215 réponses à ce sujet

[Bahlgan]

d3c0yBoY wrote...

"This song is not about you". While I appreciate you standing up for him (tugs at my hearts strings), be careful on how you accuse me. With that said, I'm not going to compare accomplishments and contributions with the likes of you. I've been around a long time with different names. You are inconsequential. You, kind sir, are forgotten. So excuse me as I try not to step on you.

Edit: Summary to what I said to Madax:" Listen to Bean, he knows 2handers."

Right, I am forgotten, no one knows I am here. I am almost as invisible as the man with a million faces.

Anyway to be more serious, I stand up for him because he is being attacked relentlessly by someone such as you, and another nameless speck, who I have yet to understand your "fool notion".  I am not buying into your joke about having been on here for a long time, no need to . Whether not you were on here as a different alias is irrelevant to the fact that you have done nothing worth a spit on this thread. Unless you got something wise to offer, please lose your identity once more and for good, because we do not need more vultures on the forums, we need people who can be civil about expressing their opinions.

And no, I wouldn't want you to compare your mad skills with someone like me either, it wouldn't look pretty for you. 

[d3c0yBoY]

Let us not derail this thread. Refer back to my previous statement. Back on topic.

[Bahlgan]

Just got done watching the movie "Paulie". You should see it some time.

[Yrkoon]

Madax132 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Not to mention the fact that   as annoying as Misdirection hex  is,  it's about as situational as they come.  Which is interesting to note, since the guy who decided to bring it up here opened the debate by claiming he's not interested in  "cans".

Way to take what I said out of context, I was talking about what the ability will do and I already stated that it was situational if you actually took the time to read my posts and aside from the fact that you actually looked something up from the wikia page I provided I'm convinced you largely don't.

You harped on the most minor point I made in my arguement for the situational advantages of critical strike and mighy blow and after that you still had to admit you were wrong.

But then again I do have bad grammar. . . well that must mean I can't be correct, you sir have won.

Out of context nothing.    There are 3 things that make the sunders awesome:  1) they're  *fast*, inexpensive  double hits; 2) they're major combat debuffs; and 3) you can score criticals with them, making them second only to 2-h sweep in total damage dealing potential.

I pointed this out to you more than a page ago,  and it should have ended  any  damage comparison  right there.  But your response was to completely  dismiss that last one,  basically saying: "hehehe, I don't care about what    talents  can potentially   do, I only care about  what they will do!  Next!"

And then, against all logic, you immediately contradict yourself  by  arguing  in favor of Mighty blow based on 2  of its potentials!  1) it can stun and 2) in  very specific circumstances  against very specific opponents, it can do damage when the sunders can't.

So no, my comment was  not out of context at all, and neither was it a minor point.    And you know it.  You're either being very dishonest in your debating here, or you're just really *really* dense.  I'm going to assume its the former.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 août 2010 - 10:22 .

[swk3000]

Re: Final Blow - I really don't like this ability. Sure, it can do a lot of damage in one go (I actually used it to get my Heavy Hitter achievement), but that's all it has going for it. You literally cripple your damage output for the rest of the fight because you don't have the Stamina do use any other abilities. As has been mentioned, the Sunders are amazing because they do two hits much more quickly than you could get with two auto-attacks; the debuffs are just an added bonus. Without them, though, the damage output of a Two-Hander drops considerably. To me, crippling my damage output for the rest of the fight just for a single huge damage number is not an acceptable trade-off. In fact, when I take Berserker, I never take Final Blow.

[Yrkoon]

And it turns off indomitable and precise striking after it lands, making you feel naked.

[soteria]

I completely disagree. The average mage can easily be finished off by the combination of the two. If you ever get the stun proc off your attacks, then your first one, let's say mighty blow, can stun the mage, therefore eliminating the mage's chance to dodge or be ready to prepare to defend the second attack, in this case critical strike. Only Gaxkang and the hermit have ridiculous amounts of hp as mages, but then again they are bosses.

