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[The Angry One]

CavScout wrote...

I'd say many of the detractors have forgotten or ignore lore.

You mean the lore from a biased perspective, and even that perspective admits the Quarians started the war?

[CavScout]

CronoDragoon wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Gibb_ME2 retroactively brought question to the Geth in ME1.

ME3 is the biggest culprit of showing you one thing, and telling you another. Everything to do with the Geth and synthetic life in general completely contradicts the logic of the starchild. ME3 shows you that the Geth never wanted to kill their creators (rendering "creations will always kill their creators" invalid. Hell, the starchild himself renders that invalid, but i digress), and eventually came to peace with their creators. Throughout ME3 EDI is becoming more and more "human" one might say, and eventually falls in love with Joker. This shows that machine ad organic can "love" one another; that love is not mutually exclusive.

What we are shown throughout ME3 is absolutely contradictory to the general theme of the ending. It is this lack of general consistency that renders the ending poorly done from a literary standpoint.

You can say the "Geth never wanted" but in the end they did. The Geth didn't have to slaughter and then expell the Quarians. Yet they did.

The geth never wanted to kill the quarians; they only warred until it was clear they had won independence, then ceased and spared the rest. As soon as peace is achieved in ME3, they offer to help the quarians in any way possible.

The Geth attacked in ME1...

[CronoDragoon]

Jackal7713 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

jarrettwold wrote...

...and this thread has descended into trolling and rage. I'm ditching out on it.

LOL. This forum has descended into trolling and rage - as of three weeks ago.

And it's still goin' strong.

By the way, I don't need any "evidence" to believe that death threats have been made - the very nature of the RME movement lends itself to the idea. It's a movement characterized by its passion, relentlessness, and audacity in "holding the line", trying to goad BW to giving fans "a better ending."

That, plus the fact that every single thread made in this forum that doesn't fall in line with the movement is quickly mobbed - or even posts that do fall in line, but still degenerate into fiery feuds regardless.

It does the movement no credit, to put it lightly.

It does the counter-movement no credit either that most pro-ending threads have an OP that contains either implied or blatant insults of people who don't like the ending. It's a cycle in which both sides ****** the other off and start insult chains and flame wars. Don't pretend one side is good and the other bad.

I'm not trying to flame, but it seems like some of the pro-enders didn't play ME1 / ME 2  or didn't pay attention to the conversations. The reason why I say this is because they keep missing key points in the lore.

To be quite honest, it's posts like this that start the insult chain. Don't make assumptions about the person, just address their post with your own view.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

CavScout wrote...

Gibb_ME2 retroactively brought question to the Geth in ME1.

ME3 is the biggest culprit of showing you one thing, and telling you another. Everything to do with the Geth and synthetic life in general completely contradicts the logic of the starchild. ME3 shows you that the Geth never wanted to kill their creators (rendering "creations will always kill their creators" invalid. Hell, the starchild himself renders that invalid, but i digress), and eventually came to peace with their creators. Throughout ME3 EDI is becoming more and more "human" one might say, and eventually falls in love with Joker. This shows that machine ad organic can "love" one another; that love is not mutually exclusive.

What we are shown throughout ME3 is absolutely contradictory to the general theme of the ending. It is this lack of general consistency that renders the ending poorly done from a literary standpoint.

You can say the "Geth never wanted" but in the end they did. The Geth didn't have to slaughter and then expell the Quarians. Yet they did.

Yeah having your back to a wall and being threatened with complete extermination by a hostile force never caused anyone to fight or die.  Oh wait...

[The Angry One]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Catalyst might be old, but that doesn't mean it is any smarter than Shepard. Following through the consequences of all three endings, there's no real reason to believe it is a new solution. People can still make synthetics and Organ-Synthetics can still make synthetics. Further more there's no real evidence to say that synthetics would destroy all organics because it has clearly never happened before. If the spieces that had made the Reapers had a war with synthetics that they almost lost, why wouldn't they say "Okay, we're not making synthetics again". It doesn't make sense from a critical thinking point of view.

The synthetis cutscene seems to deny your physical condition point. Shepard clearly breaks into a flat out sprint towards the green beam thing, if he can run why can't he talk? It doesn't make sense.

