465 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...

The value add of "preserving" the organic species as a reaper is eliminated when you remember that Harbinger stated in ME2 only humanity was going to be preserved as a reaper.  Everyone else was considered genetically unworthy.  So in reality, for the majority of the species in the galaxy, the "Yo Dawg" image is 100% accurate.

Wrong.  The codex confirms that the other races are harvested to build destroyers.

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...
Further destroy the idea that the reapers consider preservation important, is the cycle itself.  We know that Reapers have been killed in previous cycles, as well as in this one.  Each time this happens, a previous organic civilization is wiped out.  If the catalyst really valued preservation of organic life over all other concerns, he wouldn't risk them in this way.  He would have the reapers harvest each species before they could ever construct massive fleets of starships and advanced weaponry to battle them.

Fixed that for you.

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...
This is before we get to the meat and bones about how the catalyst by definition must be an AI and since he doesn't want to kill all organics, he disproves his own hypothesis.

Incorrect.  The Catalyst need not be an unshackled AI, which is the dangerous type.

Here's Xzibit explaining the real plan:

 

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

Dance Craze wrote...

phew, that needed debunking

Too bad he failed.   

[Tehzim]

Don't feed the troll.

[Catroi]

Rule of the internet N° 11: "all your carefully picked arguments can easily be ignored."

[Militarized]

The whole unshackled AI/shackled AI thing is dumb anyway, in my honest opinion.... forcing human perceptions onto a totally alien existence is ridiculous, and representing a theory that is about to run into a brick wall in our own world possibly(it potentially already has, it's based on Moores Law) is even more ludicrous.

We have no way of knowing how an AI, if that's even possible, would perceive the universe around it. It may simply ignore us completely for sciences sake, sheesh.

[Serpicos]

Luzarius wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

We know, the pictures are a simplified image to express displeasure at the endings. End.

Simplified for simple minds. Thus proving me 100% correct.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

[IMG]https://whyweprotest.net/asset-proxy/32e030116a3b920bbb9ef42eab438958f1e98e6b/687474703a2f2f693536302e70686f746f6275636b65742e636f6d2f616c62756d732f737334382f46616e676574682f6d6178696d756d2d74726f6c6c696e672e6a7067/http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss48/Fangeth/maximum-trolling.jpg [/IMG]

[jackb994]

Aweus wrote...

Lazarius is a known and confirmed troll. This adds to the record.
Thank you for your attention.

How is he a troll for stating the truth? Firstly it's HIS opinion and therefore it is not 'wrong' or 'trolling'. He explains the pictures rationally and his explanation DOES work.

Any post criticising the ending > 'NORMAL' (I say this in ' ' because the people who hate the ending are a minority relative to the sales of the game currently).
Any post which likes the ending > TROLLING.

Because thats what you are making it out to be.

And as why for why the Reapers only harvest the most technologically advanced races....they are harvested into new Reapers or 'ascended' as the Citadel/Reaper V.I states.

Modifié par jackb994, 28 mars 2012 - 02:34 .

[Baine10]

Don't feed the troll. He's purposefully doing this just to gain views and stir up people.

[lordofdogtown19]

You know a guy is a troll when is profile picture is of Udina..... just sayin

[CaptainZaysh]

Militarized wrote...

We have no way of knowing how an AI, if that's even possible, would perceive the universe around it. It may simply ignore us completely for sciences sake, sheesh.

AI is definitely possible in the ME universe.

You may be right that it would ignore or act benevolently toward organics: the concern, of course, is that it may not.  If we allow a synthetic intelligence to emerge that is many times more intelligent than us, it follows that the possibility it could destroy us is non-zero.

Given a long enough period of time, all non-zero possibilities must eventually occur.

Therefore, the Catalyst is right to assume that the future of the galaxy is Synthetic.  Whether you think that's good or bad is irrelevant - clearly the Catalyst believes (or is programmed to believe) that's undesirable.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 28 mars 2012 - 02:36 .

