733 réponses à ce sujet

[jds1bio]

jb1983 wrote...

Bioware needs to take everyone into a room and have them watch this thing on the big screen.

This is seriously one of the best replies to the ending I've seen. Scratch that. It's the best reply.

Maybe while they're eating the cupcakes.

[Lmaoboat]

Eterna5 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

But he's wrong. Lots of Stories end on unexplained cliffhangers.

He's wrong about a lot of other things that just really come down to opinion. I don't know why you guys think he's so great. He has some points, but mostly it's just personal bias.

The guy actually understand genre, and plot structure and is pointing out why the ending is awful.

Why the ending was awful to him. No matter how bad a ending truly is there will always be someone out there who likes it and interprets it differently. Now I myself am not a strong fan of the endings, but they are in no way broken, they just don't end like we had hoped. 

I disagree.

I think there is such a thing as an objective failure of a story from a writing point of view. You are right, people can like poorly written things, but it doesn't change them from being technically poor (from a literary sense). 

And that is what this guy is pointing out. 

 I suppose it depends on how you're discussing it. From a plot hole point of view, it's poor. From a cliffhanger/Grimdark ending, it's perfectly valid. 

I don't really consider it Grimdark, because I didn't even care that Shepard died. I didn't feel sad at all, I just felt nothing. I think the ending is broken, because it didn't really feel like an ending at all.

[jb1983]

FemmeShep wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

But he's wrong. Lots of Stories end on unexplained cliffhangers.

He's wrong about a lot of other things that just really come down to opinion. I don't know why you guys think he's so great. He has some points, but mostly it's just personal bias.

The guy actually understand genre, and plot structure and is pointing out why the ending is awful.

Why the ending was awful to him. No matter how bad a ending truly is there will always be someone out there who likes it and interprets it differently. Now I myself am not a strong fan of the endings, but they are in no way broken, they just don't end like we had hoped. 

I disagree.

I think there is such a thing as an objective failure of a story from a writing point of view. You are right, people can like poorly written things, but it doesn't change them from being technically poor (from a literary sense). 

And that is what this guy is pointing out. 

It's more than that. It's more on the philosophical sense. 

In order to approach literary styles and rules, we have to first approach what makes a good story. And he nailed it; it has to be internally consistent. If it's not logically consistent within itself, then it fails (this works for all systems of philosophy). 

The narrative cohesion is the greatest manifestation of this, and as he points out they lost it. 

Thus, the endings not only violate good writing, they simply violate human nature. Those who like the endings are simply interpreting them in a different way, or connecting dots that aren't there. This is why they can tell you they like the endings, but not why the endings are good. 

[Eterna]

admcmei wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

But he's wrong. Lots of Stories end on unexplained cliffhangers.

He's wrong about a lot of other things that just really come down to opinion. I don't know why you guys think he's so great. He has some points, but mostly it's just personal bias.

Thats exactly what i view about your opinions

How very insightful and intelligent. 

Yep all i heard was "Hes wrong and i disagree, its opinion" mind telling us why hes wrong?

I told you why, plenty of stories end on cliffhangers. 

Yeah, except it's not what the guy's saying. He's saying (rightfully) that they changed the whole focus of the story in 14 lines of dialogue.

No they didn't, the whole story is focused on dealing with the reapers. The reapers were dealt with. 

[Desteron]

That was fantastic!

[evermandibles]

Slow, yet purposeful clap.

[Iwillbeback]

Seems interesting...I will watch it later.

[FortitudeSon]

Excellent, coherent criticism.  Really shows how the plot collapses within 5 minutes.

Modifié par FortitudeSon, 28 mars 2012 - 06:38 .

[The_Crazy_Hand]

I LOVE the fact that he ended it by slamming "clarification"

[MisterP146]

Fantastic video.

[FierceReaper]

Eterna5 wrote...



No they didn't, the whole story is focused on dealing with the reapers. The reapers were dealt with. 

Wat? I thought you said it was a cliffhanger. How is it a cliffhanger if the prime goal of the story was 'dealt with'?

[FemmeShep]

What I think the guy nails, is that the story of Mass Effect is about the characters, NOT the reapers.

This is so true. Star Wars was never about the force, Darth Vader, or the Emperor. Sure that was apart of the world, and the complex mythology. But the story was ultimately about Luke, Han, Leia and the relationships they built with one another. Literally, that was the core of the movies. That's what made them so incredible. The journey would have been nothing without them.

Conversely, the Star Wars prequels sucked so bad, because they were all about that the other stuff (the force, light sabers, the mythology and world). It had no likable characters, and no one we could relate to or get invested in. And what do you know...the Prequels SUCKED.

So I think he's spot on when he says, the endings ultimate failure, is that the writers missed the point of what made Mass Effect, Mass Effect. Sure the Reaper story is the main conflict, but that wasn't what the game's story was ultimately about. And it's the betrayal of this in the last 10 min of the plot that absolutely spits on the audience.

