229 réponses à ce sujet

[MattFini]

Laurcus wrote...

The problem is that ME3 was meant to be the final part of a space opera. It's not about understanding Shepard's character. No amount of highschool level philosophy can make the plot holes and cliches go away.

It's just bad writing, period.

This is all that needs to be said about the ending as it stands.

The conclusion of ME3 betrays the spirit and tone of the two previous games, and 95% of this one.  It's bad storytelling through and through.   

[Myrmedus]

Luzarius wrote...

FyreSyder wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No.

Proof is absolute.

This is the type of player who didn't understand the ME3 ending. I can no longer respond to this type of response. But the proof is absolute.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Indeed, proof is absolute - too bad you have none.

In fact, I'd argue your OP is actually an argument as to why the ending is bad. All the way through the game Shepard manages to survive the odds. In fact, the first few words in the game label him as a "survivor". Yet, the ending is a direct violation of the character's nature and established themes - not so much because he doesn't survive it all, I'm not saying he needed to be immortal for literary consistency, but because he doesn't even go out defiant or fighting.

An appropriate analogy would be a hardened warrior going out with a whimper. The starchild's logic is not circular, rather it's redundant, and there is no way my Shepard would've adhered to it. Why? Because -I- didn't adhere to it, and Shepard was meant to be -my- character as established by every minute of gameplay and plot development up until that point. Yet, at the last hurdle, all of that is stripped away.

This is not about the character being a Mary Sue or not but something much deeper within the plot's construction.

On the topic of Shepard being a Mary Sue, I would possibly agree though since the character's actions are your own, you have a degree of control over how infallible he is. However, I certainly agree in terms of his success in combat which was part of the reason his failure on Thessia was such a good touch and such a shock - even the character himself is shocked: "Shepard....lost?!"

However, you seem to be trying to intentionally cross that argument over with the debate about the endings, possibly because the former has merit while the latter does not.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 28 mars 2012 - 12:01 .

[Luzarius]

Myrmedus wrote...

Luzarius wrote...

FyreSyder wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No.

Proof is absolute.

This is the type of player who didn't understand the ME3 ending. I can no longer respond to this type of response. But the proof is absolute.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Indeed, proof is absolute - too bad you have none.

In fact, I'd argue your OP is actually an argument as to why the ending is bad. All the way through the game Shepard manages to survive the odds. In fact, the first few words in the game label him as a "survivor". Yet, the ending is a direct violation of the character's nature and established themes - not so much because he doesn't survive it all but because he doesn't even go out defiant or fighting.

An appropriate analogy would be a hardened warrior going out with a whimper. The starchild's logic is not circular, rather it's redundant, and there is no way my Shepard would've adhered to it. Why? Because -I- didn't adhere to it, and Shepard was meant to be -my- character as established by every minute of gameplay and plot development up until that point. Yet, at the last hurdle, all of that is stripped away.

I call bull****.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think Shepard and a united galaxy could defeat the reapers without the crucible? You're telling me that your way is better than all the previous extinct civilizations who died trying to give you this technology called the "crucible".

The bioware ending is a lesson in "swallowing your pride".  Maybe Bioware messed up thinking that "young" people would be mature enough to understand the ending.

It takes a real man to know his limits. All I see on this forum is a bunch of 13 year old kids who didn't understand the ending because of their blind egotistical ignorance.

EGO & Pride will blind you. It will blind you from understanding the beauty of the ME3 ending. Bioware went somewhere brilliant yet people don't understand. It drives me insane. 

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Modifié par Luzarius, 28 mars 2012 - 12:04 .

[kylemesa]

How come everyone who loves the end sounds like a cult fanatic...

[spacefiddle]

Luzarius wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No.

This person didn't even read what I said. He/she must of skipped every dialogue option in ME.

My goodness, you've cracked our secret.  Yes.  Everyone who didn't like the ending has skipped every dialogue choice for the last 3 games.

You are a genius.  You have solved the Retake movement, defined the Only One True Way to Play a Game, set guidelines for good taste, redefined what a good story should be structured like, given a free pass to the Deus ex Machina in literature everywhere, given everyone a free puppy, and promoted world peace.

