171 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think "agreeing with them" is short-hand for "he accepted without question that these options were the only ones possible."

Does that sound like your Shepard?

People keep saying "your Shepard" like he's a real person with the same level of complexity.  No matter how you play him, Shepard is the sum of a finite number of limited dialogue-wheel choices.   Let's stop pretending like the ending violated people's choice to craft a character from scratch.  No matter what you do, "your" Shepard can't stray very far from Bioware's baseline.

Disregarding the fact that this is pretty disrespectful to people who actually take the time to craft a history and personality for their playthroughs (I am not one of them), the fact is that there ARE differences in a Renegade and Paragon Shepard, for example, and that for a Paragon Shepard who always picked the blue option and managed to resolve conflicts on his own terms, the ending does not work at all.

[CavScout]

Taleroth wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Why did Shep believe the AI/VI in ME1? Why did he just run off and jump into the Conduit? Why didn't he disagree and do it his own way?

Because the VI in ME1 wasn't a Reaper telling him he needed to die and destroy galactic civilization.

Shep didn't need to die.... and how was Galactic Civilization destroyed?

In any case, Shep doesn't argue with other VI/AI constructs. Just does what they say he needs to do. Being mad at one is just silly.

[Skyhawk02]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think "agreeing with them" is short-hand for "he accepted without question that these options were the only ones possible."

Does that sound like your Shepard?

Yeah actually, there have been numerous times in the game where I wanted to choose something other than the 3 dialogue choices given to me but my shepard just accepted without question that those were the only options possible.  So my shepard has always accepted that there are never more than 3 options to choose from at any given time.

[CavScout]

CronoDragoon wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think "agreeing with them" is short-hand for "he accepted without question that these options were the only ones possible."

Does that sound like your Shepard?

People keep saying "your Shepard" like he's a real person with the same level of complexity.  No matter how you play him, Shepard is the sum of a finite number of limited dialogue-wheel choices.   Let's stop pretending like the ending violated people's choice to craft a character from scratch.  No matter what you do, "your" Shepard can't stray very far from Bioware's baseline.

Disregarding the fact that this is pretty disrespectful to people who actually take the time to craft a history and personality for their playthroughs (I am not one of them), the fact is that there ARE differences in a Renegade and Paragon Shepard, for example, and that for a Paragon Shepard who always picked the blue option and managed to resolve conflicts on his own terms, the ending does not work at all.

You completely missed his point. You never played Shep the way you wanted to. You have only played Shep the way BioWare allowed you to play him.

[Taleroth]

CavScout wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Why did Shep believe the AI/VI in ME1? Why did he just run off and jump into the Conduit? Why didn't he disagree and do it his own way?

Because the VI in ME1 wasn't a Reaper telling him he needed to die and destroy galactic civilization.

Shep didn't need to die

Two choices are disintegration, one other choice is "synthetics will die, you are partially synthetic."

and how was Galactic Civilization destroyed?

Wut? I see you're new to this whole conversation.

In any case, Shep doesn't argue with other VI/AI constructs.

He does when they're the enemy. He argues with Sovereign.

[Reofeir]

FemmeShep wrote...

He does just go along with Starchild.

After Starchild gives him the three choices, he just blindly stumbles to one of the 3 choices. There is no dialogue for Shepard to question the Starchild and the choices he's been given. There is no option to get more information on why things have to be this way.

Personally, all 3 choices go against everything Shepard stood for. So I have an issue with him picking any of them. But that's for another argument all together.

Like I said: It would of been nice for more discussion with him, yes. But you don't really *agree* with him.
Note, like the last conversation, the matter could be a discussion of do you *trust* what he says, as do you think what he is telling to you is what actually happens, instead of him just lying.
However: From how it looked, if you agreed with him the best option was synthesis.
Destroy disagrees with him and destroys the reapers so that you don't need them *with a big price tag along with it.
Control makes it so you trust yourself enough to control the reapers without having to sacrifice others
and synthesis seems like the new reaper solution.

That's the point I'm trying to make and I could be wrong. It's my point of view, and I wanted to know everyone's points of views and they all have legit points on this. However it just doesn't seem like he agrees with them...depending on your choice.

