74 réponses à ce sujet

[jumpingkaede]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

I disagree: see it from Wrex's perspective! The Krogan are a doomed people (at least, they all believe that) already because of the Genophage. So what is the point in fighting to save their race, let alone the two races that doomed them to extinction if they're all just going to die out anyway? It is the curing of the genophage that gives the Krogan enough hope for the future to actually want to fight for it. The fact that the Turians were involved in helping cure it restores just enough good will in them to help hold Palaven. The Turians and Krogans were certainly the most sensible.

Difference between guaranteed death due to the Reapers or "possibly" dying out in the future.  Especially with Wrex. 

Wrex had begun instituting policies on Tuchanka that, while wouldn't lead to expansion like in the past, seemed like it had at least stablized the Krogan population.  Which was ALWAYS the case with the Genopage... whether the Krogans realized it or not.

Speaking to the Krogans: "genophage = extinction omgz!"

Speaking to Mordin: "modified genopage = exactly the right balance".

Your choice on who to believe.  I'm going with Mordin on this one.  Wrex, with his gift of being the one Krogan with foresight, probably should've picked up on that.  Instead of being all, "NO!  Cure genophage NOW or no deal!"

Very fortunate that the genopage could be cured for every Krogan on Tuchanka in a day. 

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

Edit: The Quarians are certainly the ones making the dumbest decisions. I wanted to hit all the of the Quarian leaders. Got to hit one of them. It felt good.

The Quarians my god.  If it wasn't for Tali I'd have let them all die.  Bioware certainly went out of their way in ME3 to paint them as idiots.  You don't even get to see ANY of the heroic Quarians like Kal'Reegar.  If ME3 was my first impression of the Quarians letting them die in favor of Legion would've been a no-brainer.

[Sc2mashimaro]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

The Salarians and Asari were incredibly selfish, possibly because they were not being attacked. Where the Krogan are always ready to fight and the Turians are already fighting the Reapers, the Salarians and Asari have barely had to deal with them - so THEY continue to play politics instead of join the fight.

yeah like I said above I think they really missed the boat in writing the Salarians, Asari, and also Quarians, in this game. They just came off as completely unreasonable and just used as bland obstacles in Shepard's way.

I actually don't think they "missed" with it. The Quarians are not involved with the rest of the galaxy, they are barely interested in the Reaper threat. Being so cut off, they become a bit self-absorbed and their actions seem reasonable from THEIR perspective. I still wanted to hit them for being dumb though - because it is really dumb from Shepard's perspective.

Same thing with the Asari and Salarians - they haven't been hit hard by the Reapers, so unlike the Turians who understand the kind of threat Shepard is talking about, they continue to believe they can play politics as usual. This is why they end up obstructing Shepard's attempts to rally the galaxy, because they don't understand why they should care any more than they did yesterday when they were disregarding claims of "Reapers". To me, it makes perfect sense in the story.

[scq]

I'd say the most heoric were the Elcor. You all you had to do was fly to their planet and scan it. None of that quid pro quo crap with scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

[Sc2mashimaro]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Difference between guaranteed death due to the Reapers or "possibly" dying out in the future.  Especially with Wrex. 

Wrex had begun instituting policies on Tuchanka that, while wouldn't lead to expansion like in the past, seemed like it had at least stablized the Krogan population.  Which was ALWAYS the case with the Genopage... whether the Krogans realized it or not.

In some ways, yes, but Wrex was not directly in contact with Mordin (to my understanding) - Mordin was simply slipping Wrex information in the hopes that he would use it to cure the Genophage, not explaining it to him. The Krogan in general also have little reason to stay unified, even with Wrex leading them, if they have no hope. That's the whole point, whether from a logical standpoint they should feel the way they do or not, they have no hope for the future which gives them little reason to fight for it.

