.

[J717]

Jonwes wrote...

As for the Illusive Man, all I've read is confusion over how he got on the Citadel. If the issue is how he got to the control room... I assumed that he was on the station before it was moved. Is this directly contradicted by the game? As for why he was allowed to the control room... he was already indoctrinated. He wasn't a threat to the Reapers, in fact he was probably directed there in case someone came to mess with the Citadel. Also, the Citadel was reconfiguring as you walk into it. It makes sense that when the Citadel was reconfigured that the control room was "revealed" and even if it wasn't, the Reapers probably directed him there. How he got control of Anderson, I assumed it happened through the console. But I can't say I know.

And again, saying "Oh yeah, you got that one but answer some more duuuuuuhhh" is silly because I freely acknowledge some things don't make sense. I'm just trying to clear out some of the sillier ones that keep popping up in articles.

There are some I totally do not understand either. Like, for instance, the magically transporting crew members.

And those are exactly WHY the ending is COMPLETE, UTTER, GARBAGE.

Lost of speculation from everyone!

[Saul Iscariot]

I thought Catalyst wanted TIM there to demonstrate a point. That TIM thought he was there of his own volition is by the by.