[CronoDragoon]

CavScout wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Why did Shep believe the AI/VI in ME1? Why did he just run off and jump into the Conduit? Why didn't he disagree and do it his own way?

Because the VI in ME1 wasn't a Reaper telling him he needed to die and destroy galactic civilization.

Shep didn't need to die.... and how was Galactic Civilization destroyed?

In any case, Shep doesn't argue with other VI/AI constructs. Just does what they say he needs to do. Being mad at one is just silly.

The Catalyst told him that in each choice he would die, though. Galactic civilization was destroyed because it is no longer feasible to travel between galaxies. Not in a "everyone died" way but more like if countries could no longer trade with each other.

[Aurora313]

My Shepard would have questioned every factor. In the previous incarnations, he questioned everything, strung together facts before making judgement. Starchild just constantly contradicts itself.

[CaliGuy033]

CronoDragoon wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think "agreeing with them" is short-hand for "he accepted without question that these options were the only ones possible."

Does that sound like your Shepard?

People keep saying "your Shepard" like he's a real person with the same level of complexity.  No matter how you play him, Shepard is the sum of a finite number of limited dialogue-wheel choices.   Let's stop pretending like the ending violated people's choice to craft a character from scratch.  No matter what you do, "your" Shepard can't stray very far from Bioware's baseline.

Disregarding the fact that this is pretty disrespectful to people who actually take the time to craft a history and personality for their playthroughs (I am not one of them), the fact is that there ARE differences in a Renegade and Paragon Shepard, for example, and that for a Paragon Shepard who always picked the blue option and managed to resolve conflicts on his own terms, the ending does not work at all.

You can't resolve conflicts "on your own terms" when doing so involves picking a pre-written "Blue Option"  (or Red Option) that results in pre-written dialogue.  Surely you understand this.

I'm not being "disrespectful," I'm being realistic.  No matter how much a person roleplays or tries to build a consistent character with a certain personality, they are necessarily limited by the options given by the game's programming.  That is, by definition, not acting "on your own terms."  

[CaliGuy033]

CavScout wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think "agreeing with them" is short-hand for "he accepted without question that these options were the only ones possible."

Does that sound like your Shepard?

People keep saying "your Shepard" like he's a real person with the same level of complexity.  No matter how you play him, Shepard is the sum of a finite number of limited dialogue-wheel choices.   Let's stop pretending like the ending violated people's choice to craft a character from scratch.  No matter what you do, "your" Shepard can't stray very far from Bioware's baseline.

Disregarding the fact that this is pretty disrespectful to people who actually take the time to craft a history and personality for their playthroughs (I am not one of them), the fact is that there ARE differences in a Renegade and Paragon Shepard, for example, and that for a Paragon Shepard who always picked the blue option and managed to resolve conflicts on his own terms, the ending does not work at all.

You completely missed his point. You never played Shep the way you wanted to. You have only played Shep the way BioWare allowed you to play him.

Exactly. Glad to see somebody else gets it.

[Legendaryred]

My Shepard would've drop kick the kid for killing billion's of people. It's like Shepard suddenly forgot how many people this AI or VI just killed.

[CronoDragoon]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think "agreeing with them" is short-hand for "he accepted without question that these options were the only ones possible."

Does that sound like your Shepard?

People keep saying "your Shepard" like he's a real person with the same level of complexity.  No matter how you play him, Shepard is the sum of a finite number of limited dialogue-wheel choices.   Let's stop pretending like the ending violated people's choice to craft a character from scratch.  No matter what you do, "your" Shepard can't stray very far from Bioware's baseline.

Disregarding the fact that this is pretty disrespectful to people who actually take the time to craft a history and personality for their playthroughs (I am not one of them), the fact is that there ARE differences in a Renegade and Paragon Shepard, for example, and that for a Paragon Shepard who always picked the blue option and managed to resolve conflicts on his own terms, the ending does not work at all.

You can't resolve conflicts "on your own terms" when doing so involves picking a pre-written "Blue Option"  (or Red Option) that results in pre-written dialogue.  Surely you understand this.

