171 réponses à ce sujet

[KustomDeluxe]

This quote from ME2 about sums it up for me:
TIM: I made you Shephard! I brought you back from the dead!
Shephard:And I'm going to do what you brought me back to do. I'll fight and win this war without compromising the soul of our species.

Genocide (destroy), Forced "evolution" (Synthesis), and believing that the ends justify the means (control), compromise the soul of the species.

[Asharad Hett]

Tell me why Shepard would suddenly trust the antagonist of the last 5 years?

[Baronesa]

KustomDeluxe wrote...

This quote from ME2 about sums it up for me:
TIM: I made you Shephard! I brought you back from the dead!
Shephard:And I'm going to do what you brought me back to do. I'll fight and win this war without compromising the soul of our species.

Genocide (destroy), Forced "evolution" (Synthesis), and believing that the ends justify the means (control), compromise the soul of the species.

Thank you for bringing that quote!

[The Angry One]

Baronesa wrote...

KustomDeluxe wrote...

This quote from ME2 about sums it up for me:
TIM: I made you Shephard! I brought you back from the dead!
Shephard:And I'm going to do what you brought me back to do. I'll fight and win this war without compromising the soul of our species.

Genocide (destroy), Forced "evolution" (Synthesis), and believing that the ends justify the means (control), compromise the soul of the species.

Thank you for bringing that quote!

Indeed. It's an important quote. I keep part of the one that's related to it in my sig to remind me of what the real Shepard would do.
"We'll fight and win without it. I won't let fear compromise who I am."

It refers to the Collector Base but could equally be applied to the Crucible and spacebrat's amoral choices.

Modifié par The Angry One, 28 mars 2012 - 01:13 .

[dallicant]

 As I said in another thread, a lot of the problems would be solved if the StarChild were simply removed, and the implications of the endings made clearer.  I'm going to post what I wrote; I apologize if it seems too long or off-topic, but I do want people to see it.

Suppose Shepard kills the Illusive Man, and is now at the control panel. Everything's in place. Then, maybe through a VI, s/he's informed about what the Catalyst can do, namely connect to everything that uses Reaper technology. Meanwhile, it's clear that the war is being lost all around him/her. S/He has to act quickly. The VI presents three options:

1) Destroy - Like in the current ending, it would wipe out the Reapers as well as the mass relays all synthetic life that incorporates Reaper technology. This should be presented as an absolute disaster for the fleet and the survivors. Most will die in the ensuing dark age. However, it will ensure that the Reapers will never again be a threat.

2) Control - By hijacking the central control mechanism, Shepard will be able to control the Reapers. This basically puts him in the position of a god. From here, a few other choices should be available. The player could A) set order to the galaxy, leave the galaxy with the Reaper armada.

A might result in a finale that shows Shepard as a godlike being. This shouldn't be seen as unambiguously positive or negative; it could be a sign of great things to come, or a reign of terror beyond imagining.

B would both allow the galaxy to return to its former state. However, it should be left uncertain as to whether or not Shepard will fall victim to Indoctrination and return full force. At the very least, s/he bought the galaxy more time.

It also seems like having the Reapers self-destruct would be an option, but that honestly feels a little too pat. Maybe the only way to destroy them en masse is through the Destroy ending, which (by selecting Control) the player has presumably already rejected?

3) Synthesis - Many players were disturbed by how the Synthesis seemed to imply galactic homogenization without any input on the part of its inhabitants. So instead, this ending would bolster allied shields and weaponry, giving them a fighting chance against the Reapers. It'll still be a long and bloody battle, but (assuming one's EMS is high enough) galactic civilization can be saved and the Reapers wiped out for good should the allies succeed. The finale should show Earth having liberated itself from the Reapers, Shepard (who would survive in this ending) rallying the troops to keep on going forward.

In all cases, the epilogue should show your legacy. In Destroy, it probably won't matter much, B and C could both show some interesting ramifications for your choices.

So this is far from perfect, but I'd have been fairly happy with this as an ending. I think once the StarChild and his pseudo-philosophy is removed, the choices no longer seem so bad. What do you all think?