Now stop trolling.

EGO & Pride will blind you.

Both of which can be found in abundance in your rants.

Modifié par spacefiddle, 28 mars 2012 - 12:05 .

[Tleining]

Luzarius wrote...

Proof is absolute.

This is the type of player who didn't understand the ME3 ending. I can no longer respond to this type of response. But the proof is absolute.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

you do realize that you are not the First to come up with this kind of challenge, right? These challenges were issued after ME1 came out and everyone was busy with "Reach Level 60 on first playthrough", "Play through the game on Insanity (including DLC) and reach highest Score on the Station" challenges.

Even with that, the Ending won't change. You claim to have proof, but your proof is your Opinion. Fail!!

[kylemesa]

Luzarius wrote...

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think Shepard and a united galaxy could defeat the reapers without the crucible? You're telling me that your way is better than all the previous extinct civilizations who died trying to give you this technology called the "crucible".

Actually yes. At 5,000-ish war assets, the game tells you it's an even fight with the reapers. I had 8,000-ish with a readiness of 100%. My army was significantly stronger than the reapers. The fact that the little starchild even proposed a new idea proves they aren't infallible.

[scrapmetals]

Yeah, I beat all three games with the no death rule every single time I play.

And I still don't get the ending.

What now? Got any more challenges that'll make it make sense?

[Asuka Bianchini]

Luzarius wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Luzarius wrote...

FyreSyder wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No.

Proof is absolute.

This is the type of player who didn't understand the ME3 ending. I can no longer respond to this type of response. But the proof is absolute.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Indeed, proof is absolute - too bad you have none.

In fact, I'd argue your OP is actually an argument as to why the ending is bad. All the way through the game Shepard manages to survive the odds. In fact, the first few words in the game label him as a "survivor". Yet, the ending is a direct violation of the character's nature and established themes - not so much because he doesn't survive it all but because he doesn't even go out defiant or fighting.

An appropriate analogy would be a hardened warrior going out with a whimper. The starchild's logic is not circular, rather it's redundant, and there is no way my Shepard would've adhered to it. Why? Because -I- didn't adhere to it, and Shepard was meant to be -my- character as established by every minute of gameplay and plot development up until that point. Yet, at the last hurdle, all of that is stripped away.

I call bull****.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think Shepard and a united galaxy could defeat the reapers without the crucible? You're telling me that your way is better than all the previous extinct civilizations who died trying to give you this technology called the "crucible".

The bioware ending is a lesson in "swallowing your pride".  Maybe Bioware messed up thinking that "young" people would be mature enough to understand the ending.

It takes a real man to know his limits. All I see on this forum is a bunch of 13 year old kids who didn't understand the ending because of their blind egotistical ignorance.

EGO & Pride will blind you. It will blind you from understanding the beauty of the ME3 ending. Bioware went somewhere brilliant yet people don't understand. It drives me insane. 

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Srsly man, you really don't get it, right?
The way you potray your Shepard is different from others, and _I think_ you forget about Shep being HUMAN.

[DJBare]

Luzarius wrote...
Challeng me back! I'm ready. Hit me up with your challenge. *spits on the ground*. (waits for the trolls)

I make this post with much love, please trust brother Luz.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Wait, what?, you wrote the starchild dialogue did'nt you.
Seriously though, if we were to follow your ruleset, then it becomes your game, and there I thought the game was about self determination with the each individual player choosing their own path.

Modifié par DJBare, 28 mars 2012 - 12:11 .

[Xandurpein]

Luzarius wrote...

"All I see on this forum is a bunch of 13 year old kids...", "EGO & Pride will blind you."

Maybe someone should take his own advice?

[spacefiddle]

DJBare wrote...

Luzarius wrote...
Challeng me back! I'm ready. Hit me up with your challenge. *spits on the ground*. (waits for the trolls)

I make this post with much love, please trust brother Luz.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Wait, what?, you wrote the starchild dialogue did'nt you.
Seriously though, if we were to follow your ruleset, then it becomes your game, and there I thought the game was about self determination with the each individual player choosing their own path.