Honestly, the ending to Mass Effect 3 is not Shepard's story, It's the Catalyst's (or ie. the reapers) story. Literally, 99% of that ending is about fulfilling the AI's solution, and is completely devoid of our characters. And even Shepard him/herself is in a daze, and just going along with it. That's why I don't get why anyone thinks the ending was tragic, or heroic that Shepard gave up his life. The whole set up was so poorly done, it was bafflingly bad.

Modifié par FemmeShep, 28 mars 2012 - 06:46 .

[Yakko77]

I love how he keeps trying to shoot the kid. Lord knows I tried too!

An awesome video, one of if not the best and well articulated but at the same time I hate these videos because it causes me to hate the ending more and more the more its flaws are explained.

[FemmeShep]

Eterna5 wrote...

admcmei wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

But he's wrong. Lots of Stories end on unexplained cliffhangers.

He's wrong about a lot of other things that just really come down to opinion. I don't know why you guys think he's so great. He has some points, but mostly it's just personal bias.

Thats exactly what i view about your opinions

How very insightful and intelligent. 

Yep all i heard was "Hes wrong and i disagree, its opinion" mind telling us why hes wrong?

I told you why, plenty of stories end on cliffhangers. 

Yeah, except it's not what the guy's saying. He's saying (rightfully) that they changed the whole focus of the story in 14 lines of dialogue.

No they didn't, the whole story is focused on dealing with the reapers. The reapers were dealt with. 

Then I'm sorry, you completely missed the point of the story.

Yes, the Reapers are the driving antagonist. Yes, they are the main threat of the game. But the game was not about them. That's like saying LOTR was entirely about Sauron.

If that's what you think, then you miss the point of what makes a good story good. Might explain why poor writing gets a pass by you. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 28 mars 2012 - 06:47 .

[VigilancePress]

I said it in the other thread, I'll repeat it here: Nailed it!

As he says in the video, everyone makes mistakes. The BioWare crew (in my opinion) seriously stubbed their collective toes here. People talk about extending the existing ending, and I go back and forth on the issue, but this video makes a VERY strong argument for just dumping the existing ending and doing something completely different.

I know I wouldn't cry over the loss of the 'Starchild" scene if it were completely cut.

[Arllekin]

 Very nice!, someone gives the man a cookie.
oh wait ,  there you go.

Modifié par Arllekin, 28 mars 2012 - 06:54 .

[M12311]

One of the best videos on the Me3 endings out there.

[CYRAX470]

Well, see ya later Wisconsin.

Modifié par CYRAX470, 28 mars 2012 - 06:50 .

[Xandurpein]

evermandibles wrote...



Slow, yet purposeful clap.

+1

[bryan12112]

Excellent vid.

[sydranark]

Excellent video; well thought-out and supported. The devs need to watch this, they might learn a thing or two about their own series.

[FatalX7.0]

Sovereign z wrote...

Turtlicious wrote...



I found this, it's AWESOME. I LOVE it, I find it very good and reccomend everyone watch it.

Link is now clickable


Seriously people, it's not that hard to link something and only takes a couple seconds to do so.


Edit*

In regard to the topic, looks very interesting and I'll look at it later. Thanks for postingt this OP.

Chill out.

Not everyone is aware of what the tags are.

[SimKoning]

Maybe instead of "Retake Mass Effect", it should be "REMOVE STARCHILD!"

[Lanceare]

Fantastic. Everyone should see this. I hope the powers that be at Bioware watch it.

[FemmeShep]

jb1983 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

But he's wrong. Lots of Stories end on unexplained cliffhangers.

He's wrong about a lot of other things that just really come down to opinion. I don't know why you guys think he's so great. He has some points, but mostly it's just personal bias.

The guy actually understand genre, and plot structure and is pointing out why the ending is awful.

Why the ending was awful to him. No matter how bad a ending truly is there will always be someone out there who likes it and interprets it differently. Now I myself am not a strong fan of the endings, but they are in no way broken, they just don't end like we had hoped. 

I disagree.

I think there is such a thing as an objective failure of a story from a writing point of view. You are right, people can like poorly written things, but it doesn't change them from being technically poor (from a literary sense). 

And that is what this guy is pointing out. 

It's more than that. It's more on the philosophical sense. 

In order to approach literary styles and rules, we have to first approach what makes a good story. And he nailed it; it has to be internally consistent. If it's not logically consistent within itself, then it fails (this works for all systems of philosophy). 

The narrative cohesion is the greatest manifestation of this, and as he points out they lost it. 

Thus, the endings not only violate good writing, they simply violate human nature. Those who like the endings are simply interpreting them in a different way, or connecting dots that aren't there. This is why they can tell you they like the endings, but not why the endings are good. 

Agreed, I didn't mean to over-simplify it.

I just don't buy the "subjective" argument to a certain degree. Because, I think something can be technically/objectively bad, and yet someone can "subjectively" like it. Doesn't change it from being poorly written. People can like poor things.

This video (for the most part) focused on technical stuff such as genre, narrative cohesion, contradicting themes/plot.

Modifié par FemmeShep, 28 mars 2012 - 06:57 .