345 réponses à ce sujet

[Tony208]

CavScout wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You can say the "Geth never wanted" but in the end they did. The Geth didn't have to slaughter and then expell the Quarians. Yet they did.

Yeah having your back to a wall and being threatened with complete extermination by a hostile force never caused anyone to fight or die.  Oh wait...

The Geth could have left. The decided not to.

How do you leave when someone is pointing a gun at you with the intent of using it?
The Geth did leave when they had the chance, they left the Quarians alone.

[The Angry One]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I would love to see these hints.

The fact that Tali admits the Quarians attacked first, that you can have Shepard express a degree of sympathy for the Geth, and that the Geth demonstrated an odd, almost religious reverence for Sovereign (which hinted at more complexity than simple killbots).

And, no I'm not ignoring ME3. The person I was responding to expressily omitted it, thus I did as well. I agree that ME3 seemed to show that synthetics and organics could live peacably together. I agree that it seemed to contradict itself.

That's just the way I talk. In any case that kind of contradiction is why I can't come to terms with the ending.
I made a whole rant about the disconnect between the Rannoch arc (my personal favourite) and the ending and why it frustrates me.

[CronoDragoon]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

There are a couple of missions total that involve Geth before you meet Legion in ME2, who has heavy exposition fleshing out the true Geth.
Even in ME1 there were hints that the Geth were more than they seemed.

And you ignore that in ME3 it flat out beats you over the head with the concept that the Geth are truly peaceful and victims of organic belligerence. ME3 violates it's OWN themes more than that of the other two games in the ending.

I would love to see these hints.

And, no I'm not ignoring ME3. The person I was responding to expressily omitted it, thus I did as well. I agree that ME3 seemed to show that synthetics and organics could live peacably together. I agree that it seemed to contradict itself.

I also didnt clarify this, but when I said "spent two games showing one thing" I was referring to ME2 and ME3, mostly because I doubt when they wrote ME1 they had planned to make the geth sympathetic, and basically spent an entire squadmate showing how the geth that attacked in ME1 did so apart from the general consensus.

[Jackal7713]

The Angry One wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The Geth attacked in ME1...

Under Sovereign's control.
Come on, at least do some research.

 Yes Sovereign was the cause of the Eden Prime attack. The Geth that followed him were heretics, but you only found that out from Legion in ME 2. Its in the whole Nazara conversation.

[The Angry One]

CavScout wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Who started the war on Eden Prime?

Sovereign.

Even Tali tells you about the inevitability... no different than the Catalyst.

Tali was proven wrong. Tali can eventually end up telling a Geth it has a soul, and mourning it's death.

Germany and France made peace in 1918.... how'd that permanent peace work out for them?

Peace for 1 year, 10, years 100 years between synthetics and organics does not refute the inevitability argument.

How about 300 years of total Geth occupation of Rannoch.
They not only did not exterminate organic life there, but cleaned the toxins and fallout from the Morning War to restore the biosphere.

[cerberus1701]

HenchxNarf wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Again, there was NO issue between the Geth and organics until he showed up.

Other than the Quarians killing the Geth and Geth rebelling. I think that happened before Saren though.

Yes. Quarians start slaughtering the Geth.

Geth fight back. (wouldn't you?) 

Quarians leave.

Fight's over.

Geth could easily pursue. Choose not to. De facto peace is achieved. The very fact that the Geth don't finish off the Quarians is evidence of their lack of hostility. They simply wanted to continue to exist.

[CavScout]

Tony208 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You can say the "Geth never wanted" but in the end they did. The Geth didn't have to slaughter and then expell the Quarians. Yet they did.

Yeah having your back to a wall and being threatened with complete extermination by a hostile force never caused anyone to fight or die.  Oh wait...

The Geth could have left. The decided not to.

How do you leave when someone is pointing a gun at you with the intent of using it?
The Geth did leave when they had the chance, they left the Quarians alone.

Ummm, they forced the Qaurians into exile.... oh, and they surly could have left when they kicked the Quarians off planet.... yet they didn't.

