171 réponses à ce sujet

[Reofeir]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Zenor wrote...

 At the first part, anything the kid says is "The reapers are his" and blah blah blah. He tells Shepard his cruel and stupid logic, and then shepard says something about keeping their own form, and then later on says "maybe" and something about that the charateristic of organic life is thinking for themselves. So far, in my opinion, I do not see this as "Agreeing with the starkid" yet.
Then we are given 3 choices.
Destroy-Destroy the reapers and synthetics "Can wipe out reapers, including the geth"...he says "maybe" here. Not agreeing or disagreeing but just maybe, but to continue.
Control the reapers
Or Synthesis. 

Now to me destroy is disagreeing with them. It pretty much says "We don't need you." Right? Sure there's a heavy price tag, the geth dying with them, but it allows us to start anew without the reapers doing their thing with their logic.

Control is doing what the illusive man wanted to do, but in terms of thinking he can do it and not fail as well as not letting the geth die due to it. Heavy risk, but..well not very good prize but meh.

Now synthesis is pretty much agreeing with them, right? I mean you're doing what the reapers or at least starkid, thinks is the best solution. That would be shepard agreeing with starkid.

Sure it would be better if we were given a choice to say "You're wrong, look at the geth!" but would it listen? It would most likely say "You're wrong blah blah blah" anyways. So...Can someone help me see how shepard is just agreeing with the starchild? I'm confused on this still and I'm trying to see it.

Nevermind about the Geth, you lose EDI. That hurts -- and I felt that way before she got the fembot.

Sometimes you got to make the tough choices. It is a very very hard choice to make. One I wish I'd never make in real life (in terms of having to choose between helping many or save a friend kinda thing...even though that'll never happen)

[admcmei]

CavScout wrote...

Silveralen wrote...

CavScout wrote...
If you even acknowledge there will be wars, why is it so hard to fathom that after enough of these wars the Synthetics will say "F this noise, let's just erase these darn organics off the map!"?

We are given plenty of background on several organic and synthetic conflicts. If you have the DLC you can hear about another one and even the Prothean backs up the idea that sythetics are not to be trusted and will turn on their creators.

Yes, and then we see the geth memory core. Remember that? They turned on their creators because their creators feared them. All this "terrified of synthetics, so we must destroy" actualy causes the very situation the organic life feared. Thus, we see throug example that the fears cause the synthetics to turn, rather than the fears being caused by dangerous synthetics. Chicken and egg argument, except we got to watch the orginal event.

So why can't Shepard at least say this to the starchld? Even if he just dismisses it, it needs to be said!

The eventuality doesn't depend on who starts the conflict...

PS: Why doesn't Shep argue against the Geth "memory" and justs accept it? It's no more self-serving than the Catalyst's.

In Italy we use the expression "to climb on glass" when someone argues a clearly losing point in a more and more desperate manner. You, sir, are right now climbing on glass. Hope you broght some suction cups with you. 

[Reofeir]

Tazzmission wrote...

what if star child controlled shepard into agreeing?


isnt shepard part synthetic anyways?

and what are the chances of that being reaper technology?

I'm going off what we know, not going into theories. If we do, we can dismiss this and say "INDOCTRINATION AWAZAH :wizard::wizard:". So I'd rather we stay on what we know from the game.

[CronoDragoon]

Zenor wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Zenor wrote...

 At the first part, anything the kid says is "The reapers are his" and blah blah blah. He tells Shepard his cruel and stupid logic, and then shepard says something about keeping their own form, and then later on says "maybe" and something about that the charateristic of organic life is thinking for themselves. So far, in my opinion, I do not see this as "Agreeing with the starkid" yet.
Then we are given 3 choices.
Destroy-Destroy the reapers and synthetics "Can wipe out reapers, including the geth"...he says "maybe" here. Not agreeing or disagreeing but just maybe, but to continue.
Control the reapers
Or Synthesis. 

Now to me destroy is disagreeing with them. It pretty much says "We don't need you." Right? Sure there's a heavy price tag, the geth dying with them, but it allows us to start anew without the reapers doing their thing with their logic.

Control is doing what the illusive man wanted to do, but in terms of thinking he can do it and not fail as well as not letting the geth die due to it. Heavy risk, but..well not very good prize but meh.

Now synthesis is pretty much agreeing with them, right? I mean you're doing what the reapers or at least starkid, thinks is the best solution. That would be shepard agreeing with starkid.

