136 réponses à ce sujet

[Steven83]

No excuses.
Adrenaline is trumped by Infiltration
Concussive Shot is trumped by Cryo Freeze
Frag Grenade isn't much of an advantage vs Sticky Grenade.

Everything else is identical.

So tell me, why would I bother going Human Soldier when Infiltrators has:
- Better survivability
- Higher dmg output.
- Same Shield / Health
- Better skill set.

[Sabresandiego]

Infiltrator is superior to soldier in almost every way and is the best weapon based class in the game. Soldiers can actually put out decent damage, but have no utility or survivability and are too dependant on cover. Overall, soldiers are among the worst classes in the game, and infiltrators are among the best.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 28 mars 2012 - 08:28 .

[aimlessgun]

You play a human soldier because you want to be a hipster.

[Notorious McG]

Quite frankly, you wouldn't. Soldier strikes me as a complete and utter token class as it stands.

When I first started MP I was a Soldier, I think I got the class to level 8 or so. I've promoted/reached level 20 on every other class and enjoyed doing so, but I have absolutely no desire to rank my Soldier class up. Even the Krogan/Turian options aren't massive improvements on their Human counterparts, although they are still better. Carnage and Marksman on their own are far more useful than Concussive Shot or Adrenaline. Personally, I haven't got much love for Grenades - I tend to max out the other options and not even touch the Grenade powers, regardless of class.

[dyeowart]

While your summary is more or less true, these aren't exactly direct comparisons. Adrenaline rush lasts for a lot more shots than cloak and frag grenade has a massively larger area than than sticky. Concussive shot is terrible, yes.

[Steven83]

dyeowart wrote...

While your summary is more or less true, these aren't exactly direct comparisons. Adrenaline rush lasts for a lot more shots than cloak and frag grenade has a massively larger area than than sticky. Concussive shot is terrible, yes.

With the current state of Rapid fire weapons having little damage compared to one-shot big damage weapons, I still feel Infiltration offers more dmg bonuses and functions than a flat dmg increment over longer seconds.

Reasons being:
1. Infiltration recharges faster. And does not force the infiltrator to commit.
Trigger it by mistake? Uncloak and recharge. You cannot do that as a Soldier.

2. Infiltration saves lives
Can't see a soldier reviving anyone in crossfires. A cloaked Infiltrator can do this and complete objectives.

3. Bigger damage bonus over shorter time
I can't see myself staying out of cover for longer than 2.5 seconds in Gold. The incoming damage is too massive for 825 shield to absorb. I rather pop out of stealth with a single shot widow, unleashing a cryo blast for armor weakening than pop Adrenaline, empty a clip of Mattock  and be forced to stay under cover till shields are restored.

What the Human Soldier needs is better shielding. If the Soldier class can actually gain 25% shield bonus and 25% shield recharge, it'd be slightly better than others and can stay alive to do their job.

Soldier Fitness buff needs to be different than others.

[dyeowart]

Steven83 wrote...

dyeowart wrote...

While your summary is more or less true, these aren't exactly direct comparisons. Adrenaline rush lasts for a lot more shots than cloak and frag grenade has a massively larger area than than sticky. Concussive shot is terrible, yes.

With the current state of Rapid fire weapons having little damage compared to one-shot big damage weapons, I still feel Infiltration offers more dmg bonuses and functions than a flat dmg increment over longer seconds.

Reasons being:
1. Infiltration recharges faster. And does not force the infiltrator to commit.
Trigger it by mistake? Uncloak and recharge. You cannot do that as a Soldier.

2. Infiltration saves lives
Can't see a soldier reviving anyone in crossfires. A cloaked Infiltrator can do this and complete objectives.

3. Bigger damage bonus over shorter time
I can't see myself staying out of cover for longer than 2.5 seconds in Gold. The incoming damage is too massive for 825 shield to absorb. I rather pop out of stealth with a single shot widow, unleashing a cryo blast for armor weakening than pop Adrenaline, empty a clip of Mattock  and be forced to stay under cover till shields are restored.

What the Human Soldier needs is better shielding. If the Soldier class can actually gain 25% shield bonus and 25% shield recharge, it'd be slightly better than others and can stay alive to do their job.

Soldier Fitness buff needs to be different than others.

