229 réponses à ce sujet

[Asuka Bianchini]

Luzarius wrote...

Instead of watching a youtube video have you ever thought of coming to your own conclusions? You sound like harbinger, a pre-programmed entity with no mind of its own. You my friend are devoid of free will since you let youtube fill your mind instead of thinking on your own. You supported the geth didn't you?

If you didn't have the foresight to see a "leader" of the reapers, then you my friend have failed to understand the Mass Effect series. You have completely misunderstood the game.  Did you even pay attention to legion? legion even acknowledges that reapers may have uploaded organic minds.

I strongly recommend you replay the ME series from ME1 and not skip dialogue.

Sovereign, Harbinger. These are puppets. Did they ever have a philosophical argument with you?..... No they didnt' did they?. They just spout out a bunch of pre-programmed fear tactics to you didn't they?

When you encounter an entity devoid of free will, then you must assume it is a puppet.

A puppet of what?

(.... star child?) Did you sense any sign of organic thought in the star child? I did.  It was disturbing and thought provoking. Is anyone on the same page with me? Please tell me I'm not alone.

This is bull ****.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own, you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign.
Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction. In the end, what they chose to call us is irrelevant, we simply are.
Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither, and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing.
Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.
The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilisations rise, evolve, advance, then at the apex of their glory, they are extinguished. The Protheans were not the first, they did not create the citadel, they did not forge the mass relays, they merely found them, the legacy of my kind.
Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.
We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.
Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over.[/list]


Btw, you do have a kind of a Sovereign complex, don't you, OP?

Modifié par Asuka Bianchini, 28 mars 2012 - 12:54 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Luzarius wrote...
If you have to watch a youtube video. Then it PROVES that you have no idea who commander shepard is.
Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

By failing to understand or even watch that video it PROVES you are incorrect. See how that works?

Also:

Luzarius wrote...
... Please tell me I'm not alone.

You are alone.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 28 mars 2012 - 12:59 .

[streamlock]

My experience with ME3 is that the Starchild is full of it. Nothing you or Bioware can say will change that.

Yeah, I'm hard headed. And have an iota of faith that Bioware intended you to see through that farce at some point, not be forced to take hallucinogenics and listen to Pink Floyd for 100 hours straight to 'get it'.

[Tallestra]

OP, you're just amazing. You are so narrow-minded that you simply fail to see that other people might have other opinions. I stand by my words, the ending is fit for you because you're incapable to understand other points of view. So, grow up and accept that not everything in the world is about you. Stubbornly repeating your words will not make them true, live with it.

[Myrmedus]

Luzarius wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Luzarius wrote...

FyreSyder wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No.

Proof is absolute.

This is the type of player who didn't understand the ME3 ending. I can no longer respond to this type of response. But the proof is absolute.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Indeed, proof is absolute - too bad you have none.

In fact, I'd argue your OP is actually an argument as to why the ending is bad. All the way through the game Shepard manages to survive the odds. In fact, the first few words in the game label him as a "survivor". Yet, the ending is a direct violation of the character's nature and established themes - not so much because he doesn't survive it all but because he doesn't even go out defiant or fighting.

An appropriate analogy would be a hardened warrior going out with a whimper. The starchild's logic is not circular, rather it's redundant, and there is no way my Shepard would've adhered to it. Why? Because -I- didn't adhere to it, and Shepard was meant to be -my- character as established by every minute of gameplay and plot development up until that point. Yet, at the last hurdle, all of that is stripped away.

I call bull****.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think Shepard and a united galaxy could defeat the reapers without the crucible? You're telling me that your way is better than all the previous extinct civilizations who died trying to give you this technology called the "crucible".

The bioware ending is a lesson in "swallowing your pride".  Maybe Bioware messed up thinking that "young" people would be mature enough to understand the ending.

It takes a real man to know his limits. All I see on this forum is a bunch of 13 year old kids who didn't understand the ending because of their blind egotistical ignorance.

EGO & Pride will blind you. It will blind you from understanding the beauty of the ME3 ending. Bioware went somewhere brilliant yet people don't understand. It drives me insane. 

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

I think that it would be worth giving it a shot.