Err... I'm talking about using MB with misdirection hex on, which turns crits into normal hits.  How are you going to get a stun proc off that, much less kill something?  Without misdirection hex, you're better off using pommel strike, a normal swing, and sunder.  Knockdown >>> stun.

Would be cool if holy smite was a skill that temporarily prevented mages (perhaps a second or two) from casting again. It might already do that, but I interpreted that holy smite merely interrupted the immediate spell original casted by the mage. I still don't trust sunder arms/armor though when shot by MD Hex, I would like to execute mighty blow and critical strike instead, for they shall slay the mage and prevent retaliation.

Well, as a stun/knockdown, it *does* prevent casting.

Modifié par soteria, 08 août 2010 - 02:43 .

[Madax132]

Yrkoon wrote...

Madax132 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Not to mention the fact that   as annoying as Misdirection hex  is,  it's about as situational as they come.  Which is interesting to note, since the guy who decided to bring it up here opened the debate by claiming he's not interested in  "cans".

Way to take what I said out of context, I was talking about what the ability will do and I already stated that it was situational if you actually took the time to read my posts and aside from the fact that you actually looked something up from the wikia page I provided I'm convinced you largely don't.

You harped on the most minor point I made in my arguement for the situational advantages of critical strike and mighy blow and after that you still had to admit you were wrong.

But then again I do have bad grammar. . . well that must mean I can't be correct, you sir have won.

Out of context nothing.    There are 3 things that make the sunders awesome:  1) they're  *fast*, inexpensive  double hits; 2) they're major combat debuffs; and 3) you can score criticals with them, making them second only to 2-h sweep in total damage dealing potential.

I pointed this out to you more than a page ago,  and it should have ended  any  damage comparison  right there.  But your response was to completely  dismiss that last one,  basically saying: "hehehe, I don't care about what    talents  can potentially   do, I only care about  what they will do!  Next!"

And then, against all logic, you immediately contradict yourself  by  arguing  in favor of Mighty blow based on 2  of its potentials!  1) it can stun and 2) in  very specific circumstances  against very specific opponents, it can do damage when the sunders can't.

So no, my comment was  not out of context at all, and neither was it a minor point.    And you know it.  You're either being very dishonest in your debating here, or you're just really *really* dense.  I'm going to assume its the former.

I agree it does have high damage potentinal but comparison one sunder has a 10% chance to crit a and a 5% chance to stun with one of the attacks, this is very rare that both do crits though as they aren't likely to be back to back, I don't deny that it doesn't happen. However you get two 1 hit auto criticals each with a 50 percent chance to stun so it's guarenteed to stun if you use both. That was the comparison I was making, let me correct myself before we go any further then, I like the extremely likely damage potential.

Now you continue to harp on about 1 comment I made in the large statement about a situational purpose which I have explained I have explained as such twice now mind you.

Sunders arms debuff isn't anything to get excited about but it's alright for early levels if your 1v1 against a vangaurd or something I guess.

Sunder armor though has a great debuff for armor.


Both of them have situational purposes for different things though like I said. To give another example mighty blow and if not that critical strike almost always stun ogres and the sylvans and other giant creatures and I've often had the sunder abilities get interrupted before the slight time more it takes for the second swing in which case you get no debuffs.

[Madax132]

swk3000 wrote...

Re: Final Blow - I really don't like this ability. Sure, it can do a lot of damage in one go (I actually used it to get my Heavy Hitter achievement), but that's all it has going for it. You literally cripple your damage output for the rest of the fight because you don't have the Stamina do use any other abilities. As has been mentioned, the Sunders are amazing because they do two hits much more quickly than you could get with two auto-attacks; the debuffs are just an added bonus. Without them, though, the damage output of a Two-Hander drops considerably. To me, crippling my damage output for the rest of the fight just for a single huge damage number is not an acceptable trade-off. In fact, when I take Berserker, I never take Final Blow.