The Quarians my god.  If it wasn't for Tali I'd have let them all die.  Bioware certainly went out of their way in ME3 to paint them as idiots.  You don't even get to see ANY of the heroic Quarians like Kal'Reegar.  If ME3 was my first impression of the Quarians letting them die in favor of Legion would've been a no-brainer.

This. The Quarians should thank whatever gods or ancestors they pray to for Tali, because I would have sided so hard with the Geth if not for her.

[ahandsomeshark]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

The Salarians and Asari were incredibly selfish, possibly because they were not being attacked. Where the Krogan are always ready to fight and the Turians are already fighting the Reapers, the Salarians and Asari have barely had to deal with them - so THEY continue to play politics instead of join the fight.

yeah like I said above I think they really missed the boat in writing the Salarians, Asari, and also Quarians, in this game. They just came off as completely unreasonable and just used as bland obstacles in Shepard's way.

I actually don't think they "missed" with it. The Quarians are not involved with the rest of the galaxy, they are barely interested in the Reaper threat. Being so cut off, they become a bit self-absorbed and their actions seem reasonable from THEIR perspective. I still wanted to hit them for being dumb though - because it is really dumb from Shepard's perspective.

Same thing with the Asari and Salarians - they haven't been hit hard by the Reapers, so unlike the Turians who understand the kind of threat Shepard is talking about, they continue to believe they can play politics as usual. This is why they end up obstructing Shepard's attempts to rally the galaxy, because they don't understand why they should care any more than they did yesterday when they were disregarding claims of "Reapers". To me, it makes perfect sense in the story.

Yeah but considering how intelligent the Salarians are you would think that once Pavalen, and the biggest fleet in the galaxy, was getting decimated they would have changed their tune quickly. Especially considering how much time they put into researching which species to uplift next in order to preserve their society you would think they would be one of the first species to change their minds once it was made apparent what the reapers were capable of. With the Asari I understand because 1. they're so spread out and have a fairly unorganized government in comparison and 2. they're generally more diplomatic, with the Salarians it just seems contrary to how they've been written. 

[ahandsomeshark]

With the Quarians I say they missed the boat not so much because of their reaction to the reapers but more because it paints them completely unsympathetic in every way in terms of their war with the geth. Given how much of ME and bioware games in general have been about trying to paint in shades of grey it seemed really weird to me that there was virtually nothing sympathetic about the Quarians in ME3. They just came off as cartoon villains.

[Raven4030-2]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

I disagree: see it from Wrex's perspective! The Krogan are a doomed people (at least, they all believe that) already because of the Genophage. So what is the point in fighting to save their race, let alone the two races that doomed them to extinction if they're all just going to die out anyway? It is the curing of the genophage that gives the Krogan enough hope for the future to actually want to fight for it. The fact that the Turians were involved in helping cure it restores just enough good will in them to help hold Palaven. The Turians and Krogans were certainly the most sensible.

Difference between guaranteed death due to the Reapers or "possibly" dying out in the future.  Especially with Wrex. 

Wrex had begun instituting policies on Tuchanka that, while wouldn't lead to expansion like in the past, seemed like it had at least stablized the Krogan population.  Which was ALWAYS the case with the Genopage... whether the Krogans realized it or not.

Speaking to the Krogans: "genophage = extinction omgz!"

Speaking to Mordin: "modified genopage = exactly the right balance".

Your choice on who to believe.  I'm going with Mordin on this one.  Wrex, with his gift of being the one Krogan with foresight, probably should've picked up on that.  Instead of being all, "NO!  Cure genophage NOW or no deal!"

Very fortunate that the genopage could be cured for every Krogan on Tuchanka in a day. 

To be fair, Wrex's demand was based on knowing that a cure was possible. And again, you have to look at it from their perspective.

Mordin's analysis fit with the character really: cold and calculating. From a pure numbers perspective, Mordin was dead-on, but then it's not all about the numbers, you have to look at how the genophage works. It doesn't function by adjusting fertility rates but offspring viability. To put it another way: for every 1 living, breathing Krogan post genophage, there are 999 stillborn Krogan fetuses sitting in a mass grave somewhere.