1. Good points. But, how do you know it hasn't happened before? Synthetics might have destroyed all sentient organics, then life popped up later on and someone found the last recordings of the previous civilization that was destroyed by synthetics...who then vowed to make sure there were no more synthetics vs. organics wars. Not saying it's likely, but it's very possible.

2. I haven't seen that. If so, then you have me there.

www.youtube.com/watch

21:11 = Ethiopian Olympic sprinter time

[CavScout]

The Angry One wrote...

CavScout wrote...

I'd say many of the detractors have forgotten or ignore lore.

You mean the lore from a biased perspective, and even that perspective admits the Quarians started the war?

Who started the war on Eden Prime?

Even Tali tells you about the inevitability... no different than the Catalyst.

[CronoDragoon]

CavScout wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Gibb_ME2 retroactively brought question to the Geth in ME1.

ME3 is the biggest culprit of showing you one thing, and telling you another. Everything to do with the Geth and synthetic life in general completely contradicts the logic of the starchild. ME3 shows you that the Geth never wanted to kill their creators (rendering "creations will always kill their creators" invalid. Hell, the starchild himself renders that invalid, but i digress), and eventually came to peace with their creators. Throughout ME3 EDI is becoming more and more "human" one might say, and eventually falls in love with Joker. This shows that machine ad organic can "love" one another; that love is not mutually exclusive.

What we are shown throughout ME3 is absolutely contradictory to the general theme of the ending. It is this lack of general consistency that renders the ending poorly done from a literary standpoint.

You can say the "Geth never wanted" but in the end they did. The Geth didn't have to slaughter and then expell the Quarians. Yet they did.

The geth never wanted to kill the quarians; they only warred until it was clear they had won independence, then ceased and spared the rest. As soon as peace is achieved in ME3, they offer to help the quarians in any way possible.

The Geth attacked in ME1...

Since we are now switching from the geth/quarian war back to ME1, I'll reiterate that it was a splinter group of geth. Do you condemn all humans for the actions of Cerberus?

[The Angry One]

CavScout wrote...

The Geth attacked in ME1...

Under Sovereign's control.
Come on, at least do some research.

[Jackal7713]

CavScout wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

I'm not trying to flame, but it seems like some of the pro-enders didn't play ME1 / ME 2  or didn't pay attention to the conversations. The reason why I say this is because they keep missing key points in the lore.

I'd say many of the detractors have forgotten or ignore lore.

And then they insult people that are trying to help them understand the error to their argument.

Maybe someone should post a link to the wiki, so they can do some research?

[HenchxNarf]

Jackal7713 wrote...


I'm not trying to flame, but it seems like some of the pro-enders didn't play ME1 / ME 2  or didn't pay attention to the conversations. The reason why I say this is because they keep missing key points in the lore.

Generalizations everywhere!

I played ME1 four times
I played ME2 a good six or seven times
I played ME3 three times now, completely.

I haven't missed key points in the lore, just saying.

[CavScout]

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You can say the "Geth never wanted" but in the end they did. The Geth didn't have to slaughter and then expell the Quarians. Yet they did.

Yeah having your back to a wall and being threatened with complete extermination by a hostile force never caused anyone to fight or die.  Oh wait...

The Geth could have left. The decided not to.

[cerberus1701]

CavScout wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I apologize, I'm slowing working my way through responses here.

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Catalyst has not seen precisely the one thing he promises as inevitable.

Also, as a writer, you should know it is silly to spend two games showing one thing, then tell the audience the other at the end.

What would that be?

ME1: The synthetics want to kill organics
ME2: The Geth continue killing organics. Only at the very end of the game, when you get the last squad member, when there is literally only one more main quest mission to go, do you learn different.

Mass Effect does not have a history of saying synthetics and organics can coexist.

ME1 and ME2? Only a small group of synthetics (Heretics) and then only because Soveriegn came in and decided to stir the pot. Before he showed up the Geth were basically peacefully behind the Veil.

If by "peaceful" you mean killing anyone poking around... oh and they sided with Saren....

A) Yes. Peaceful. I wouldn't call any nation that suddenly said, "If anyone comes within 3 MI of our airspace or maritime border we're going to take them out." overtly hostile. They are xenophobic and isolationist and see encroachment on their borders as a provocation and respond accordingly.