In a sense, this still limits the choice.  Shepard is forced to agree to a set of outcomes.  However, instead of an entity that claims omniscience, there are simply the hardware limitations of the Citadel.  Maybe this is splitting hairs, but I think it's an important distinction.  Furthermore, the costs and benefits of each ending are made clearer.

Modifié par dallicant, 28 mars 2012 - 01:21 .

[CronoDragoon]

Zenor wrote...
I see your point. The whole "Shepard doesn't at least try to argue". Understandable. Again I'm not really calling anyone out fully, as I just made the thread to find out why people think this way. In my eyes, I can see why someone would be in this state. I am enjoying reading people thought's on the matter though.

You are being very polite and I appreciate it personally. Let me expand by saying another thing: This series has-built into its very gameplay and dialogue system, a way for Shepard to have "get out of jail free" cards that can resolve situations to his liking. It's the Paragon/Renegade system. This isn't Dragon Age; most decisions in Mass Effect are based around building up your Par/Ren scores so you can use the dialogue wheel to resolve things successfully (Saren suicide, Tali loyalty mission, etc). Why abandon this system in the series' most important moment? As soon as I saw there was no Par/Ren choices coming, I was in a state of confusion and shock about the choices given.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 28 mars 2012 - 01:16 .

[RenownedRyan]

Shepard refused to accept that stopping Saren was impossible. Shepard refused to accept that it was a Suicide Mission. Shepard refused to compromise when faced with destroying the Batarian relay. Never compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon.

[Baronesa]

RenownedRyan wrote...

Shepard refused to accept that stopping Saren was impossible. Shepard refused to accept that it was a Suicide Mission. Shepard refused to compromise when faced with destroying the Batarian relay. Never compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon.

Uhmmm making Shepard sound like Rorschach... heh... I approve

[Reofeir]

KustomDeluxe wrote...

This quote from ME2 about sums it up for me:
TIM: I made you Shephard! I brought you back from the dead!
Shephard:And I'm going to do what you brought me back to do. I'll fight and win this war without compromising the soul of our species.

Genocide (destroy), Forced "evolution" (Synthesis), and believing that the ends justify the means (control), compromise the soul of the species.

So, I'm a bit confused by this statement. The end justify the means, being control, compromises the soul of the species how? Expand on that one for me. I understand the destroy and Synthesis being a compromise, but the control I still don't.

[RenownedRyan]

Baronesa wrote...

RenownedRyan wrote...

Shepard refused to accept that stopping Saren was impossible. Shepard refused to accept that it was a Suicide Mission. Shepard refused to compromise when faced with destroying the Batarian relay. Never compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon.

Uhmmm making Shepard sound like Rorschach... heh... I approve

Shepards Journal: October 12th, 2185  Hanar carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach.  This Citadel is afraid of me.  I have seen its true face.

Modifié par RenownedRyan, 28 mars 2012 - 01:19 .

[Reofeir]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Zenor wrote...
I see your point. The whole "Shepard doesn't at least try to argue". Understandable. Again I'm not really calling anyone out fully, as I just made the thread to find out why people think this way. In my eyes, I can see why someone would be in this state. I am enjoying reading people thought's on the matter though.

You are being very polite and I appreciate it personally. Let me expand by saying another thing: This series has-built into its very gameplay and dialogue system, a way for Shepard to have "get out of jail free" cards that can resolve situations to his liking. It's the Paragon/Renegade system. This isn't Dragon Age; most decisions in Mass Effect are based around building up your Par/Ren scores so you can use the dialogue wheel to resolve things successfully (Saren suicide, Tali loyalty mission, etc). Why abandon this system in the series' most important moment? As soon as I saw there was no Par/Ren choices coming, I was in a state of confusion and shock about the choices given.

Yes, I did find it quite odd that there was no way around it. I still find it not fully agreeing, however, but I do understand that it was odd of bioware to actually not give the chance to get around this strange predictament. Obviously I would of tried getting finding a better way, yes. I would of much loved this if this was the case. I still, however, in context on what I see with the device, and in shepard's condition, to actually pick the choice he thinks is right. But yes, this seems like a flaw that there is no "get out of jail free" card.