Think about this: in ME1, Saren's objective was for us to survive the Reaper onslaught by essentially bowing our heads: by choosing submission over annihilation. One could argue that in this situation, "swallowing your pride" as you put it, is a similar outcome: you're still submitting to their will. True, Shepard has managed to make them rethink somewhat but they're still very much dictating to him what will happen. Shepard's decision at the end of ME3 spiritually conflicts with his defiance in ME1 - it creates an inconsistency.

Let us not forget as well, if we're to believe what the Star Child says is true, then the Reapers don't actually want to kill us but are simply doing what they're doing to keep organic life alive in the long run. Be that as it may, that is a potential bargaining chip. We have shown that its current solution doesn't work, and it has presented us with 3 other solutions. If we were to argue against it, we have some leverage due to its motivations. It is unlikely to just continue to wipe us out because it has already ordained that line of action a failure: in other words, both sides have some leverage and the ending was a perfect position for some powerful to and thro dialogue. Instead, we just capitulate and submit to the Reaper's will even though everything in the plot thitherto cast their assertions into doubt.

And that doesn't even cover many of the other issues people have with the ending such as the sheer existence and nature of the Catalyst let alone anything it might say.

Also, I'd suggest coming down off your high and mighty horse about how you're the sole person who understands etc. many people who dislike the endings are intelligent people able to grasp a variety of complex concepts and ideas. Simply because don't agree with you about the ending being "brilliant" does not mean we do not understand something.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 28 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[BDelacroix]

I played ME1 with no shepard death the first time I played it. I set it on normal. Its not hard to do.
I don't recall if I got whacked in ME2 the first play through. Also on normal.

At either rate, it doesn't make the space kid more palatable.

[rexx1888]

git..

i feel we should all just call op a git from now on, a thread of us calling him a git will have far more impact than trying to talk to him

[Arathon]

Go away and leave us alone.
I read enough of your pro ending feelings.
You like the ending good i am truly happy for
you, but let us the Majority who dislikes the ending
in peace.

[Alexius]

Please explain: Why would I have to play a game under certain off-game ruleset to "get" the ending? This game conveys enough emotion without any of that and it gives a fairly good impression of Shepard's personality and mindset, no matter how many times I got her killed during combat.

It's like telling me that I'll only understand Harry Potter if I read it upside down on rainy days. It makes no sense.

[Ieldra]

Well, OP, if the ending is "a lesson in swallowing your pride", as you wrote, then it totally went over your head, that's for sure.

Besides, trusting an entity spewing apparent bullsh*t isn't swallowing my pride, it's stupid. I have never found (pretensions to) divinity a reason for trust. More like the opposite, in fact. Or would you trust the word of a superpowered alien wizard who just admitted that it was his goal to eradicate your civilization?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 mars 2012 - 01:25 .

[UKJackMan]

HOW IRONIC the only way to really accept the ending is to play the game like a machine with no soul, the more human emotions you invest the worse the ending becomes.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Shepard didn't trust Sovereign. Didn't trust Harbinger. Didn't trust Saren. Didn't trust the Council. Didn't trust the Illusive Man. Hell you can make him/her show distrust for former squadmates/friends, such as Legion. Yet s/he should trust the words of some randomly apearing god-child, who openly admitted being the leader of the Reapers, blindly?

Your argument makes about as much sense as the ending. That is to say, none. The fact you are trying to impose it as the ''correct'' way and invent some ridiculouly controved ''ruleset'' to support it does not support your case, as well.

So in a word, no.

[Xandax]

Luzarius wrote...

<snip>The catalyst will make sense, the options presented will make perfect sense. Everything will fall into place, I guarantee it. Please trust me.
<snip>

Your guarentee is worthless and the Starchild will not make sense.

No need to play it through again for that.

Modifié par Xandax, 28 mars 2012 - 01:32 .

[Ultra Prism]

I am not you, so it is difficult to implement that idea in me .. unless you wanna go all inception

[Melicamp]

 "He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." ~ William Drummond
This quote sums up for me everything wrong with the OP's argument, and wrong with the protagonist's motivations in the last 10 minutes.

The OP wishes us to believe that Shepard is somehow virtuous in submitting to, and having blind faith in an entity he only just met. That a protagonist who has shown a fierce streak of independence, determination, and rationality could suddenly abandon his core principles without first undergoing a psychotic break is laughable. When he meets the catalyst, Shepard fails to reason with it and it's choices, and we are not told why. He either would not, could not, or dared not - all of which are instantly recognisable as antithetical to Shepard's character.