While it is called FINAL blow lol, not much use in early battle.

in any case the templar abilities really didn't do much for me since I had nothing in willpower except for the mana draining which was nice although I was more interesting in using rock fist from wynne then getting close enough to stun lock rather than chipping away at there mana bar. Mental fortress is nice though.

Modifié par Madax132, 08 août 2010 - 02:59 .

[swk3000]

Madax132 wrote...
However you get two 1 hit auto criticals each with a 50 percent chance to stun so it's guarenteed to stun if you use both.

You know, it's hard to take you seriously when you can't even figure out the basic rules of probability. If you want people to take you seriously, I'd suggest knowing how the numbers you're throwing around work, as all you've succeeded in doing is proving to me that your math is suspect. And if your math is suspect, then what else is?

[Yrkoon]

Madax132 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...


Out of context nothing.    There are 3 things that make the sunders awesome:  1) they're  *fast*, inexpensive  double hits; 2) they're major combat debuffs; and 3) you can score criticals with them, making them second only to 2-h sweep in total damage dealing potential.

I pointed this out to you more than a page ago,  and it should have ended  any  damage comparison  right there.  But your response was to completely  dismiss that last one,  basically saying: "hehehe, I don't care about what    talents  can potentially   do, I only care about  what they will do!  Next!"

And then, against all logic, you immediately contradict yourself  by  arguing  in favor of Mighty blow based on 2  of its potentials!  1) it can stun and 2) in  very specific circumstances  against very specific opponents, it can do damage when the sunders can't.

So no, my comment was  not out of context at all, and neither was it a minor point.    And you know it.  You're either being very dishonest in your debating here, or you're just really *really* dense.  I'm going to assume its the former.

I agree it does have high damage potentinal but comparison one sunder has a 10% chance to crit a and a 5% chance to stun with one of the attacks, this is very rare that both do crits though as they aren't likely to be back to back, I don't deny that it doesn't happen. However you get two 1 hit auto criticals each with a 50 percent chance to stun so it's guarenteed to stun if you use both. That was the comparison I was making, let me correct myself before we go any further then, I like the extremely likely damage potential.

Now you continue to harp on about 1 comment I made in the large statement about a situational purpose which I have explained I have explained as such twice now mind you.

Sunders arms debuff isn't anything to get excited about but it's alright for early levels if your 1v1 against a vangaurd or something I guess.

Sunder armor though has a great debuff for armor.


Both of them have situational purposes for different things though like I said. To give another example mighty blow and if not that critical strike almost always stun ogres and the sylvans and other giant creatures and I've often had the sunder abilities get interrupted before the slight time more it takes for the second swing in which case you get no debuffs.

What's the point in discussing critical percentages when one talent does more damage than the other regardless?    Is it about the stun?   Does the 50% chance to stun that Ogre for about 2 seconds   *really* make a difference here?   Really?

  Oh,  and by the way,  A Sylvan's Roots attack  can   interrupt your Mighty Blow, too, mid-swing...  And when it does, it's even worse, since Mighty Blow is more expensive to activate than Sunder Arms, and you just lost the stamina for attempting it.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 août 2010 - 03:37 .

[Madax132]

Yrkoon wrote...

Madax132 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...


Out of context nothing.    There are 3 things that make the sunders awesome:  1) they're  *fast*, inexpensive  double hits; 2) they're major combat debuffs; and 3) you can score criticals with them, making them second only to 2-h sweep in total damage dealing potential.

I pointed this out to you more than a page ago,  and it should have ended  any  damage comparison  right there.  But your response was to completely  dismiss that last one,  basically saying: "hehehe, I don't care about what    talents  can potentially   do, I only care about  what they will do!  Next!"

And then, against all logic, you immediately contradict yourself  by  arguing  in favor of Mighty blow based on 2  of its potentials!  1) it can stun and 2) in  very specific circumstances  against very specific opponents, it can do damage when the sunders can't.

So no, my comment was  not out of context at all, and neither was it a minor point.    And you know it.  You're either being very dishonest in your debating here, or you're just really *really* dense.  I'm going to assume its the former.