[Erield]

Zenor wrote...

Erield wrote...

Think about it this way:  A genocidal maniac comes up to  you and starts telling you why his way is saving all life.  You argue a bit at first, then realize that he's just insane and there's no point in it.  The maniac then gives you a gun and says that you have to either kill yourself, kill all of the innocents cowering behind cover around the corner, or push a button that activates a bunch of nuclear weapons and brings about the end of the world.

...and then Shepard just blithely does what he's told?  Yeah.

To me that choice scenario would be more like the situation if:

Genocidla maniac grabbed a bunch of kids and has a bomb on him.
You are able to get him away from the kids but 
A) You have to jump on him and explode with him to save the kids.
Kill the guy letting the kids explode but can walk away knowing that guy is dead...but knowing there was a heavy risk.
C) Let the guy do what he wants...Couldn't really think of something akin to synthesis.

Just my thought though.

Eh, maybe my examples weren't the exact best comparison.  But the point remains that Shepard is allowing himself to be reduced to accepting the choices presented by a self-proclaimed perpetrator of genocide on a scale that is unimaginable.  He accepts these choices without questioning them.  He questions a few of the statements, sure, but not the actual choices as presented.  If you don't question something, but just do it, then how can you say that he didn't agree?

Maybe in his head-canon, Shepard disagreed.  But he did it anyway.  And we'll never know, because he didn't say one.  Damn.  Word.  "No."

[KustomDeluxe]

Zenor wrote...

KustomDeluxe wrote...

This quote from ME2 about sums it up for me:
TIM: I made you Shephard! I brought you back from the dead!
Shephard:And I'm going to do what you brought me back to do. I'll fight and win this war without compromising the soul of our species.

Genocide (destroy), Forced "evolution" (Synthesis), and believing that the ends justify the means (control), compromise the soul of the species.

So, I'm a bit confused by this statement. The end justify the means, being control, compromises the soul of the species how? Expand on that one for me. I understand the destroy and Synthesis being a compromise, but the control I still don't.

My reasoning was that it was essentially throwing out morality to win because, in order to research the means to achieve that ending TIM had those creepy experiments on [insert-planet-I-forgot-here]. Plus it was caving into the wants of a guy who was indoctrinated, which seems...counterintuitive to say the least. We're accomplishing the GOAL of someone who was/is acknowledged to be an unwitting puppet of the bad guys!

Does that help at all?

[Reofeir]

KustomDeluxe wrote...

Zenor wrote...

KustomDeluxe wrote...

This quote from ME2 about sums it up for me:
TIM: I made you Shephard! I brought you back from the dead!
Shephard:And I'm going to do what you brought me back to do. I'll fight and win this war without compromising the soul of our species.

Genocide (destroy), Forced "evolution" (Synthesis), and believing that the ends justify the means (control), compromise the soul of the species.

So, I'm a bit confused by this statement. The end justify the means, being control, compromises the soul of the species how? Expand on that one for me. I understand the destroy and Synthesis being a compromise, but the control I still don't.

My reasoning was that it was essentially throwing out morality to win because, in order to research the means to achieve that ending TIM had those creepy experiments on [insert-planet-I-forgot-here]. Plus it was caving into the wants of a guy who was indoctrinated, which seems...counterintuitive to say the least. We're accomplishing the GOAL of someone who was/is acknowledged to be an unwitting puppet of the bad guys!

Does that help at all?

Well, to be honest, TIM only knew about how to control people and sought to do this before us, yes. However, nothing I've done was "Required" in order to do that. The best option to save the krogan, and best result actually, did need you to keep malon's(spelling?) work to save eve. However we did our best to save the krogan using the knowledge of one man's mistakes to help everyone. 
So in *my* eyes, I don't see it as still throwing out morality. 

[Vexille]

the starkid scene needs a renegade interrupt!

Starchild: I am the cata-
REEGADE INTERRUPT!
Shepard throat punch!
Shepard
: F%$K YOU, I make the calls here!

[KustomDeluxe]

Zenor wrote...

KustomDeluxe wrote...