Luz argument is basically that your playstyle is completely invalid, and only by playing the game his way does your opinion have any merit.  From this insane perspective, any attempts at presenting him with logic or reason fail, because it's a closed loop: if you're really playing the game his way, you agree with him, and if your opinion differs with his in any way, then you're not playing the game his way.

[Xrissie]

This seems incredibly tedious and frustrating.

[wright1978]

Luzarius wrote...

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think Shepard and a united galaxy could defeat the reapers without the crucible? You're telling me that your way is better than all the previous extinct civilizations who died trying to give you this technology called the "crucible".

The bioware ending is a lesson in "swallowing your pride".  Maybe Bioware messed up thinking that "young" people would be mature enough to understand the ending.

It takes a real man to know his limits. All I see on this forum is a bunch of 13 year old kids who didn't understand the ending because of their blind egotistical ignorance.

EGO & Pride will blind you. It will blind you from understanding the beauty of the ME3 ending. Bioware went somewhere brilliant yet people don't understand. It drives me insane. 

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

That's pure comedy gold. Insult people by claiming they are 13 year olds. Yeah sorry there have been polls to show those unhappy are all ages. But then i shouldnn't expect anything from you because you like their railroaded plothole ridden drivel ending.

[DJBare]

Man I'm slow today!, this is his attempt to get hits on twitch tv, *face palms*

[Chk-2000]

I don't really follow your argument, OP. 

It's like saying: "You'll enjoy shooting your foot, if you do a marathon run first..."

[Baronesa]

It is very telling how the OP ignored my comment...

Oh, and stop being an insulting little pyjak... "13 years old" If you can't bother yourself to read the criticism, or see the relation between age and dislike of the endings (yes there are posts about that) then simply stop making a fool of yourself.

You clearly seems to have set yourself into "My Shepard is the only Shepard" mentality... and curiously... most people seem to agree that the themes of the game are about overcoming impossible odds, appreciating diversity.

The fact is, the ending justify genocide... the Catalyst (spacebrat) justify the endless cycle of genocide, and then since apparently "it won't work anymore" think about new "solutions" (final solution). It is still operating under the same premises that "justified" the "culling" of organic life. Accepting the "solutions" of the catalyst by necessity makes you accept the logic behind them. THAT is one of the largest problems. That is why many people desire for a way to refuse, to say NO to the idiocy and madness presented by the Catalyst.

And that is what you don't understand...

KustomDeluxe wrote...

This quote from ME2 about sums it up for me:

TIM: I made you Shephard! I brought you back from the dead!
Shephard: And I'm going to do what you brought me back to do. I'll fight and win this war without compromising the soul of our species.
.

[S Atomeha]

Luzarius wrote...

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think Shepard and a united galaxy could defeat the reapers without the crucible? You're telling me that your way is better than all the previous extinct civilizations who died trying to give you this technology called the "crucible".

The bioware ending is a lesson in "swallowing your pride".  Maybe Bioware messed up thinking that "young" people would be mature enough to understand the ending.

It takes a real man to know his limits. All I see on this forum is a bunch of 13 year old kids who didn't understand the ending because of their blind egotistical ignorance.

EGO & Pride will blind you. It will blind you from understanding the beauty of the ME3 ending. Bioware went somewhere brilliant yet people don't understand. It drives me insane. 

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Yes. they just didn't give us the option. look at the "desperate measures" codex.

[Mnementh2230]

Luzarius wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Luzarius wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No.

This person didn't even read what I said. He/she must of skipped every dialogue option in ME.

Do not be like this person.

The angry one will forever be remembered on the internet as someone who doesn't read and comprehend and instead responds to a title. This is the type of player who won't understand the ME3 ending.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Cute. But you use a lot of words to say nothing.
My Shepard would never give up. She would never "trust" an untrustworthy, genocidal maniac.
She would fight to the bitter end no matter what. She would not give up. I understand the ending perfectly.

Sounds like you wanted to rebel against the star child instead of accepting the help of billions of extinct souls lost to the reapers in the past million years.

simply, you failed to understand the crucible.