I agree it does have high damage potentinal but comparison one sunder has a 10% chance to crit a and a 5% chance to stun with one of the attacks, this is very rare that both do crits though as they aren't likely to be back to back, I don't deny that it doesn't happen. However you get two 1 hit auto criticals each with a 50 percent chance to stun so it's guarenteed to stun if you use both. That was the comparison I was making, let me correct myself before we go any further then, I like the extremely likely damage potential.

Now you continue to harp on about 1 comment I made in the large statement about a situational purpose which I have explained I have explained as such twice now mind you.

Sunders arms debuff isn't anything to get excited about but it's alright for early levels if your 1v1 against a vangaurd or something I guess.

Sunder armor though has a great debuff for armor.


Both of them have situational purposes for different things though like I said. To give another example mighty blow and if not that critical strike almost always stun ogres and the sylvans and other giant creatures and I've often had the sunder abilities get interrupted before the slight time more it takes for the second swing in which case you get no debuffs.

What's the point in discussing critical percentages when one talent does more damage than the other regardless?    Is it about the stun?   Does the 50% chance to stun that Ogre for about 2 seconds   *really* make a difference here?   Really?

  Oh,  and by the way,  A Sylvan's Roots attack  can   interrupt your Mighty Blow, too, mid-swing...  And when it does, it's even worse, since Mighty Blow is more expensive to activate than Sunder Arms, and you just lost the stamina for attempting it.

You can get up to +45 critical damage so assuming you hit both sunder attacks it will either be equal or slightly more damage.

I was just making the point that mighty blow though not significanly is faster than sunder arms because while it is significantly faster than 2 auto hits it's still two hits.

The stun on the ogre actually does really make a difference, few attacks have the abiltity to do so and it can be up to 4 seconds and since war cry pommel strike and two haned sweep hardly if ever work on an ogre it's always been stunned from my crits and if both are stuns which isn't exactly a crazy chance since it's a 50% chance then you can pretty much kill it without taking damage.

[soteria]

You know, it's hard to take you seriously when you can't even figure out the basic rules of probability. If you want people to take you seriously, I'd suggest knowing how the numbers you're throwing around work, as all you've succeeded in doing is proving to me that your math is suspect. And if your math is suspect, then what else is?

What? You mean we can't just add 50% + 50% to get 100%? And here I thought flipping a coin twice *always* guaranteed an outcome of heads at least once.

While it is called FINAL blow lol, not much use in early battle.

Final Blow is a very poor ability. Either you use it in the beginning of the fight when you have stamina, dealing high damage but crippling yourself, or you use it at the end when you don't have stamina, dealing only medicore damage when it doesn't matter in any event. If you have a lot of stamina left at the end of a fight, you're not using enough specials during the course of it--besides which, the potential to possibly one-shot the last standing Genlock really isn't that impressive.

Both of them have situational purposes for different things though like I said. To give another example mighty blow and if not that critical strike almost always stun ogres and the sylvans and other giant creatures and I've often had the sunder abilities get interrupted before the slight time more it takes for the second swing in which case you get no debuffs.

Situational? By "situational," do you mean, "use sunder every time it comes off cooldown and the swing timer permits"? It's the most efficient, highest damage, and quickest refreshing damage ability a 2h warrior has. That's not "situational." Mighty Blow and its less efficient cousin, Critical Strike, are situational.

[Madax132]

soteria wrote...

You know, it's hard to take you seriously when you can't even figure out the basic rules of probability. If you want people to take you seriously, I'd suggest knowing how the numbers you're throwing around work, as all you've succeeded in doing is proving to me that your math is suspect. And if your math is suspect, then what else is?

What? You mean we can't just add 50% + 50% to get 100%? And here I thought flipping a coin twice *always* guaranteed an outcome of heads at least once.

While it is called FINAL blow lol, not much use in early battle.