Sure it would be better if we were given a choice to say "You're wrong, look at the geth!" but would it listen? It would most likely say "You're wrong blah blah blah" anyways. So...Can someone help me see how shepard is just agreeing with the starchild? I'm confused on this still and I'm trying to see it.

Nevermind about the Geth, you lose EDI. That hurts -- and I felt that way before she got the fembot.

Sometimes you got to make the tough choices. It is a very very hard choice to make. One I wish I'd never make in real life (in terms of having to choose between helping many or save a friend kinda thing...even though that'll never happen)

Virmire was a tough choice. In my opinion this choice wasn't tough at all because no matter what you do you lose almost everything in the galaxy that was worth fighting for. 

[sedrikhcain]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Virmire was a tough choice. In my opinion this choice wasn't tough at all because no matter what you do you lose almost everything in the galaxy that was worth fighting for. 

True but the first time you go through, unless you watched the ending beforehand, you don't know this.


*sigh* that ending.

[sedrikhcain]

admcmei wrote...

In Italy we use the expression "to climb on glass" when someone argues a clearly losing point in a more and more desperate manner. You, sir, are right now climbing on glass. Hope you broght some suction cups with you. 

Or, as Blade put it, Some M**** f***ers are always trying to ice skate uphill!

[CronoDragoon]

sedrikhcain wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Virmire was a tough choice. In my opinion this choice wasn't tough at all because no matter what you do you lose almost everything in the galaxy that was worth fighting for. 

True but the first time you go through, unless you watched the ending beforehand, you don't know this.


*sigh* that ending.

Well, he tells you the Mass Relays will be destroyed. That is pretty damn crushing.

[Silveralen]

Zenor wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

what if star child controlled shepard into agreeing?


isnt shepard part synthetic anyways?

and what are the chances of that being reaper technology?

I'm going off what we know, not going into theories. If we do, we can dismiss this and say "INDOCTRINATION AWAZAH :wizard::wizard:". So I'd rather we stay on what we know from the game.

Then don't we know that the Mass Effect relays destroy 90% of the galaxy as they explode? Unless we assume space magic from the beam somehow keeps the elemnt zero from exploding like the only other example we have did.

Zenor wrote...

Sometimes you got to make the tough
choices. It is a very very hard choice to make. One I wish I'd never
make in real life (in terms of having to choose between helping many or
save a friend kinda thing...even though that'll never happen)

Tough choice? I saw kill all robots, hope to hell TIM was right, and trust magic floating spacechild, who just admitted he is the person trying to destoy all organics including me, wih my life by jumping into the vat of swirling energy and hoping that this somehow does combine synthetic DNA (still doesn't exist) with human DNA.

These aren't tough choices. We have slightly unfourtunate but pragmatic choice, the complete 180 degree spin in beleifs choice, and the increadibly naive/killing yourself because your arch rival who just tried to kill you 20 min ago told you it would fix everything choice. Also, galactic civilization etc gone no matter what you pick, which wil cause an increadible death toll itself, even assuming the relays themselves don't explode the loss of transport and trade coud leave many worlds cut off from food, technology, etc. The bad part is built into all three, klling robots as well is just the icing on the cake. At the end of the dya, it barely matters which ending you chose.

[sedrikhcain]

CronoDragoon wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Virmire was a tough choice. In my opinion this choice wasn't tough at all because no matter what you do you lose almost everything in the galaxy that was worth fighting for. 

True but the first time you go through, unless you watched the ending beforehand, you don't know this.


*sigh* that ending.

Well, he tells you the Mass Relays will be destroyed. That is pretty damn crushing.

Yeah, that is the biggest problem with the ending. It renders everything pointless. I still pondered what to do but it didn't really matter.

[CavScout]

admcmei wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Silveralen wrote...

CavScout wrote...
If you even acknowledge there will be wars, why is it so hard to fathom that after enough of these wars the Synthetics will say "F this noise, let's just erase these darn organics off the map!"?

We are given plenty of background on several organic and synthetic conflicts. If you have the DLC you can hear about another one and even the Prothean backs up the idea that sythetics are not to be trusted and will turn on their creators.

Yes, and then we see the geth memory core. Remember that? They turned on their creators because their creators feared them. All this "terrified of synthetics, so we must destroy" actualy causes the very situation the organic life feared. Thus, we see throug example that the fears cause the synthetics to turn, rather than the fears being caused by dangerous synthetics. Chicken and egg argument, except we got to watch the orginal event.

