345 réponses à ce sujet

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

You assume that there actually is a "counter-movement" (or that there are only two sides), and not just people who simply disagree with the RME movement but are otherwise unassociated with one another.

And I can tell you that I've seen RME people incite flame wars far, far more than the other way around - you're the largest and most vocal "side" of this conflict, after all, and no one likes it when someone goes against the status quo.

For the record, I've seen no evidence of a counter-movement myself. I'm just here to shake things up a bit and try to get people to think.

There was a facebook page with like 27 people or something.  Not sure if it garnered any more attention than that.

[Ishiken]

Tony208 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Tony208 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Devils-DIVISION wrote...

If you're happy with the ending - then DON'T-buy-the-DLC!
But 91% (refer to BW poll) are unhappy. So go home!

oh the poll that had 71k people? yes that really seems logical for a mere 5% of the fanbase to demand things changed to a game that effects over 2.6 or more million fans. Why don't you get logic!

Dridengx fails yet again to understand statistics.

understanding is what you may find lacking in your statement. facts is what I presented which you clearly won't accept because doing so will lead to you admitting defeat. so I understand you will fight this until you are blue in the face.. it's okay... the only person who matters is you bro... *pats head*

What you fail to understand time and time again is that not everyone displeased with the ending will speak out against it. And then you assume those who don't speak out are ones who like it. Statistics shows that they don't.

It's not just statistics. EA and Bioware shows that the Retake Movement is not just some fringe minority. If it was just a fringe minority, then they wouldn't have tried to appease the Retake Movement with statements and promises of clarifying the ending. EA and Bioware is a business, and businesses have limited resources so the fact that they feel the need to divert resources to clarify the ending means that the end result in their calculations justify the cost. Dragon Age II ending was not well received either, but Bioware never promised to release something to address the situation.

[CronoDragoon]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

You assume that there actually is a "counter-movement" (or that there are only two sides), and not just people who simply disagree with the RME movement but are otherwise unassociated with one another.

And I can tell you that I've seen RME people incite flame wars far, far more than the other way around - you're the largest and most vocal "side" of this conflict, after all, and no one likes it when someone goes against the status quo.

For the record, I've seen no evidence of a counter-movement myself. I'm just here to shake things up a bit and try to get people to think.

Counter-movement was a poor choice of words, but it is evident that people who liked the endings have, by necessity, been referring to themselves in the same type of group-speak.

[Gibb_Shepard]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...


I also didnt clarify this, but when I said "spent two games showing one thing" I was referring to ME2 and ME3, mostly because I doubt when they wrote ME1 they had planned to make the geth sympathetic, and basically spent an entire squadmate showing how the geth that attacked in ME1 did so apart from the general consensus.

Ah. I thought you were talking about the first two games, my mistake.

But my point about ME2 partially stands. You only find out at pretty much the end of the game that the geth are not enemies.

And ME3 does appear to contradict the Catalyst. I agree that's a problem that it isn't at least addressed. But, again, basing my opinion on the fact that the Catalyst is thousands and thousands of years old, I can make the inferrence that the peace will not last.

But as a writer, you should know that TELLING your audience something is bad. You should show it to them.

Just step back and look at this. We have ME3 constantly, sometimes even forcefully, SHOWING us the sympathetic nature of AI. How they want peace, how they can conjure human emotions, how they change from a hive mind to indivduals. ME3 essentially "humanized" AI. It basically shoved the fact that AI and humanity can live in harmony down our throats..

Then, in the last 5 minutes, we're TOLD that is not true. That is almost objectively bad writing. 

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 28 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[The Angry One]

CronoDragoon wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

1. No one is saying the Geth are common killbots. But, I don't see any proof of them being sympathetic to organics, is the point.

You mean before ME3? Because they are shown to be sympathetic towards organics in ME3.

I assume they mean ME1. But then, that was the twist in ME2.
Also ME2 has a pretty huge hint that Geth are sympethetic towards organics in LotSB (Legion's file shows it donated to an Eden Prime charity).