They are not some plague waiting to decend upon the galaxy. They wish to be left alone. That message should have gotten around in three centuries, so if anyone goes poking past the Veil they should know what's coming and deserve what they get.

Saren? You mean that agent of Soveriegn the Troublemaker? That Saren?

Again, there was NO issue between the Geth and organics until he showed up.

[The Angry One]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So basically because you can disregard the first two games it's fine for you.
If you can't see what a massive storytelling failure that is right there for those of us who have in fact invested in all 3 games, I doubt you're much of a writer.

More attacks. I don't mind.

I didn't say I disregard the first two games. Where did I say that? I said they didn't have an emotional impact. You can invest in something without it having an emotional impact for other reasons, you know.

How is that an attack? You're the one who said they had no impact on you.

[CavScout]

CronoDragoon wrote...

CavScout wrote...
The Geth attacked in ME1...

Since we are now switching from the geth/quarian war back to ME1, I'll reiterate that it was a splinter group of geth. Do you condemn all humans for the actions of Cerberus?

So you admit the Geth attacked then?

[The Angry One]

CavScout wrote...

Who started the war on Eden Prime?

Sovereign.

Even Tali tells you about the inevitability... no different than the Catalyst.

Tali was proven wrong. Tali can eventually end up telling a Geth it has a soul, and mourning it's death.

[HenchxNarf]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Again, there was NO issue between the Geth and organics until he showed up.

Other than the Quarians killing the Geth and Geth rebelling. I think that happened before Saren though.

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

CavScout wrote...

Mighty_BOB_cnc wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You can say the "Geth never wanted" but in the end they did. The Geth didn't have to slaughter and then expell the Quarians. Yet they did.

Yeah having your back to a wall and being threatened with complete extermination by a hostile force never caused anyone to fight or die.  Oh wait...

The Geth could have left. The decided not to.

Hmm, good point, they could have fled instead of forcing the reversal.  Although I wonder if they just could not do that due to needing some critical immobile infrastructure at the time before they figured out full autonomy.  Total speculation of course.  Although they would likely have been hunted down so keeping the planet gave them a stronger advantage.

[Bourne Endeavor]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Catalyst might be old, but that doesn't mean it is any smarter than Shepard. Following through the consequences of all three endings, there's no real reason to believe it is a new solution. People can still make synthetics and Organ-Synthetics can still make synthetics. Further more there's no real evidence to say that synthetics would destroy all organics because it has clearly never happened before. If the spieces that had made the Reapers had a war with synthetics that they almost lost, why wouldn't they say "Okay, we're not making synthetics again". It doesn't make sense from a critical thinking point of view.

The synthetis cutscene seems to deny your physical condition point. Shepard clearly breaks into a flat out sprint towards the green beam thing, if he can run why can't he talk? It doesn't make sense.

1. Good points. But, how do you know it hasn't happened before? Synthetics might have destroyed all sentient organics, then life popped up later on and someone found the last recordings of the previous civilization that was destroyed by synthetics...who then vowed to make sure there were no more synthetics vs. organics wars. Not saying it's likely, but it's very possible.

2. I haven't seen that. If so, then you have me there.

This is our main issue with the Catalyst. It refuses to tell us anything. Worse, we are never provided the opportunity for it to even deny. Shepard merely goes along with what is stated, something in clear contrast to her tendencies. There is no exposition or rationality behind either the Catalyst as a whole or Shepard's inaction. You are making assumptions and if Godboy did the same, we have reason to believe its logic may in fact, be flawed.

[CronoDragoon]

CavScout wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

CavScout wrote...
The Geth attacked in ME1...

Since we are now switching from the geth/quarian war back to ME1, I'll reiterate that it was a splinter group of geth. Do you condemn all humans for the actions of Cerberus?

So you admit the Geth attacked then?

In Mass Effect 1, a rebel group of geth under Sovereign's control attacked. What of it?

[CavScout]

The Angry One wrote...

CavScout wrote...

Who started the war on Eden Prime?

Sovereign.

Even Tali tells you about the inevitability... no different than the Catalyst.

Tali was proven wrong. Tali can eventually end up telling a Geth it has a soul, and mourning it's death.

Germany and France made peace in 1918.... how'd that permanent peace work out for them?

Peace for 1 year, 10, years 100 years between synthetics and organics does not refute the inevitability argument.