Final Blow is a very poor ability. Either you use it in the beginning of the fight when you have stamina, dealing high damage but crippling yourself, or you use it at the end when you don't have stamina, dealing only medicore damage when it doesn't matter in any event. If you have a lot of stamina left at the end of a fight, you're not using enough specials during the course of it--besides which, the potential to possibly one-shot the last standing Genlock really isn't that impressive.

Both of them have situational purposes for different things though like I said. To give another example mighty blow and if not that critical strike almost always stun ogres and the sylvans and other giant creatures and I've often had the sunder abilities get interrupted before the slight time more it takes for the second swing in which case you get no debuffs.

Situational? By "situational," do you mean, "use sunder every time it comes off cooldown and the swing timer permits"? It's the most efficient, highest damage, and quickest refreshing damage ability a 2h warrior has. That's not "situational." Mighty Blow and its less efficient cousin, Critical Strike, are situational.

Coded systems don't work the same way as a coin flip. From my expierience I've always had one of them stun and never have both of them not stun.

As I've said with good gear crits do equal to or slightly less then the sunder abilities in a bit less time. I've never argued against them being efficicent, I use them a lot myself but that doesn't fall into the category of how good the ability itself is.

[Yrkoon]

Madax132 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

What's the point in discussing critical percentages when one talent does more damage than the other regardless?    Is it about the stun?   Does the 50% chance to stun that Ogre for about 2 seconds   *really* make a difference here?   Really?

  Oh,  and by the way,  A Sylvan's Roots attack  can   interrupt your Mighty Blow, too, mid-swing...  And when it does, it's even worse, since Mighty Blow is more expensive to activate than Sunder Arms, and you just lost the stamina for attempting it.

You can get up to +45 critical damage so assuming you hit both sunder attacks it will either be equal or slightly more damage.

How so?  If a critical hit's damage  = 150% of 1 normal hit, and you've got gear to increase that percentage to 195%, that's still going to come out to less damage than 2 normal hits.

I was just making the point that mighty blow though not significanly is faster than sunder arms because while it is significantly faster than 2 auto hits it's still two hits.

  I  have no clue what you're saying here.

The stun on the ogre actually does really make a difference, few attacks have the abiltity to do so and it can be up to 4 seconds and since war cry pommel strike and two haned sweep hardly if ever work on an ogre it's always been stunned from my crits and if both are stuns which isn't exactly a crazy chance since it's a 50% chance then you can pretty much kill it without taking damage.

Is it my turn to  dismiss the *cans* now?    I can deal with assumptions  (I make them too), but  you're making 5 of them here at once! 

1) that your stun will last 4 seconds.   A  4 second stun is optimal.    in reality, a 2-hander's stun will be  between 1.5-4 seconds in duration. 

2) You're assuming that you're going to stun your opponent  (again, that's the optimal result) in reality, you have a 50% chance not to.

3) You're assuming   that both your  mighty blow *and* your Critical strike  will land in the first place.

4)  and that you'll be able to land both of them  them without interruption from that hostile Ogre's slam attack... or his grab... or his rock hurl...


5) that you'll land both,  without interruption, score 2 stuns,  both will last 4 seconds, and   the result will be 1-dead-ogre vs. a 2hander that took zero damage in the fight.

^Stacking one assumption on top of another....   on top of a 3rd... then on top of a 4th,  then on top of a 5th!    And then concluding that talent  X  does more than talent Y because of 1-5.   I believe Beancounter would call that  "theory crafting".


I, on the otherhand, call it desperate debating. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 août 2010 - 05:21 .

[Sidney]

I see a lot of talk about damage here but survivability is the problem for 2HW. I could just hook an injury kit IV up to Oghren. You can load them up with all the armor you want but it just isn't enough to give them good survivability. I know they aren't a "tank" in the WoW sense but unless you have a heavy party (2 warriors) you need that 1 warrior to draw fire and absorb hits.