[CavScout]

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Germany and France made peace in 1918.... how'd that permanent peace work out for them?

Peace for 1 year, 10, years 100 years between synthetics and organics does not refute the inevitability argument.

I would be more willing to believe the 'synthetics and organics are always doomed to fight' line if there had been another line of dialog from the starchild that went something like "We have seen peace between synthetic and organic 12,578 times in our eons of cycles.  It has never lasted a single time.  The synthetics always outpace the organics and eventually turn on them."  But as it stands, there is no proof EITHER way that everyone is doomed.


And really, before the last 5 minutes of ME3 I never thought 'synthetics
vs organics' was supposed to be the almighty central theme of Mass
Effect.  That came completely out of left field.  (Gee, maybe because
they scrapped Drew's original ending).   That conversation with Tali in
engineering in ME1 is basically "Well attacking them was your own dumb fault." 
They were ominous but what you learn from Legion in ME2 basically
undoes all of that (also EDI in ME2) so by the time ME3 rolls around any silly thoughts of 'all synthetics = evil' are gone. 

The
fact that the Reapers are mostly synthetic does not automatically
equate all synthetics as bad.  Really the Reapers could have been
organics in huge ships or beings of energy and they would still be 'the
big bad.'  The only difference is that them being immortal mechagod synthetics makes them scarier antagonists than the other 2 options.

Additional lines would have been useful dialog, but the people here arguing against it most likely would still be arguing against it. At the same time, I'd also say the extra lines are unnecessary. Thee is no reason to believe it is lying. It would be completely unrealistic to have millions of years of observation erased by weeks of Shepard's experience.

And synthetics are constantly, in the ME universe, portrayed badly. Heck, Javik's dialog supports it as well. We are reminded of the struggles between synthetics and organics constantly in the ME games.

Just remember, understanding he logic does not mean agreeing with it.

[Johcande XX]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

You assume that there actually is a "counter-movement" (or that there are only two sides), and not just people who simply disagree with the RME movement but are otherwise unassociated with one another.

And I can tell you that I've seen RME people incite flame wars far, far more than the other way around - you're the largest and most vocal "side" of this conflict, after all, and no one likes it when someone goes against the status quo.

For the record, I've seen no evidence of a counter-movement myself. I'm just here to shake things up a bit and try to get people to think.

Usually when someone debates on a forum for no other reason than to shake things up, it's akin to trolling.

edit:  nvm noticed your sig.

Modifié par Johcande XX, 28 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[CronoDragoon]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

The series itself contradicts the Catalyst. This is why its a major plot hole.

As I said before, "the series itself" does not. Just the very end of ME2 and most of ME3. one-third. Not insubstantial, by any means, but not absolutely everything.

But the very end of ME2 retcons the entirety of ME1 as well. If you believe that the end of ME2 shows the geth in a sympathetic light, then by the nature of knowing what actually was happening in ME1 (according to ME2) no longer paints a "synthetics will always try to kill organics" picture.

[Jackal7713]

CavScout wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

CavScout wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

but what about loyal fans who loved the ending?

Don't get the DLC if there is one.

Maybe you shouldn't have bought the game with the ending it has.

I wouldn't have bought the game if the developers hadn't lied to me about the ending.

Mistaken assumptions are not lies by others.

Come on Cav. Really now?  Don't make me pull the quotes.  There was some BS being said by Bioware people. 

Modifié par Jackal7713, 28 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[Tony208]

CavScout wrote...

The genocide was committed against the Quarians... if they wouldn't have fled, they'd all be dead.

What? You can't commit genocide in self-defense.

[CavScout]

The Angry One wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The genocide was committed against the Quarians... if they wouldn't have fled, they'd all be dead.

I'm talking about events just prior to ME3, the Quarians destroyed the Geth's Dyson Shell type structure and murdered vast amounts of Geth programs.

The Quarians fled because they refused to stop and make peace with the Geth. The Geth had to fight for self preservation, the moment they didn't, they stopped.

The Quarians were the ones slaughtered.

[CavScout]

Tony208 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The genocide was committed against the Quarians... if they wouldn't have fled, they'd all be dead.