So why can't Shepard at least say this to the starchld? Even if he just dismisses it, it needs to be said!

The eventuality doesn't depend on who starts the conflict...

PS: Why doesn't Shep argue against the Geth "memory" and justs accept it? It's no more self-serving than the Catalyst's.

In Italy we use the expression "to climb on glass" when someone argues a clearly losing point in a more and more desperate manner. You, sir, are right now climbing on glass. Hope you broght some suction cups with you. 

Where I am from, they have a saying, "when they attack the speaker, they can no longer attack the argument".

Modifié par CavScout, 28 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[CavScout]

sedrikhcain wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Virmire was a tough choice. In my opinion this choice wasn't tough at all because no matter what you do you lose almost everything in the galaxy that was worth fighting for. 

True but the first time you go through, unless you watched the ending beforehand, you don't know this.


*sigh* that ending.

Well, he tells you the Mass Relays will be destroyed. That is pretty damn crushing.

Yeah, that is the biggest problem with the ending. It renders everything pointless. I still pondered what to do but it didn't really matter.

I am not sure what game you were playing, but I was never in the fight to save the Mass Relays...

[Cgrissom]

My Shepard would have simply blown his virtual ass into actual dust.

[CronoDragoon]

CavScout wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Virmire was a tough choice. In my opinion this choice wasn't tough at all because no matter what you do you lose almost everything in the galaxy that was worth fighting for. 

True but the first time you go through, unless you watched the ending beforehand, you don't know this.


*sigh* that ending.

Well, he tells you the Mass Relays will be destroyed. That is pretty damn crushing.

Yeah, that is the biggest problem with the ending. It renders everything pointless. I still pondered what to do but it didn't really matter.

I am not sure what game you were playing, but I was never in the fight to save the Mass Relays...

If the Mass Relays had instead fizzled out, letting everyone at least warp back home first, it would be much much less of a problem. The relays themselves aren't the thing we want to save, but their absence has dire consequences for the vast majority of planets, not to mention your allied forces.

[admcmei]

CavScout wrote...

admcmei wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Silveralen wrote...

CavScout wrote...
If you even acknowledge there will be wars, why is it so hard to fathom that after enough of these wars the Synthetics will say "F this noise, let's just erase these darn organics off the map!"?

We are given plenty of background on several organic and synthetic conflicts. If you have the DLC you can hear about another one and even the Prothean backs up the idea that sythetics are not to be trusted and will turn on their creators.

Yes, and then we see the geth memory core. Remember that? They turned on their creators because their creators feared them. All this "terrified of synthetics, so we must destroy" actualy causes the very situation the organic life feared. Thus, we see throug example that the fears cause the synthetics to turn, rather than the fears being caused by dangerous synthetics. Chicken and egg argument, except we got to watch the orginal event.

So why can't Shepard at least say this to the starchld? Even if he just dismisses it, it needs to be said!

The eventuality doesn't depend on who starts the conflict...

PS: Why doesn't Shep argue against the Geth "memory" and justs accept it? It's no more self-serving than the Catalyst's.

In Italy we use the expression "to climb on glass" when someone argues a clearly losing point in a more and more desperate manner. You, sir, are right now climbing on glass. Hope you broght some suction cups with you. 

Where I am from, they have a saying, "when they attack the speaker, they can no longer attack the argument".

there's few things I hate more than politically correct bs like that.

[The Angry One]

CavScout wrote...

I am not sure what game you were playing, but I was never in the fight to save the Mass Relays...

Being purposefully obtuse is unbecoming.
The mass relays maintain the galaxy, without them the galactic community dies.

[Aduro]

Zenor wrote...

Hm, it could be a possibility shepard is weakened by everything

But...he was just arguing, quite strongly and willfully, against the Illusive Man and his control - not even 20 seconds before starchild comes out O_o. If being hit by a lazer, swarmed by untold numbers of reaper forces, getting controlled, shooting Anderson, getting his armor blasted clear off and having Marauder Shields shooting him (injured enough to slow mow limp XD). If none of this can stop Shepard from still talking and debating against TIM (enough to overcome the Indoctrination of such a strong willed foe) then why does that all suddenly evaporate 25 seconds later?

Not much happened in that half minute O_o, if anything he got a few seconds worth of a breather in between.

You might argue that Anderson's death was the lat straw, but I still don't buy that - Anderson died as he was and died a godamn hero! *Salute*

Modifié par Aduro, 28 mars 2012 - 06:39 .