Mordin's analysis only works if we assume the Krogan don't care about their young, and I got the distinct impression from talking with Eve that a stillborn child impacts a krogan female just as strongly as it would a human female. And if you still aren't convinced the genophage was a downright monstrous warcrime, then find somebody in real life who has had a stillborn child and ask them if it would be worth going through that even 10 times to produce one child.

When I look at it that way, it puts the Krogan grudge against Turians and Salarians in a whole other perspective.

[uzivatel]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Difference between guaranteed death due to the Reapers or "possibly" dying out in the future.  Especially with Wrex. 

Wrex had begun instituting policies on Tuchanka that, while wouldn't lead to expansion like in the past, seemed like it had at least stablized the Krogan population.  Which was ALWAYS the case with the Genopage... whether the Krogans realized it or not.

Speaking to the Krogans: "genophage = extinction omgz!"

Speaking to Mordin: "modified genopage = exactly the right balance".

Your choice on who to believe.  I'm going with Mordin on this one.  Wrex, with his gift of being the one Krogan with foresight, probably should've picked up on that.  Instead of being all, "NO!  Cure genophage NOW or no deal!"

Well, the modified genophage was designed to keep Krogan numbers low during peace times (there are much fewer Krogans compared to the other main races), but thats simply not the case here - Krogans are expected to be used as cannon fodder. The ground units fighting Reapers suffer extremely high casualties as mentioned by the radio communication on Earth and seeing the war against Reapers may last for decades - look how long it took them to destroy all Protheans - there is no way the Krogans could survive that long without being able to replenish their numbers.

[justafan]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

With the Quarians I say they missed the boat not so much because of their reaction to the reapers but more because it paints them completely unsympathetic in every way in terms of their war with the geth. Given how much of ME and bioware games in general have been about trying to paint in shades of grey it seemed really weird to me that there was virtually nothing sympathetic about the Quarians in ME3. They just came off as cartoon villains.

This.

If you hadn't played Tali's loyalty mission in ME2, you would never get a sense for the grey area in the Rannoch missions.  What I liked about Legion in the second is that it showed how the evil geth from ME1 had many redeeming qualities, and how many were reasonable.  Likewise Tali's loyalty mission showed that many Quarians didn't want war, but also saw themseles in a similar light as the Krogan, doomed to a slow extinction unless they took back their homeworld.

In ME3, the geth become space hippies/saints, and I swear under that mask Gerrel grew a twirly mustache.  I mean, Shepard barely brings up the fact the geth sided with the reapers, and Gerrel (Hence the face of the Quarians new players would have) becomes a villain when he comes closer to killing you on that dreadnaught than the Geth ever did.

As for the Turians,  they pulled their stuff together.  The "councilor" helps you, Victus is awesome, and you see their fleet actively engaging Reapers and doing damage.  It was satisfying to finally find out why they were considered such good warriors after the debacle with Sovereign.  I just wish we had got a glimpse of Palaven, but otherwise the Turian arc was great.

[SovereignWillReturn]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I always thought they were heroic. We just barely saw any of them in Mass Effect 2 so some people seem to have forgotten that. They may be harsh, but they only take actions they believe are necessary to protect and defend. They have an enormous sense of personal honor and loyalty.

Saren was probably the most evil turian we know of and even that turned out to be largely the influence of Sovereign. He will commit suicide if you help him see the truth rather than fight you. That I think proves that even the worst turian still has some measure of honor.

He thinks that what he's doing is saving the Galaxy, and when he sees he is wrong,  he owns up to mistake, and does his part to help save the Citadel, by shooting himself.

Saren was the greatest villian ever, and I give him a ton of respect.