Also, the idea that a convential ending would make Shepard a "Mary Sue" shows a pretty basic lack of knowledge or understanding of the concept and plot of Mass Effect - something the OP has repeatedly accused others of. There are many examples I could use to debunk the Sue claim, but I only need one: a Mary-Sue character would have found a way to save both Ash and Kaidan. In a idealised, wish-fulfillment based fantasy, nobody would have died.

For Shepard to be a Mary Sue, they would also have to be free of character flaws. The vast majority of renegade options clearly throws that idea out of the window. If you can explain to me how punching a reporter just for asking questions isn't a flaw, please enlighten me.

I'm sure I'm about to be told I'm misinformed, ignorant, a puppet, lacking a mind of my own, etc etc etc. but hey, maybe this time'll be different right? 

I'm also sure that the fact I didn't play through without dying or pausing, somehow magically invalidates my opinion, so I've decided that my own arbitrary rule is that you can't properly understand Shepard's struggles if you didn't play through naked. Without being free of clothes you can't fully understand the vulnerability Shepard feels, so a clothed player lacks the ability to see the ending properly. Until the OP plays through in the buff, I'm might just discount all of his counter arguments on that basis. 

[T-0pel]

wtf is this? Are you trying to say that the only way to comprehend the ending is to do a no death run?! And even if that was true wouldnt it be a complete design fail? This is a video game...

[LastFadingSmile]

UKJackMan wrote...

HOW IRONIC the only way to really accept the ending is to play the game like a machine with no soul, the more human emotions you invest the worse the ending becomes.

Ta-da!

[camirish1]

Don't know if this was asked, but are you the person who streamed your entire first playthrough live with everyone spamming you every second? God fearing, AI hating Shepard?

[Sainta117]

To badly misquote Dr. Cox: "TROLL troll troll troll. Troll TROLL troll troll. Troll! Troll! OP's a Troll!"

[Myrmedus]

A no death run will actually heighten the sinking feeling of the ending. At least it did with me (I've done no death runs with ME1 and 2 and simply didn't die in 3).

A no death run makes your character feel immortal and invincible - and ironically just solidifies the "Mary Sue" feeling of Shepard's character - thus contrasting further against the pigeon-holed feeling of the ending.

In short, it actually rubs salt in the wound IMO, it does not make it easier to swallow.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 28 mars 2012 - 01:47 .

[Mnementh2230]

Luzarius wrote...

Mnementh2230 wrote...

Luzarius wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Luzarius wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No.

This person didn't even read what I said. He/she must of skipped every dialogue option in ME.

Do not be like this person.

The angry one will forever be remembered on the internet as someone who doesn't read and comprehend and instead responds to a title. This is the type of player who won't understand the ME3 ending.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Cute. But you use a lot of words to say nothing.
My Shepard would never give up. She would never "trust" an untrustworthy, genocidal maniac.
She would fight to the bitter end no matter what. She would not give up. I understand the ending perfectly.

Sounds like you wanted to rebel against the star child instead of accepting the help of billions of extinct souls lost to the reapers in the past million years.

simply, you failed to understand the crucible.

No, Bioware failed to write an ending that makes sense.  The crucible/star-child is a literal deus ex machina, introduced in the wrong part of the story (according to proper dramatic structure), whose sole purpose is to cover up for the rushed nature of the ending.

Let's just look at it from a slightly different perspective.  You've got Shepard, who has fought for years to protect not just humanity, but the entire galaxy, from the Reaper threat.  Even killing him didn't stop him, he just came back pissed off.  He never gave up, never once even considered trusting these genocidal *things*...  and suddenly, at the end, he simply trusts their self-proclaimed leader?  No - that's bull****.  It's unbelievable in the extreme.

Instead of watching a youtube video have you ever thought of coming to your own conclusions? You sound like harbinger, a pre-programmed entity with no mind of its own. You my friend are devoid of free will since you let youtube fill your mind instead of thinking on your own. You supported the geth didn't you?

If you didn't have the foresight to see a "leader" of the reapers, then you my friend have failed to understand the Mass Effect series. You have completely misunderstood the game.  Did you even pay attention to legion? legion even acknowledges that reapers may have uploaded organic minds.