[Yrkoon]

Well to be fair, Oghren (and Sten btw) are terribly built out of the box. I don't recommend holding them up them as the poster children of the 2-handed warrior style. Also, 2-handers have to be micro-managed in order to see their brilliance. Simply winding them up with a bunch of programmed tactics then sending them out on their own to do their thing probably isn't a good idea.



But for what it's worth, a 2-hander is the only character that I've ever been able to get the "I'm kinda a big deal" achievement with.

[soteria]

Coded systems don't work the same way as a coin flip. From my expierience I've always had one of them stun and never have both of them not stun.

The first sentence is meaningless and the second is rubbish. "Coded systems don't work like a coin flip." No kidding, Sherlock. Unless, of course, the outcome has an unmodified 50% chance of success. "From my experience..." What's your point? If I told you, "from my expierience I've always gotten tails once and never gotten heads twice," would you draw any conclusions from that?

As I've said with good gear crits do equal to or slightly less then the sunder abilities in a bit less time. I've never argued against them being efficicent, I use them a lot myself but that doesn't fall into the category of how good the ability itself is.

At this point, I'm not really even sure what you're trying to say anymore.  I can't even make sense of that last (run-on) sentence.  I'm not one to harp on grammar, but in this case the meaning has been lost.

Modifié par soteria, 08 août 2010 - 05:02 .

[Elhanan]

The OP mentioned STR and Willpower, though recommending restricting investments. Do any of the number crunchers know when invested STR and/or Will (maybe DEX, too) begin to show signs of diminishing returns? Like when is it a good idea to cap Will, DEX, and STR?

[soteria]

Strength will always be beneficial to a 2h warrior. If you're raising dexterity for defense on a 2h warrior, (I recommend against it, but if you do), it's beneficial until you reach around 150 defense, at which point it starts to drop in value. Willpower is hard to quantify. My opinion is that before deathblow, if you're ending the fight with excess stamina, you have more willpower than you need. After deathblow, that check only applies to boss fights. For other fights, you want to have enough stamina to run your sustains and use a comfortable number of specials before deathblow kicks in.

[d3c0yBoY]

Sidney wrote...

I see a lot of talk about damage here but survivability is the problem for 2HW. I could just hook an injury kit IV up to Oghren. You can load them up with all the armor you want but it just isn't enough to give them good survivability. I know they aren't a "tank" in the WoW sense but unless you have a heavy party (2 warriors) you need that 1 warrior to draw fire and absorb hits.

Survivability for 2Handers is only rough up until you get sweep. Afterwards you are golden. Indominable prevents stun/knockdown chains and sweep gives solid damage/AoE knockback. Knockback = no damage. They achieve uber tank status once you nab Champion's Rally knockback. Huge defence buff, Stun/KB immunity, CC, plus Powerful/Massive armor makes them superior imo.

As for the Final Blow debacle, Its an ability that drains all your stamina with mediocre trade off. There are much stronger 4tier investments such as Holy smite and Superiority. A Perfect Striked Mighty Blow will give me better results and still have have my stamina to follow up with a PS Sunder Armor, etc. You get the idea.

[d3c0yBoY]

Yrkoon wrote...


But for what it's worth, a 2-hander is the only character that I've ever been able to get the "I'm kinda a big deal" achievement with.

This is my new Sig.

[Elhanan]

I found base 70 STR near the Landsmeet to be a decent target number. Is this standard too low?

[soteria]

I found base 70 STR near the Landsmeet to be a decent target number. Is this standard too low?

/shrug. Only you can answer that. Your original question was whether strength started to have diminishing benefits after a certain point. It doesn't, mathematically (AFAIK... Random70?). Whether you need or want to increase your damage output is a question only the individual player can answer. Certainly, 70 strength is enough to be effective.

[d3c0yBoY]

I say go higher. I'm comfortable with the numbers given by Fade and gear to my other stats. Dex may be the only consideration for increasing only because I feel Scattershot synergies well with 2H tanks. Con is good in the 20s and Will needs a lot before you notice optimal results. Other than that, its safe to say that you could hulk out without repercussion.