No, Bioware failed to write an ending that makes sense.  The crucible/star-child is a literal deus ex machina, introduced in the wrong part of the story (according to proper dramatic structure), whose sole purpose is to cover up for the rushed nature of the ending.

Let's just look at it from a slightly different perspective.  You've got Shepard, who has fought for years to protect not just humanity, but the entire galaxy, from the Reaper threat.  Even killing him didn't stop him, he just came back pissed off.  He never gave up, never once even considered trusting these genocidal *things*...  and suddenly, at the end, he simply trusts their self-proclaimed leader?  No - that's bull****.  It's unbelievable in the extreme.  This isn't about "swallowing your pride", it's about how we're not inclined to trust our enemies, who have killed and are in the process of killing, billions or perhaps trillions of people across the galaxy.

Modifié par Mnementh2230, 28 mars 2012 - 12:36 .

[K-J4y]

 I think, there is no such thing as ego and pride, a least when you play the Mass Effect series.

There are people out there, haven't enough time to play lot of hours per day. You know, even if I don't die once in a week because of just playing a couple of hours doesn't mean necessarily you get the best experience out of it.

It's more because of the story telling, people playing the story, the show, the characters whatsoever. If you die, load again, or play another day.
That won't effect my experience. Basically I hadn't this particular feeling of surviving and having faith. It was about where the whole scenario took place.
In a logic fictional universe, with "faster than light" travelsystem called "Mass Effect" almost everything has an explaination, even the unique alien races, we all love.
Eventually many people  complaining, that the endings take this logic and explaination apart. 

Your theory makes maybe sense, if you got time to play the story straight to the end. Anyway though, it seems like the end doesn't fit into the rest of the game.

Well, I have to admitt, I liked the endings, in my eyes these was some kind of final. Shepard dies, it's over... wow My beloved series is over. What a shame. But it was werth to play by any means and  I will continue to play, new roles, new LI's, no matter what. This is my way to pay tribute to the trilogy.

This being said, maybe Mr. Hudson is right when he sais, when you take all of your game experience into the end, this will become your epic conclusion.
We'll see.

Modifié par K-J4y, 28 mars 2012 - 12:39 .

[Luzarius]

Mnementh2230 wrote...

Luzarius wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Luzarius wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No.

This person didn't even read what I said. He/she must of skipped every dialogue option in ME.

Do not be like this person.

The angry one will forever be remembered on the internet as someone who doesn't read and comprehend and instead responds to a title. This is the type of player who won't understand the ME3 ending.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Cute. But you use a lot of words to say nothing.
My Shepard would never give up. She would never "trust" an untrustworthy, genocidal maniac.
She would fight to the bitter end no matter what. She would not give up. I understand the ending perfectly.

Sounds like you wanted to rebel against the star child instead of accepting the help of billions of extinct souls lost to the reapers in the past million years.

simply, you failed to understand the crucible.

No, Bioware failed to write an ending that makes sense.  The crucible/star-child is a literal deus ex machina, introduced in the wrong part of the story (according to proper dramatic structure), whose sole purpose is to cover up for the rushed nature of the ending.

Let's just look at it from a slightly different perspective.  You've got Shepard, who has fought for years to protect not just humanity, but the entire galaxy, from the Reaper threat.  Even killing him didn't stop him, he just came back pissed off.  He never gave up, never once even considered trusting these genocidal *things*...  and suddenly, at the end, he simply trusts their self-proclaimed leader?  No - that's bull****.  It's unbelievable in the extreme.

Instead of watching a youtube video have you ever thought of coming to your own conclusions? You sound like harbinger, a pre-programmed entity with no mind of its own. You my friend are devoid of free will since you let youtube fill your mind instead of thinking on your own. You supported the geth didn't you?

If you didn't have the foresight to see a "leader" of the reapers, then you my friend have failed to understand the Mass Effect series. You have completely misunderstood the game.  Did you even pay attention to legion? legion even acknowledges that reapers may have uploaded organic minds.