[The Angry One]

CavScout wrote...

Ummm, they forced the Qaurians into exile.... oh, and they surly could have left when they kicked the Quarians off planet.... yet they didn't.

Why would they? It's as much their home as the Quarians. If the Quarians would've stopped shooting at them for 5 minutes they would've relented.

This is by the way exactly what happens in ME3. Quarians stop shooting, Geth immediately stop.
This after the Quarians committed genocide on the Geth.

[CronoDragoon]

greengoron89 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

It does the counter-movement no credit either that most pro-ending threads have an OP that contains either implied or blatant insults of people who don't like the ending. It's a cycle in which both sides ****** the other off and start insult chains and flame wars. Don't pretend one side is good and the other bad.

You assume that there actually is a "counter-movement" (or that there are only two sides), and not just people who simply disagree with the RME movement but are otherwise unassociated with one another.

And I can tell you that's I've seen RME people incite flame wars far, far more than the other way around - you're the largest and most vocal "side" of this conflict, after all, and no one likes it when someone goes against the status quo.

Of course you see more inciting posts from ending haters; like you say there are a lot more of us. It does not mean that the ratio of civil people to uncivil people is different.

[Jackal7713]

Tony208 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You can say the "Geth never wanted" but in the end they did. The Geth didn't have to slaughter and then expell the Quarians. Yet they did.

Yeah having your back to a wall and being threatened with complete extermination by a hostile force never caused anyone to fight or die.  Oh wait...

The Geth could have left. The decided not to.

How do you leave when someone is pointing a gun at you with the intent of using it?
The Geth did leave when they had the chance, they left the Quarians alone.

Agreed. Thats why no one saw them for a 100 so years. Only when Nazara went to them did the Geth split.

[CavScout]

The Angry One wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Ummm, they forced the Qaurians into exile.... oh, and they surly could have left when they kicked the Quarians off planet.... yet they didn't.

Why would they? It's as much their home as the Quarians. If the Quarians would've stopped shooting at them for 5 minutes they would've relented.

This is by the way exactly what happens in ME3. Quarians stop shooting, Geth immediately stop.
This after the Quarians committed genocide on the Geth.

The genocide was committed against the Quarians... if they wouldn't have fled, they'd all be dead.

[SandTrout]

CavScout wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

but what about loyal fans who loved the ending?

Don't get the DLC if there is one.

Maybe you shouldn't have bought the game with the ending it has.

I wouldn't have bought the game if the developers hadn't lied to me about the ending.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

CavScout wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Who started the war on Eden Prime?

Sovereign.

Even Tali tells you about the inevitability... no different than the Catalyst.

Tali was proven wrong. Tali can eventually end up telling a Geth it has a soul, and mourning it's death.

Germany and France made peace in 1918.... how'd that permanent peace work out for them?

Peace for 1 year, 10, years 100 years between synthetics and organics does not refute the inevitability argument.

I would be more willing to believe the 'synthetics and organics are always doomed to fight' line if there had been another line of dialog from the starchild that went something like "We have seen peace between synthetic and organic 12,578 times in our eons of cycles.  It has never lasted a single time.  The synthetics always outpace the organics and eventually turn on them."  But as it stands, there is no proof EITHER way that everyone is doomed.


And really, before the last 5 minutes of ME3 I never thought 'synthetics vs organics' was supposed to be the almighty central theme of Mass Effect.  That came completely out of left field.  (Gee, maybe because they scrapped Drew's original ending).   That conversation with Tali in engineering in ME1 is basically "Well attacking them was your own dumb fault."  They were ominous but what you learn from Legion in ME2 basically  undoes all of that (also EDI in ME2) so by the time ME3 rolls around any silly thoughts of 'all synthetics = evil' are gone. 

The fact that the Reapers are mostly synthetic does not automatically equate all synthetics as bad.  Really the Reapers could have been organics in huge ships or beings of energy and they would still be 'the big bad.'  The only difference is that them being immortal mechagod synthetics makes them scarier antagonists than the other 2 options.