[Epic777]

Raven4030-2 wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

I disagree: see it from Wrex's perspective! The Krogan are a doomed people (at least, they all believe that) already because of the Genophage. So what is the point in fighting to save their race, let alone the two races that doomed them to extinction if they're all just going to die out anyway? It is the curing of the genophage that gives the Krogan enough hope for the future to actually want to fight for it. The fact that the Turians were involved in helping cure it restores just enough good will in them to help hold Palaven. The Turians and Krogans were certainly the most sensible.

Difference between guaranteed death due to the Reapers or "possibly" dying out in the future.  Especially with Wrex. 

Wrex had begun instituting policies on Tuchanka that, while wouldn't lead to expansion like in the past, seemed like it had at least stablized the Krogan population.  Which was ALWAYS the case with the Genopage... whether the Krogans realized it or not.

Speaking to the Krogans: "genophage = extinction omgz!"

Speaking to Mordin: "modified genopage = exactly the right balance".

Your choice on who to believe.  I'm going with Mordin on this one.  Wrex, with his gift of being the one Krogan with foresight, probably should've picked up on that.  Instead of being all, "NO!  Cure genophage NOW or no deal!"

Very fortunate that the genopage could be cured for every Krogan on Tuchanka in a day. 

To be fair, Wrex's demand was based on knowing that a cure was possible. And again, you have to look at it from their perspective.

Mordin's analysis fit with the character really: cold and calculating. From a pure numbers perspective, Mordin was dead-on, but then it's not all about the numbers, you have to look at how the genophage works. It doesn't function by adjusting fertility rates but offspring viability. To put it another way: for every 1 living, breathing Krogan post genophage, there are 999 stillborn Krogan fetuses sitting in a mass grave somewhere.

Mordin's analysis only works if we assume the Krogan don't care about their young, and I got the distinct impression from talking with Eve that a stillborn child impacts a krogan female just as strongly as it would a human female. And if you still aren't convinced the genophage was a downright monstrous warcrime, then find somebody in real life who has had a stillborn child and ask them if it would be worth going through that even 10 times to produce one child.

When I look at it that way, it puts the Krogan grudge against Turians and Salarians in a whole other perspective.

According to Eve some infertile female krogan wandered into the in the desert hoping a maw would end their torment.

[jumpingkaede]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I always thought they were heroic. We just barely saw any of them in Mass Effect 2 so some people seem to have forgotten that. They may be harsh, but they only take actions they believe are necessary to protect and defend. They have an enormous sense of personal honor and loyalty.

Saren was probably the most evil turian we know of and even that turned out to be largely the influence of Sovereign. He will commit suicide if you help him see the truth rather than fight you. That I think proves that even the worst turian still has some measure of honor.

He thinks that what he's doing is saving the Galaxy, and when he sees he is wrong,  he owns up to mistake, and does his part to help save the Citadel, by shooting himself.

Saren was the greatest villian ever, and I give him a ton of respect.

Saren is sort of like Loghain.  Although Logain takes the book for me.  When I first played I couldn't wait to kill him; then when I read his background and understood his thought process I felt bad about killing him.

Saren's reasoning is sound.  And, in retrospect for the gamer, supported entirely by the ME3 ending.  The Reapers can't be beaten, so join them.  Save some lives at the cost of others.  

[TheOptimist]

Turians are probably my favorite ME race. They're stubborn and they don't take to theories well, but show them a concrete problem and they will buckle right down to solving it, instead of hiding or playing politics.

[alberta]

THIS was the correct start for the Reaper/Galaxy war - NOT earth. Think about it - the Geth/Quarian world was relatively safe, the Krogan world was relatively safe, the Salarian world was relatively safe and the Turians with the Krogan help were more than holding their own. Therefore - THIS was the correct fight to start the war. THat would have given the combined fleets a really good start, refine their striking methods of fighting as a single cohesive unit, the correct methods to use against the Reapers, assigns the numbers of ships and land forces to strike at what Reaper the same time, etc., etc., - then from there system by system clear the Reapers who are in much smaller numbers then there are on earth, In other words bleed the Reapers dry before striking at earth - and last chance - blow the earth relay wiping out everything including all the Reapers there.