Zenor wrote...

KustomDeluxe wrote...

This quote from ME2 about sums it up for me:
TIM: I made you Shephard! I brought you back from the dead!
Shephard:And I'm going to do what you brought me back to do. I'll fight and win this war without compromising the soul of our species.

Genocide (destroy), Forced "evolution" (Synthesis), and believing that the ends justify the means (control), compromise the soul of the species.

So, I'm a bit confused by this statement. The end justify the means, being control, compromises the soul of the species how? Expand on that one for me. I understand the destroy and Synthesis being a compromise, but the control I still don't.

My reasoning was that it was essentially throwing out morality to win because, in order to research the means to achieve that ending TIM had those creepy experiments on [insert-planet-I-forgot-here]. Plus it was caving into the wants of a guy who was indoctrinated, which seems...counterintuitive to say the least. We're accomplishing the GOAL of someone who was/is acknowledged to be an unwitting puppet of the bad guys!

Does that help at all?

Well, to be honest, TIM only knew about how to control people and sought to do this before us, yes. However, nothing I've done was "Required" in order to do that. The best option to save the krogan, and best result actually, did need you to keep malon's(spelling?) work to save eve. However we did our best to save the krogan using the knowledge of one man's mistakes to help everyone. 
So in *my* eyes, I don't see it as still throwing out morality. 

Yeah...I can understand that.

I guess my other big beef with it is the power it places in one person's hands. Obviously TIM would've used it to Destroy all humans aliens, whereas Shepherd...we dunnow, just have to assume he flew 'em out and didn't go all genocide-y on someone he didn't like. But the potential is there. Plus, alongside that we get allusions in the Illusive Man conversation that the Reapers can't be controlled (I think Shepherd even says exactly this in one of the dialog things, with variations depending on renegade/paragon) so that bugs me a bit...

I suppose Control is probably the "best" when it comes to not being monstrous directly, because good could come of it. But the logic behind that decision (I'll take all this power because good can come of it!) is disturbing and, arguably, what got TIM in such hot water. He was so busy focusing on the "good" the Reapers could do for humanity he got dragged into doing some horriffic things TO humanity.

[Lonsecia]

I see the Control ending as morally wrong due to the implications of causing mass subervience. Excluding the disparities between how the Reapers function (each is its own City, they have a hive mind, whatever), the simple truth is that they do think. Taking that away from them, no matter how seemingly acceptable feels to me like letting Shep enslave them. This in itself would probably be seen as okay by most, due to the countless deaths at their hands. However, to me, Shep controlling them all would invariably lose what makes him/her human. In turn, I can only see them further alienating themselves from other sentient lifeforms, and either becoming indoctrinated, or becoming so detached that they simply don't care about organic life.

In other words, I don't think that controlling the reapers would allow Shep to continue existing in any way remotely recognizably human.

Destroy to me just seemed... I don't know. With the repercussions involved, I can't help but feel that Legion's sacrifice was for absolutely nothing. This might be more palatable if not for the fact they went to extreme lengths to 'humanize' him in the first place.

Synthesis felt like an extreme, but one I chose simply because I had to pick one, and it seemed (at the time) the lesser evil. In truth however, it feels illogical and wrong in the same way as control. Maybe more so. The implication that Shep is consumed to cause it... I don't know. I just wonder if you could trust some random starchild doing exactly what it says it will, and not in fact using this as a way to end up controlling every living thing and shaping them to its own image.

When I was faced with the three choices, I honestly had issues with all of them, simply because I felt coerced into committing either genocide, enslavement, or something incredibly vague and dodgy.

Apologies for any lapses in logic or coherency, but I'm not at my best right now.

[Ck213]

I wouldn't mind Shep asking, "Why do you look like that kid I saw die? Do you think that's going to make me accept anything that you suggest I do?"

Or..."The created rebel against the creator and the creator fights back. How do I know you're just preventing advanced organic civilizations from evolving high enough to threaten the Reapers? Oh that's right no one ever created them. What's that all about?"

How about, "Hey, if you just came up with these new solutions, how come the Citadel is already set up for me to do them?"