I strongly recommend you replay the ME series from ME1 and not skip dialogue.

Sovereign, Harbinger. These are puppets. Did they ever have a philosophical argument with you?..... No they didnt' did they?. They just spout out a bunch of pre-programmed fear tactics to you didn't they?

When you encounter an entity devoid of free will, then you must assume it is a puppet.

A puppet of what?

(.... star child?) Did you sense any sign of organic thought in the star child? I did.  It was disturbing and thought provoking. Is anyone on the same page with me? Please tell me I'm not alone.

This is bull ****.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Modifié par Luzarius, 28 mars 2012 - 12:41 .

[translationninja]

OP, seriously, no personal attack or offense intended, but you sound an awful lot like my cousin Larry, he uses crystal a lot and is in and out of therapy all the time, he gets the same kind of philosophically flavored self-righteous epiphanies where he knows the secret to everything and us mere mortals are simply not getting it.

That stuff is bad for ya, you know?

[FOX216BC]

Luzarius wrote...

Shepard fought as hard as possible.  In the end you were nearly bleeding out, almost dead. But you pushed on.

"A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfilment fantasy for the author or reader."....

Shepard was not a mary sue. Bioware, you are legend. You chose to push our limits.

Instead of some unrealistic ending, we were treated to an ending that challenged us to "accept our limitations" and acknowledge how powerful the reapers were. Shepard can only go so far. Shepard HAD to trust all the advanced civilizations that made the crucible. Shep had FAITH.

Then.............. The crucible connected and it worked. We got a small window to influence this powerful creation known as the catalyst. All those dead civilizations struggled and fought so they could give Shepard a what, ten to fifteen minute window?

MY CHALLENGE TO YOU:

I want you to experience the Mass Effect series as I did.

No death ruleset: If you let shepard die, you restart the game over again (3/5 people won't understand this).

ME1: Set the difficulty to casual. I want you to play through ME1 without letting your shepard die. I want you to understand how much fun it is to ensure your sheps survival.   You may think the fights will be "too easy", but let's see how you feel after 20 hours. (Brave? Set it to normal....) Start feeling what Shepard is feeling. Understand the character. 

ME2: Okay, did you beat ME1 in a no death ruleset? Ok tough guy. Now import into ME2..... Watch the intro. Upset? Yes your shep dies. You'll truly understand the start of ME2 since you played ME1 in a no death ruleset. You'll see the game in a new light. Now in ME2 set the difficulty to normal.  Now play through the entire game without letting your shep die.  I believe in you, you can do it. Just understand every dialogue option and fight as hard as you can, you will make it. I promise you. Don't let your Shepard be "indecisive". Pick a morale base and stick to it.

ME3: You beat ME2 in a no death, good job. You make me proud. Now import into ME3. Earth is doomed! You have to survive. By now you understand survival through Shepards eyes because you played ME1 & ME2 in a no death ruleset.  Now you can see ME3 in the proper light. You have to survive until the very end of the game.  ME3 is about survival & trust.  Two very basic concepts. By the end of ME3 you will only recognize two things. Survival & your shepards personality.   The catalyst will make sense, the options presented will make perfect sense. Everything will fall into place, I guarantee it. Please trust me.

Anyone can beat the game on insanity, it's childs play. But not everyone can beat the game in a no death play through...... It's a mental challenge. One that will allow you to truly understand Commander Shepard.

This style of play will allow you to enjoy the Mass Effect 3 ending. This is my gift to you. Embrace it or let your emotions take hold and rebel (like a little school girl). 

Challeng me back! I'm ready. Hit me up with your challenge. *spits on the ground*. (waits for the trolls)

I make this post with much love, please trust brother Luz.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Here's a challenge"Without trolling" it will take 39 minutes of your life.

Is this guy wrong? i dont think so

Modifié par FOX216BC, 28 mars 2012 - 12:48 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Let's just all pretend that Heavy Rain never happened.

[Sundance31us]

Dr8Jones wrote...
If he were bleeding out/dying, how the hell did I survive the Citadel blowing up in my face?

Maybe the explosion cauterized his wounds.