I'm not being "disrespectful," I'm being realistic.  No matter how much a person roleplays or tries to build a consistent character with a certain personality, they are necessarily limited by the options given by the game's programming.  That is, by definition, not acting "on your own terms."  

You are right, the choices are not infinite. 

[CavScout]

Taleroth wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Why did Shep believe the AI/VI in ME1? Why did he just run off and jump into the Conduit? Why didn't he disagree and do it his own way?

Because the VI in ME1 wasn't a Reaper telling him he needed to die and destroy galactic civilization.

Shep didn't need to die

Two choices are disintegration, one other choice is "synthetics will die, you are partially synthetic."

and how was Galactic Civilization destroyed?

Wut? I see you're new to this whole conversation.

In any case, Shep doesn't argue with other VI/AI constructs.

He does when they're the enemy. He argues with Sovereign.

You don't die in all destroy and the Catalsyt never says "you will die". He argues with Soverign just about as much as the Catalyst and I missed the part where Soverign was telling Shep how to kill the Reapers.

[Reofeir]

Aurora313 wrote...

My Shepard would have questioned every factor. In the previous incarnations, he questioned everything, strung together facts before making judgement. Starchild just constantly contradicts itself.

And I agree, he does contradict himself. Thus his synthesis option is a no-go for me because it is purely siding with him. 
Destroy is the pure one of disagreement. Of course there is the downside, however new synthetics can be made, and life can go on without reaper intervention.
Control is taking it upon yourself, beleving that you can control them without failing so that no one else but you has to die for the reapers to stop their cycle.

In which I still say: You can still disagree with your choice. It would be GREAT if we could argue with him, but however you can still not agree with him. Trusting him, however, is another topic.

[CavScout]

CronoDragoon wrote...
The Catalyst told him that in each choice he would die, though. Galactic civilization was destroyed because it is no longer feasible to travel between galaxies. Not in a "everyone died" way but more like if countries could no longer trade with each other.

Except he doesn't tell him that he will die in all of them...

We never traveled between Galaxies in the ME universe....

[CavScout]

Aurora313 wrote...

My Shepard would have questioned every factor. In the previous incarnations, he questioned everything, strung together facts before making judgement. Starchild just constantly contradicts itself.

No he didn't. Occasionaly you'd get an "Investigate" option on the left but in the end, the two or three choices on the right were usually same.

[CavScout]

Legendaryred wrote...

My Shepard would've drop kick the kid for killing billion's of people. It's like Shepard suddenly forgot how many people this AI or VI just killed.

He's trying to save the people who are alive.

[CronoDragoon]

CavScout wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think "agreeing with them" is short-hand for "he accepted without question that these options were the only ones possible."

Does that sound like your Shepard?

People keep saying "your Shepard" like he's a real person with the same level of complexity.  No matter how you play him, Shepard is the sum of a finite number of limited dialogue-wheel choices.   Let's stop pretending like the ending violated people's choice to craft a character from scratch.  No matter what you do, "your" Shepard can't stray very far from Bioware's baseline.

Disregarding the fact that this is pretty disrespectful to people who actually take the time to craft a history and personality for their playthroughs (I am not one of them), the fact is that there ARE differences in a Renegade and Paragon Shepard, for example, and that for a Paragon Shepard who always picked the blue option and managed to resolve conflicts on his own terms, the ending does not work at all.

You completely missed his point. You never played Shep the way you wanted to. You have only played Shep the way BioWare allowed you to play him.

I didn't miss his point. In most dialogue wheels, there was an option that represented a basic personality. Hero, anti-hero, and a couple shades in between. It's what the Paragon/Renegade system is based on. Bioware does indeed shape how that basic character progresses in the game, but the ending does not fit this narrative of how the dialogue choices have shaped the general "idea" of your Shepard's personality in the past.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Okay, wait a minute. How can Shepard control anything if (s)he's dead? Unless we're assuming "Space Magic." The only thing I can think of is that they've got enough human goop collected to make a capital ship human reaper and want Shepard as the "consciousness" like they had Nazara, and have Harbinger. They got what they wanted, and they're leaving to build this thing. They'll be back. This is not a good thing. You are doing the enemy's bidding. The ending music for this one should be "Don't Fear The Reaper".