[RunicDragons]

...and that's why the Turians is my favorite race.

[Esoretal]

Well, each culture has a good side and an ugly side. We saw more of the ugly side for some of them.

The salarians as a whole got shafted this time because of their history and that ****ing dalatrass. As Mordin and Kirrahe proved, not every salarian subscribes to the kind of thinking that resulted in the genophage.

The quarians seemed like they were just plain crazy, but after 300 years of the treatment they got, a lot of them were likely desperate. Yeah, they made horrible choices, but they're not horrible people. We've got Tali and Zal'Koris to show for that.

And yes, the asari are pretty and mostly peaceful and they have the most advanced technology, but it's pretty clear they were not cut out for war, and unfortunately they paid for that. They were also hoarding Prothean knowledge to give themselves an advantage, which is apparently very illegal.

We saw mostly the good side of the turians, but I'm sure there's something there we don't know about. EDIT: that bomb on Tuchanka, for example.

It's this multifaceted aspect of every culture (and every person) that is one of the things I love most about the ME universe.

Modifié par Esoretal, 28 mars 2012 - 06:04 .

[CrazyRah]

Since the Turians are pretty much Romans in space they naturally kicked ass!
But yeah i really do like the Turians in ME3

[Confused-Shepard]

I wanted to have a long discussion with Wrex regarding birth control after the whole Genophage thing was dealt with. Yes I understand that having a stillborn would mentally scar you but that doesn't mean you breed like rabbits once that problem is solved. Basically the Krogan have to practice some degree of abstinence or have a China style 1 child rule.

Otherwise we could have .... trouble. Even their own resources would get choked with over-population. Maybe they could design a pill that reduces the number of children born as opposed to the body horror that was the Genophage.

[eventhewaves]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

He thinks that what he's doing is saving the Galaxy, and when he sees he is wrong,  he owns up to mistake, and does his part to help save the Citadel, by shooting himself.

For me, Saren shooting himself -- and actually thanking Shepard for the opportunity to do so -- is actually one of the series' most moving moments.  And I also believe that Saren and Shepard are great opposites, in the sense that you learn a lot about who Saren could have been -- might once have been -- if Sovereign hadn't completely hacked his mind, and you learn a lot about what Shepard might become if Spectre authority goes right to his/her head, too.

(After all, Samara is around to make Nihlus sound a lot more unpleasant in the second game that he initially appeared.  Seems like "Spectre" is one of those jobs which goes right to people's heads, like being a Lynch in The A-Team.)

Best antagonist in the series, really, and by a pretty wide margin.

Modifié par eventhewaves, 28 mars 2012 - 07:01 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Innocent Erendira wrote...

Would have been nice to see some turian ladies being heroic as well

Just sayin'

Seriously! Turians are supposed to be the most gender-role neutral species and yet that's the one species they refused to show genders for. What the heck, BioWare?

[Zeppex]

LOL, I thought one of the Turians they showed in the Cutscene when the fleet arrives was a female. Well he or she looked real feminine to me, but maybe I'm just reaching.

[irishScott3]

Turian society is entirely military, and every single one of them is combat trained from birth. If they didn't have their **** together I'd be seriously worried.

Rome + Sparta = Turians.

[Zeppex]

Weren't the Turians modeled after Roman society. Centurion = Turian.

[scq]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Innocent Erendira wrote...

Would have been nice to see some turian ladies being heroic as well

Just sayin'

Seriously! Turians are supposed to be the most gender-role neutral species and yet that's the one species they refused to show genders for. What the heck, BioWare?

Garrus was a woman. Turians are so neutral, hey look and sound the same too.

[Bigdoser]

The Angry One wrote...

Actually Legion says when he returned to the consensus, all Geth agreed to prepare for war against the Reapers, so this is a double black mark on the Quarians.

Oh yeah when legion told me that I was not pleased with the Quarians my renegade shep was not all that impressed with the Quarians as well when legion shared that information.