Or, "But...but...I just united the Geth and the Quarians. I have an AI that just solved the issue on her own. And I united the whole galaxy to fight you. Ok, we now know about the organics vs synthetics thing. We'll take it from here."

How about..."Under Control, you say I will lose everything that I have. Does that mean my memories? My love for humanity and the Galaxy as it is? Does that mean I will just become you and continue the cycle?"

I don't care if the Starchild can argue away with any come backs, the Shep in that scene feels like a beaten Shepard and not the character I've been playing all this time. The whole ending felt too symbolic, convenient, and cheap.

The choices seem silly to me. Two of the solutions don't even solve the Catalyst's problem. The only one that does is Synthesis. Why would it even allow Shepard a choice? I'm not even sure about Synthesis. Did those Relay bursts actually cover the entire Galaxy? Aren't there still stars being born? Aren't there still planets that will eventually spawn organic life?

All I got from Shep was, "We don't want to be transformed into Reapers, we need hope, I don't know, and OK, if I do this...?" There is no questioning of this brain twisitng, genocidal AI's motives.

Screw the choices. There is only one and only the Han Solo repsonse will do. [Boom! Boom! Boom!] "Stupid conversation anyway...."

That or, "Joker, get me EDI and a buch of Geth to the Crucible so we can rewrite this little maniac and give it even better possiblilities." 

Modifié par Ck213, 28 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[dallicant]

You know, if Synthesis would prevent the cycle, why didn't the Reapers just do that from the beginning?

[Taleroth]

dallicant wrote...

You know, if Synthesis would prevent the cycle, why didn't the Reapers just do that from the beginning?

Because they couldn't build a CruciLOOK BEHIND YOU, IT'S A PRETTY EXPLOSION

[beank]

I looked at it like this:

The Crucible is the weapon to destroy the reapers.
The Kid is the instruction manual.

If the instruction manual is wrong, what hope is there of using the Crucible correctly?

It told me that Control would be preferable to destruction and I told it that it was wrong (the second time, the first time I picked Synth to fit with my Shepard's personality).

I also looked at it like this:

The Kid is giving me an explanation, and I am just waiting till he is done to give my rebuttal (selecting destroy).

But thats just what I was thinking....

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

After three games and a hundred hours of gameplay, the series ends with a villain never before even hinted at dictating the terms of Shepard's surrender, then forcing him to sacrifice himself to screw over the entire galaxy.

Whether or not it makes sense isn't the problem.

[Fdmatt]

Shepard right there and then had the option to break the cycle by refusing to go along with the Catalyst. Galactic civilization was created by the Catalyst's cycle, thus Shepard is a product of his creation. If Shep had gone all Paragon and told him that they don't need to fight, etc. (you know, one of those Paragon speeches) the little brat's point would've been moot there and then.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

beank wrote...

I looked at it like this:

The Crucible is the weapon to destroy the reapers.
The Kid is the instruction manual.

If the instruction manual is wrong, what hope is there of using the Crucible correctly?

It told me that Control would be preferable to destruction and I told it that it was wrong (the second time, the first time I picked Synth to fit with my Shepard's personality).

I also looked at it like this:

The Kid is giving me an explanation, and I am just waiting till he is done to give my rebuttal (selecting destroy).

But thats just what I was thinking....

Except you built the Crucible to kill him.  That's kind of a conflict of interest, don't you think?

It's like a burglar breaks into your house, and you ask him how to take the safety off your gun.

[Athla k4]

Vexille wrote...

the starkid scene needs a renegade interrupt!

Starchild: I am the cata-
REEGADE INTERRUPT!
Shepard throat punch!
Shepard
: F%$K YOU, I make the calls here!

That was funny, but also makes a good point.
The three options the starchild gave shepard were Not the only available options, simply the ones the starchild offered being the manipulative little brat that he is. Starchild controls the reapers, he said so himself. which means that at any time he can simply order the reapers to go away. Yet for some strange reason you never once get to argue his veiw or try to convince him to stop attacking.
Shepard can convince saren and tim to put bullets in their own heads while they were indoctinated but goes all sub when a holographic kid shows up?
I aint buying it.