Cloak is *better* in general yeah, but it's not like every single aspect is superior to adren rush (and adren rush can actually be specced to provide something very similar to the survivability bonus you're suggesting, but no idea if it works or not currently).

[Thiak]

the soldier is quite fun on silver, adrenaline with a decent ar (rev, phaeston) although i don't think it works on gold because you're out of cover for too long

[Indenter]

The 50% shield restore on adrenaline rush is from base shields...

So you get like 250 shields if you switch it on. Bah.

The 25% damage reduction is pretty meh as well. Considering the reuse starts after the duration of AR ends, it's kinda just ugly. Since you don't want duration, you want it reusing and up as soon as possible.

If the shields restore was 100% of base or 50% of max, and the damage reduction was higher, soldier could be a flexible class, switching from raw damage to beatbags.

I also play almost exclusively silver, on a soldier. Never bronze.
I find it decent.
I am not the first, almost never, but I shoot enough to not be behind a lot. I usually miss score by about 2k points.
You might say "oh soldiers are no asset". Well when your infiltrators are doing the capping, no one is really covering your asses for the infiltrator. Unless you just play this game to farm it and have 4 infiltrators.

I have 2 builds on male and female. Female with damage reduction, weight, and shotguns. Male for all damage and mantis.

Both have enough space for a predator.

Modifié par Indenter, 28 mars 2012 - 08:44 .

[dyeowart]

Thiak wrote...

the soldier is quite fun on silver, adrenaline with a decent ar (rev, phaeston) although i don't think it works on gold because you're out of cover for too long

That and these guns do like 5 damage a shot to anything with armor, compared to ~400-1.2k for semiauto/single shot weapons.

[Notorious McG]

Thiak wrote...

the soldier is quite fun on silver, adrenaline with a decent ar (rev, phaeston) although i don't think it works on gold because you're out of cover for too long

I rate the Revenant, with the Stability bonus on a Turian Soldier it can be pretty lethal - and it does serious work against the bigger targets. But let's not ever class the Phaeston as 'decent', please. 

[GottvonHoff]

Why is it that there's always a thread saying one class is superior than others? You can't generalize. Each class is great in their own way; ultimately it depends on the one playing.

I'm pretty sure there are people in here who are pretty damn effective as Human Soldiers, others who make excellent Human Infiltrators, so on.

[aimlessgun]

GottvonHoff wrote...

Why is it that there's always a thread saying one class is superior than others? You can't generalize. Each class is great in their own way; ultimately it depends on the one playing.

Each class should be great in their own way. That's the point of this thread. The human soldier cannot be great in their own way, as  currently designed. 

[Notorious McG]

GottvonHoff wrote...

Why is it that there's always a thread saying one class is superior than others? You can't generalize. Each class is great in their own way; ultimately it depends on the one playing.

I'm pretty sure there are people in here who are pretty damn effective as Human Soldiers, others who make excellent Human Infiltrators, so on.

The problem is, you can generalize. Soldiers are the weakest class, by a real distance. I think that would be substantiated if you were to analyze the amount of people on these forums who actually run a Soldier class on any games beyond Bronze. Sure, there would be the odd extrovert who uses the class just to be different/awkward, and I'm sure a couple of people could be deluded enough to believe it's actually a "good" class in comparison to the others. But it isn't. In any way, shape or form.

I could play Soldier, and maybe if I'm lucky I'd sneak through to the end of a Silver mission - but I stand a MUCH better chance of doing so with ANY of the other classes; simply because Soldier is the weakest. I don't think there's any argument that of all the classes, the 3 "best" (e.g. most damaging powers/weapon bonuses) are Adept, Infiltrator, and Vanguard. Sentinels and Engineers have their moments, but Soldiers are a country mile behind even those 2 (let alone the 'top' 3).

[Steven83]

GottvonHoff wrote...

Why is it that there's always a thread saying one class is superior than others? You can't generalize. Each class is great in their own way; ultimately it depends on the one playing.

I'm pretty sure there are people in here who are pretty damn effective as Human Soldiers, others who make excellent Human Infiltrators, so on.

What? I'm sorry, I don't quite get what you mean.
Please clarify which role does the Human Soldier fulfill that it does better than Human Infiltrator?

Keep in mind that I specifically compare HUMAN Soldier against HUMAN Infiltrator in this case because Salarians are in the class of their own.