What? You can't commit genocide in self-defense.

I am sure pretty much everyone who has comited genocide has claimed self-defense...

[cerberus1701]

CavScout wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Ummm, they forced the Qaurians into exile.... oh, and they surly could have left when they kicked the Quarians off planet.... yet they didn't.

Why would they? It's as much their home as the Quarians. If the Quarians would've stopped shooting at them for 5 minutes they would've relented.

This is by the way exactly what happens in ME3. Quarians stop shooting, Geth immediately stop.
This after the Quarians committed genocide on the Geth.

The genocide was committed against the Quarians... if they wouldn't have fled, they'd all be dead.

Not true. Not based on any evidence anyway.

Geth offered to "surrender their hardware" if it would cease hostilities to PROTECT Quarians pre-exodus.

If the Geth wanted the Quarians dead, they'd be dead. They would have been easy pickings as they fled Rannoch.

if the Geth had wanted to wipe out the Quarians they could have done so at many points.

It's the Geth that are perfectly open to ceasing hostilities, even after they are attacked in ME3.

The Quarians were perfectly happy to start the genocide again. The only thing they didn't count on was the Reapers making Geth 2.0, thereby screwing the Quarians.

[CronoDragoon]

The Angry One wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

1. No one is saying the Geth are common killbots. But, I don't see any proof of them being sympathetic to organics, is the point.

You mean before ME3? Because they are shown to be sympathetic towards organics in ME3.

I assume they mean ME1. But then, that was the twist in ME2.
Also ME2 has a pretty huge hint that Geth are sympethetic towards organics in LotSB (Legion's file shows it donated to an Eden Prime charity).

Haha, that is great! Legion is awesome.

[SandTrout]

CavScout wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

I wouldn't have bought the game if the developers hadn't lied to me about the ending.

Mistaken assumptions are not lies by others.

With all due respect, you are ignorant.

[Bourne Endeavor]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...


This is our main issue with the Catalyst. It refuses to tell us anything. Worse, we are never provided the opportunity for it to even deny. Shepard merely goes along with what is stated, something in clear contrast to her tendencies. There is no exposition or rationality behind either the Catalyst as a whole or Shepard's inaction. You are making assumptions and if Godboy did the same, we have reason to believe its logic may in fact, be flawed.

So, let me guess, it sounds like you have less of a problem with the ending in and of itself, and more with the explanation of it?


*thinks of the OP*

The issue with the ending is nothing makes sense, either because of lack of proper exposition or contradictions. I have no qualms with them blowing up the Citadel or even the Relays if it can be explained in game why those consequences both solve the present problem (Reapers) and does not doom the galaxy. Control and especially Synergy, rely purely on space magic. Basically, what we have in its current form is a plot hole riddled mess.

[cerberus1701]

CavScout wrote...

Tony208 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The genocide was committed against the Quarians... if they wouldn't have fled, they'd all be dead.

What? You can't commit genocide in self-defense.

I am sure pretty much everyone who has comited genocide has claimed self-defense...

I am a billionaire with wings.

Claim does not equal objective fact.

[The Angry One]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

1. No one is saying the Geth are common killbots. But, I don't see any proof of them being sympathetic to organics, is the point.

You mean before ME3? Because they are shown to be sympathetic towards organics in ME3.

I assume they mean ME1. But then, that was the twist in ME2.
Also ME2 has a pretty huge hint that Geth are sympethetic towards organics in LotSB (Legion's file shows it donated to an Eden Prime charity).

Haha, that is great! Legion is awesome.

Yeah I loved that. Legion is a pro gamer, who knew.
Specifically, Legion donated to an "Ultra Platinum" level to an Eden Prime charity which gave a game called Geth Attack for donations.
He never played the game. I thought it was a pretty touching bit of info.

[Jackal7713]

SandTrout wrote...

CavScout wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

I wouldn't have bought the game if the developers hadn't lied to me about the ending.

Mistaken assumptions are not lies by others.

With all due respect, you are ignorant.

I think this will help some people. Thank you.