I strongly recommend you replay the ME series from ME1 and not skip dialogue.

Sovereign, Harbinger. These are puppets. Did they ever have a philosophical argument with you?..... No they didnt' did they?. They just spout out a bunch of pre-programmed fear tactics to you didn't they?

When you encounter an entity devoid of free will, then you must assume it is a puppet.

A puppet of what?

(.... star child?) Did you sense any sign of organic thought in the star child? I did.  It was disturbing and thought provoking. Is anyone on the same page with me? Please tell me I'm not alone.

This is bull ****.

I have come to my own conclusions.  The ending breaks with everything the series has been up to this point.  We're departing from all the themes, choices, and...  well, EVERYTHING, the series has presented to us at that point, and heading in to straight-up fantasy.  There's no excuse, there's no decent transition, it's just an abrupt departure to fantasy, and to quote Isaac Asimov on the subject, "It's insulting to the intelligent reader."

I did see a leader of the reapers - Harbinger.  He's what was hinted at since Mass Effect 2.  We never had a philosophical argument because no such thing was required - the Reapers were better off as an unfathomable enemy with inscrutable end goals.  To give them a purpose that is self-conflicting (we're going to save all life from being replaced by synthentics by making all intelligent life synthetic) smacks of lazy writing or, more realistically, rushed writing.  Given what we know about the original plot, and how it had to do with the Reapers killing off sentient life to remove the threat of Dark Energy destroying the galaxy (as hinted at in Tali's recruitment mission in ME2), we can see it's just a quick patch to cover up the gaping hole left when they tore that key story element out of the narrative.

Even so, that's completely immaterial and irrelevant to the argument.  So what if they have a leader - THAT isn't a problem - at least give me a reason to TRUST the damn thing.  And no, I don't buy the "Shepard/you has/have got to have faith" argument.  That's bullsh*t, and insulting to me on multiple levels.

And no, I didn't get any sense of organic thought in the star-child.  What I got out of it was bad writing.  I was too busy marveling at how they thought this A/B/C choice was a good ending to try to decipher whether or not the entity was in some way organic - and in the end, what difference does that make, a simple feeling like that?  It could very well be an AI that can simulate such patterns of speech simply because it's been observing organics on the Citadel for who knows how many cycles.  You're grasping at straws here.

We still don't have a reason why Shepard would trust this Reaper *THING*, we still have an incredibly important character being introduced in the wrong part of the story, we still have a literal deus ex machina (an artifice of the lazy/ineffective writer), and this deus ex machina is still giving an ineffective reason for his compliance with your choice - obviously it could stop you if it wanted to, but it's just going to allow you to decide its fate?  You're talking about this thing having an organic mind, but it has no self preservation instinct, no problem with massacaring trillions of innocents?  No, that doesn't fly either.

Finally, I did play all through the series, never skipped any dialog, and have enjoyed every minute of it - until the last five or so minutes.  You are alone here, and I suspect it's because you don't understand the themes of the game.

[ediskrad327]

op is starchild clearly

[Melicamp]

T-0pel wrote...

wtf is this? Are you trying to say that the only way to comprehend the ending is to do a no death run?! And even if that was true wouldnt it be a complete design fail? This is a video game...

The OP is using the No True Scotsman fallacy to shield his illogical position. By stating that you can't understand the ending unless you've done a no death run he ensures he can dismiss opposing viewpoints by saying they're not really "Scotsmen". This is evidenced by his response to someone saying they did a no death run and the OP responding with the introduction of a "no-pause" clause - this is called moving the goalposts, a favoured tactic of those who know they can't defend their position with logic.

[Greeneye-s]

Ah yes the opinion of someone who has only played the 3rd game in the series. Everyone can have an opinion, yes , just sometimes they are not always based on enough information to be valid.

[huntrrz]

camirish1 wrote...

Don't know if this was asked, but are you the person who streamed your entire first playthrough live with everyone spamming you every second? God fearing, AI hating Shepard?

Yep, same guy, whose commentary included nearly every sentence beginning with the word, "DUDE!!!"

He thought the ending was "***AWESOME***!!!! :wizard::O" because the game had somehow read his mind and presented him with the choice he would have imagined himself, not realizing that it had only coincidentally meshed with his playstyle and mindset.