Yes, I am calling you out. Because I like the Soldier class concept, but found it lacking. You disagree with me, saying Soldiers are GOOD at something, better at certain roles than Infiltrators even. What is it? Don't tell me 'Each class is great in their own way.' Give me examples and specifics. This is not the case with Human Soldier vs Infiltrator.

If you give Human Soldier and Human Infiltrator identical weapons, the latter would still outperform it by a huge margin in any difficulty. This is fact. At its current state, the Human Soldier doesn't have a good selling point compared to the Infiltrator.

[Thiak]

Notorious McG wrote...

Thiak wrote...

the soldier is quite fun on silver, adrenaline with a decent ar (rev, phaeston) although i don't think it works on gold because you're out of cover for too long

I rate the Revenant, with the Stability bonus on a Turian Soldier it can be pretty lethal - and it does serious work against the bigger targets. But let's not ever class the Phaeston as 'decent', please. 

actually, i prefer the phaeston to the rev, so for me it's more than decent (i have both on X)
on a turian soldier shooting out of cover i hit with 9 out of 10 bullets where with the rev i hit maybe 4 or 5 out of 10 which puts the phaeston above the rev
the phaeston is way more accurate and has less recoil and spread than the rev, try it out with marksman and the phaestons crosshair is a cross in the middle of your screen even while shooting where with the rev still spreads like a spray can
close range yes the rev is better but not mid and long range where i still hit the targets quite easily

Modifié par Thiak, 28 mars 2012 - 08:52 .

[SeijiTataki]

I used to play Soldiers as heavy weapons platforms; just load them up with weapons, and only ever bother using Adrenaline Rush as your primary, and using it mainly to cycle new rounds into whatever clip you are using. I would ignore concussive shot, and just do whatever else I felt like as I was leveling. This also worked for Turians, making them into stability machines and just throwing on whatever the weapon I felt like I needed that could do with the stability bonus.

Recently, I've tried a caster-style soldier with some better results. You basically just max out concussive shot for damage (damage, recharge, shredder. Or if you are going to be playing with someone you know has cryo/using cryo rounds, you can do damage, shatter, shredder), and running a light weight-ish fast-cycling semi-automatic weapon. I'm using the Raptor, because I have it at Level 10, but the Mattock would perform better if it has a higher level.

You basically approach it by advancing while rapidly firing at something, and using concussive shot to level out other enemies nearby, to reduce incoming fire (Since it will either floor them, or cause them to roll out of the way), or using it as supplementary damage on heavier enemies (especially cerb or reaper with shredder), or for flooring things in cover. With the right training and a moderately light weight weapon, you can usually spam conc on basic enemies around corners or behind cover and kill them before they can get back up.

Since neither weapon nor power does exceptionally well on armor (although rapid-fire raptor does acceptably against non-boss armored targets), you spec the Frag grenade for damage. (Damage, grenades (or bleed, if you want the DoT on cerb/reaper - personally I don't, because I use the extra grenades to spam on armored targets), Armor Piercing. (I don't bother with shield overload, here, because there are much better options other people have to strip shields off bosses).)

Playing as a mobile rapid-suppression caster has made soldiers much more versatile in my play experience, and generally makes me enjoy them more.

[GottvonHoff]

Steven83 wrote...

GottvonHoff wrote...

Why is it that there's always a thread saying one class is superior than others? You can't generalize. Each class is great in their own way; ultimately it depends on the one playing.

I'm pretty sure there are people in here who are pretty damn effective as Human Soldiers, others who make excellent Human Infiltrators, so on.

What? I'm sorry, I don't quite get what you mean.
Please clarify which role does the Human Soldier fulfill that it does better than Human Infiltrator?

Keep in mind that I specifically compare HUMAN Soldier against HUMAN Infiltrator in this case because Salarians are in the class of their own.

Yes, I am calling you out. Because I like the Soldier class concept, but found it lacking. You disagree with me, saying Soldiers are GOOD at something, better at certain roles than Infiltrators even. What is it? Don't tell me 'Each class is great in their own way.' Give me examples and specifics. This is not the case with Human Soldier vs Infiltrator.

If you give Human Soldier and Human Infiltrator identical weapons, the latter would still outperform it by a huge margin in any difficulty. This is fact. At its current state, the Human Soldier doesn't have a good selling point compared to the Infiltrator.