-edit- Forum formatting fail.

Modifié par Mighty_BOB_cnc, 28 mars 2012 - 07:19 .

[Tony208]

CavScout wrote...

Tony208 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You can say the "Geth never wanted" but in the end they did. The Geth didn't have to slaughter and then expell the Quarians. Yet they did.

Yeah having your back to a wall and being threatened with complete extermination by a hostile force never caused anyone to fight or die.  Oh wait...

The Geth could have left. The decided not to.

How do you leave when someone is pointing a gun at you with the intent of using it?
The Geth did leave when they had the chance, they left the Quarians alone.

Ummm, they forced the Qaurians into exile.... oh, and they surly could have left when they kicked the Quarians off planet.... yet they didn't.

Forced the Quarians in to exile? Please remember that the Quarians are the instigators here. The Quarians were still shooting at them. After they Quarians started retreating, the Geth stopped.

[CavScout]

SandTrout wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

but what about loyal fans who loved the ending?

Don't get the DLC if there is one.

Maybe you shouldn't have bought the game with the ending it has.

I wouldn't have bought the game if the developers hadn't lied to me about the ending.

Mistaken assumptions are not lies by others.

[The Angry One]

CavScout wrote...

The genocide was committed against the Quarians... if they wouldn't have fled, they'd all be dead.

I'm talking about events just prior to ME3, the Quarians destroyed the Geth's Dyson Shell type structure and murdered vast amounts of Geth programs.

The Quarians fled because they refused to stop and make peace with the Geth. The Geth had to fight for self preservation, the moment they didn't, they stopped.

[CronoDragoon]

CavScout wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Ummm, they forced the Qaurians into exile.... oh, and they surly could have left when they kicked the Quarians off planet.... yet they didn't.

Why would they? It's as much their home as the Quarians. If the Quarians would've stopped shooting at them for 5 minutes they would've relented.

This is by the way exactly what happens in ME3. Quarians stop shooting, Geth immediately stop.
This after the Quarians committed genocide on the Geth.

The genocide was committed against the Quarians... if they wouldn't have fled, they'd all be dead.

Meaning what? If they continued to war against the geth? Yes, the geth would defend themselves. But the moment the quarians ran, the geth stopped attacking. The moment the quarians stopped attacking in present-day, the geth did as well.

Let's also remember that Legion upgraded the geth with Reaper technology to make them individuals. Each platform now reaches its own consensus. This is a huge step in preventing a race-wide consensus of the geth to attack organics because they are organics.

[Jackal7713]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...


I also didnt clarify this, but when I said "spent two games showing one thing" I was referring to ME2 and ME3, mostly because I doubt when they wrote ME1 they had planned to make the geth sympathetic, and basically spent an entire squadmate showing how the geth that attacked in ME1 did so apart from the general consensus.

Ah. I thought you were talking about the first two games, my mistake.

But my point about ME2 partially stands. You only find out at pretty much the end of the game that the geth are not enemies.

And ME3 does appear to contradict the Catalyst. I agree that's a problem that it isn't at least addressed. But, again, basing my opinion on the fact that the Catalyst is thousands and thousands of years old, I can make the inferrence that the peace will not last.

The series itself contradicts the Catalyst. This is why its a major plot hole.

[CronoDragoon]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The fact that Tali admits the Quarians attacked first, that you can have Shepard express a degree of sympathy for the Geth, and that the Geth demonstrated an odd, almost religious reverence for Sovereign (which hinted at more complexity than simple killbots).

That's just the way I talk. In any case that kind of contradiction is why I can't come to terms with the ending.
I made a whole rant about the disconnect between the Rannoch arc (my personal favourite) and the ending and why it frustrates me.

1. No one is saying the Geth are common killbots. But, I don't see any proof of them being sympathetic to organics, is the point.

You mean before ME3? Because they are shown to be sympathetic towards organics in ME3.