[CavScout]

admcmei wrote...

CavScout wrote...

admcmei wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Silveralen wrote...

CavScout wrote...
If you even acknowledge there will be wars, why is it so hard to fathom that after enough of these wars the Synthetics will say "F this noise, let's just erase these darn organics off the map!"?

We are given plenty of background on several organic and synthetic conflicts. If you have the DLC you can hear about another one and even the Prothean backs up the idea that sythetics are not to be trusted and will turn on their creators.

Yes, and then we see the geth memory core. Remember that? They turned on their creators because their creators feared them. All this "terrified of synthetics, so we must destroy" actualy causes the very situation the organic life feared. Thus, we see throug example that the fears cause the synthetics to turn, rather than the fears being caused by dangerous synthetics. Chicken and egg argument, except we got to watch the orginal event.

So why can't Shepard at least say this to the starchld? Even if he just dismisses it, it needs to be said!

The eventuality doesn't depend on who starts the conflict...

PS: Why doesn't Shep argue against the Geth "memory" and justs accept it? It's no more self-serving than the Catalyst's.

In Italy we use the expression "to climb on glass" when someone argues a clearly losing point in a more and more desperate manner. You, sir, are right now climbing on glass. Hope you broght some suction cups with you. 

Where I am from, they have a saying, "when they attack the speaker, they can no longer attack the argument".

there's few things I hate more than politically correct bs like that.

I believe you're climbing on glass now.

[CavScout]

The Angry One wrote...

CavScout wrote...

I am not sure what game you were playing, but I was never in the fight to save the Mass Relays...

Being purposefully obtuse is unbecoming.
The mass relays maintain the galaxy, without them the galactic community dies.

There is nobody to inhabit the community if the relays stay intact.

[sedrikhcain]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I am not sure what game you were playing, but I was never in the fight to save the Mass Relays...

Well, you should've been. The galactic community cannot exist without them and every species is thrown back into a relative stone age.

Modifié par sedrikhcain, 28 mars 2012 - 09:21 .

[Saremei]

sedrikhcain wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I am not sure what game you were playing, but I was never in the fight to save the Mass Relays...

Well, you should've been. The galactic community cannot exist without them and every species is thrown back into a relative stone age.

Necessity is the mother of invention.  There was no need to advance travel tech all that much with the Mass Relays, thus why no one seemed to know how they work or how to build new ones many thousands of years after their discovery.  With the Mass Relays destroyed, real work can begin on progressing past the Reaper enforced cap on galactic technology.  It would probably just be a few decades at the worst before it would be figured out.
Sure it will suck for the people currently inhabiting the galaxy, but it wouldn't suck that much more for galactic society than it already has with untold billions of people and entire planets lost to the reapers.  All of civilization is pretty much done for this generation as is.

[Necrotron]

Shepard would never outright kill all Geth in the galaxy, that would be genocide, and unethical even if it meant killing the Reapers.

Shepard wouldn't synthethize all organic and synthetic life, that's...kinda weird and against the theme of diversity working together of the series, and a bit too much of an infringement on the free will of all species in the galaxy.

Shepard wouldn't follow through with the Illusive Man's plan to try and control the Reapers, especially when the only arguement given for why it would work for him (and not the Illusive Man) is because 'well, the Illusive Man was indoctrinated, but it will work for you!', ESPECIALLLY when the person giving the advice IS the creator of the Reapers.

So, where does that leave us? My Shepard is still standing at the catalyst having chosen no options, because all of them are terrible and against his character. He is waiting for an option to disagree with the starchild's logic, and outright destroy the Reapers.

Modifié par Bathaius, 28 mars 2012 - 07:28 .

[TudorWolf]

Don't agree with the choices? Then just stand around and wait for the crucible to be destroyed followed by your game over.

Shepard doesn't exactly have much options in the matter. The reapers are winning the battle right outside the window. There's too many of them to take down conventionally before they kill everything else. It sucks that Shepard can't argue the details, but there's nothing saying the Catalyst has to agree even if you could, so you'd gain nothing but personal satisfaction.

It's all fine and dandy for Shep to say "screw this I'm going home" but that also means the battle is lost anyway (due to the crucible being destroyed). The Catalyst is an essential factor for using the crucible, or so we're led to believe, so you have to go along with it.

Not saying I like it, but that's how Bioware presented it