Green - synthesis - fill in saren.

These are enemy propaganda.

[CavScout]

CronoDragoon wrote..

CavScout wrote...
You completely missed his point. You never played Shep the way you wanted to. You have only played Shep the way BioWare allowed you to play him.

I didn't miss his point. In most dialogue wheels, there was an option that represented a basic personality. Hero, anti-hero, and a couple shades in between. It's what the Paragon/Renegade system is based on. Bioware does indeed shape how that basic character progresses in the game, but the ending does not fit this narrative of how the dialogue choices have shaped the general "idea" of your Shepard's personality in the past.

You are misremembering how much control you ever had in the ME saga.

[Saint Op]

I hated how I could never say that the reapers are all here to save us rejoice and go eat a banana...
I always wondered what could shep really do hurl himself off the giant platform(which I guess you could) or randomly shoot at things...headbutt a hologram...Kid could always say whatever and dissapear...then you can wait and in 20 mins or so..game over crucible destroyed....

[Aurora313]

Zenor wrote...

Aurora313 wrote...

My Shepard would have questioned every factor. In the previous incarnations, he questioned everything, strung together facts before making judgement. Starchild just constantly contradicts itself.

And I agree, he does contradict himself. Thus his synthesis option is a no-go for me because it is purely siding with him. 
Destroy is the pure one of disagreement. Of course there is the downside, however new synthetics can be made, and life can go on without reaper intervention.
Control is taking it upon yourself, beleving that you can control them without failing so that no one else but you has to die for the reapers to stop their cycle.

In which I still say: You can still disagree with your choice. It would be GREAT if we could argue with him, but however you can still not agree with him. Trusting him, however, is another topic.

Yes, at this point Shepard is dying, and he's dropped hints throughout the game that he's not afraid of it - in fact in some ways he would welcome it - and there's bloodloss, but he'd have to have lost most of his braincells to make the Control and Synthesis options seem like a good idea.

IMHO, destroy is the way to go. And I follow the indoctrination theory. Just take a look at the stances Shepard takes.
Control - he can barely hold on and is in excruciating pain.
Synthesis - he's running fairly fast, but he stumbles.
Destroy - he's hobbling, but when he starts shooting the power supply, his stance immediately straightens and paces forward confidently as if to say 'I've shaken off your shackles. I will finish you once and for all." 

[CronoDragoon]

CavScout wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
The Catalyst told him that in each choice he would die, though. Galactic civilization was destroyed because it is no longer feasible to travel between galaxies. Not in a "everyone died" way but more like if countries could no longer trade with each other.

Except he doesn't tell him that he will die in all of them...

We never traveled between Galaxies in the ME universe....

Okay, so the starchild says for destroy: You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want. Even you are partly synthetic.

So no, he doesn't explicitly say it, but I believe that sentence heavily implies it.

I goofed on the galaxy thing, we can't travel between systems without the Mass Relays with any sort of normalcy. Trade between Tuchanka and Palaven, for example, is more or less impossible now.

[CronoDragoon]

CavScout wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote..

CavScout wrote...
You completely missed his point. You never played Shep the way you wanted to. You have only played Shep the way BioWare allowed you to play him.

I didn't miss his point. In most dialogue wheels, there was an option that represented a basic personality. Hero, anti-hero, and a couple shades in between. It's what the Paragon/Renegade system is based on. Bioware does indeed shape how that basic character progresses in the game, but the ending does not fit this narrative of how the dialogue choices have shaped the general "idea" of your Shepard's personality in the past.

You are misremembering how much control you ever had in the ME saga.

Without you providing examples, I can only say you are wrong.

[Aurora313]

CavScout wrote...

Aurora313 wrote...

My Shepard would have questioned every factor. In the previous incarnations, he questioned everything, strung together facts before making judgement. Starchild just constantly contradicts itself.

No he didn't. Occasionaly you'd get an "Investigate" option on the left but in the end, the two or three choices on the right were usually same.

Spinning on headcanon, but that's my point. He can't question the 'Starchilds' Logic. He just blatently accepts it. He can't ask 'why did you come to this conclusion when I've spent the entire game proving just how wrong you are'.