Woah, woah. Slow down there. I didn't mean to rile you up.

The way I saw the thread, I thought that it was about to go down the same lane as those who say that people playing a particular class are outright labelled as 'worthless'. True that HS needs more buffs/better skills and such, but if people still think that the class sucks, then why is the Human Soldier class still there?

If I offended, then this one would like to apologize. Chill man, let's keep things civil okay? 

No need to "call me out"...

[peddroelm]

dyeowart wrote...
I rather pop out of stealth with a single shot widow, unleashing a cryo blast for armor weakening 

Cryo blast armor weakening (-25%) adds 50 - (50 * (1 - 0.25)) = extra 12.5 damage per shot when shooting  armor ...Add this to the couple thousand a Widow does when fired by an infiltrator from cloak ....

When upgraded to rank 6 the armor weakening effect of cryo blast can become (-50%)  ... Now you get extra 25 damage per shot ... This effect seems to work for your squadmates too for the chill duration so it might actually be significant if you have squadmates who shoot the same target with SMGs or Assault rifles (low damage per shot ..) 

Some tests done in SP with a infiltrator using Widow V , 2.85 damage multiplier (you probably cannot get the damage multiplier so high in MP)

Calculated: (867 * (1 + (0.0277841 * 4)) * (1 + 0.15 + 0.4) * (1 + 0.05 + 0.35 + 0.4 + 0.15 + 0.9)) - (50 * (1 - 0.25)) = 4218.12186 (with cryo amm0 lvl 1)   

Measured: 13000 - 8769.3769 = 4230.6231
Calculated: (867 * (1 + (0.0277841 * 4)) * (1 + 0.15 + 0.4) * (1 + 0.05 + 0.35 + 0.4 + 0.15 + 0.9)) - (50 * (1 - 0.50)) = 4230.62186 (with cryo ammo lvl 6)

Final cryo ammo evolution (Damage Combo) adds a whooping extra 12.5 !!! damage per shot vs armored targets )))  

867 * (1 + (0.0277841 * 4)) = 963.355259 is Widow V base damage
867 * (1 + (0.0277841 * 4)) * (1 + 0.15 + 0.4) = 1493.20065 (in SP infiltrators have 2 skills that improve base weapon damage (only for sniper rifles) - the 40% bonus works noly for cloaked shots)...

(1 + 0.05 + 0.35 + 0.4 + 0.15 + 0.9) =2.85 is the sum of damage multipliers (weapon add-ons, cloak, equipment, ...)

[GottvonHoff]

SeijiTataki wrote...

Playing as a mobile rapid-suppression caster has made soldiers much more versatile in my play experience, and generally makes me enjoy them more.

Same with me. 

[RiflemanUK]

I use it as an Adrenaline Rush instant reload sniper, you get more damage with 2 shots with 1 being +65% than with cloak. You're dependant on cover but It's very usable on Silver.

Most of all though it's fun, firing off two shots with a Mantis or Widow in the same second feels great.

Modifié par RiflemanUK, 28 mars 2012 - 09:20 .

[Steven83]

You still haven't provided examples of "Each class is great in their own way"
I'm not asking for all classes. Just Human Soldiers alone. It's a big issue with the class at higher difficulty.
When I see people bring a Human Soldier, I just wonder why they wouldn't bring a Human Infiltrator to a silver game if they want to shoot things.

And most times, I was right, they couldn't perform. They had to be revived. Or stay under cover for too long to stay alive. I even gave it a spin myself, loaded a Battlefield 3 soldier (A MUCH Better Human Soldier template IMO) unloading some adrenaline fire while using Carnage as needed on Silver.

I had difficulty staying alive. And slowed down the team. Heck, even my buddies commented, why did I go Soldier? It did not work. I can't make it work. The game mechanics on Silver / Gold works against the Soldier. Even a Human Sentinel can contribute better with constant biotic bombardment from cover.

[RiflemanUK]

Sounds more like blaming a class because you can't use it well.

[Kavadas]

I play a human soldier on silver difficulty a ton and do very well (almost always top score). The class only falls behind on gold runs.

Anyways, you can always just mod your Coalesced.bin to add more shields and weapon damage to the class.

[RVallant]

^You don't. Soldier for facerolling bronze is about all I use them for personally. >.>