[sydranark]

Hexley UK wrote...

Gotta love this guy, tries to debunk a meme (LOL) and doesn't even do it that well.

As for the thought behind the meme answer me this -

Why not just kill all synthetics every cycle?

Because that would have made too much sense =P

Here is the common explanation behind that: 

If the reapers kill just synthetics and leave, then this generation of advanced civilizations will have "learned their lesson" about creating AI. But what happens in the next generation and the generation after that? It's simply impossible to keep track of absolutely all people in every alien civilization. If one of them creates a synthetic, and then all of them create synthetics, and then these synthetics kill all lifeforms, then the reapers failed. You could say "the reapers can come back then to kill all synthetics again." But that's not the point. Plus that might happen every 1k years, 2k years, 3k years. 

Instead, if they nipped the growth at te bud and killed all organics, then it would allow the more primitive ones to at least live until the next 50k years. Makes sense, right? No, I still think it's dumb. The reapers don't have proof that synthetics will ever take over and try to kill all lifeforms. The reapers don't know the actual chance/risk that synthetics will try to kill all life. They are just assuming it will happen, and they are acting on it. Therefore they are acting unintelligently (stupidly).

Modifié par sydranark, 28 mars 2012 - 02:42 .

[savionen]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Militarized wrote...

We have no way of knowing how an AI, if that's even possible, would perceive the universe around it. It may simply ignore us completely for sciences sake, sheesh.

AI is definitely possible in the ME universe.

You may be right that it would ignore or act benevolently toward organics: the concern, of course, is that it may not.  If we allow a synthetic intelligence to emerge that is many times more intelligent than us, it follows that the possibility it could destroy us is non-zero.

Given a long enough period of time, all non-zero possibilities must eventually occur.

Therefore, the Catalyst is right to assume that the future of the galaxy is Synthetic.  Whether you think that's good or bad is irrelevant - clearly the Catalyst believes (or is programmed to believe) that's undesirable.

I'm not killing my neighbor right now. Doesn't mean that I eventually will. There's always a chance somethin will happen, but there's no guarantee that it will, because it hasn't happened yet.

[Rafe34]

jackb994 wrote...

Aweus wrote...

Lazarius is a known and confirmed troll. This adds to the record.
Thank you for your attention.

How is he a troll for stating the truth? Firstly it's HIS opinion and therefore it is not 'wrong' or 'trolling'. He explains the pictures rationally and his explanation DOES work.

Any post criticising the ending > 'NORMAL' (I say this in ' ' because the people who hate the ending are a minority relative to the sales of the game currently).
Any post which likes the ending > TROLLING.

Because thats what you are making it out to be.

And as why for why the Reapers only harvest the most technologically advanced races....they are harvested into new Reapers or 'ascended' as the Citadel/Reaper V.I states.

No, that's not why he's a known and confirmed troll, it's because of the way he says things as if he is superior and we should all bow to his logic. But don't take my word for it- check out his posts!

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Wrong.  The codex confirms that the other races are harvested to build destroyers.

 

So Harbinger was just out of the loop?  This is important.  You can retcon anything you want but you have to deal with the consequences.  The primary one being that Harbinger and the reapers were obsessed with getitng that Human reaper built (dark energy ending)  and it couldn't have even been completed before the reapers arrived a few months later.  We call this a plothole.  If the point of reaperization is preservation than the entire plot of ME2 is rendered useless. 

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...
Fixed that for you.  

Not really.  What is the downside to harvesting a race 200 years earlier?  The only concerns are genetics according to the games.  No evolution of note can have taken place in such a short time frame.  There are no other valid concerns when the catalyst has established that

A. It is important to him that organic life not be wiped out by synthetic life.
B. That his solution is to reaperize them in order to preserve them.

His solution violates both of these facts.  Other solutions exist that do not.  

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...
Incorrect.  The Catalyst need not be an unshackled AI, which is the dangerous type. 

If he is shackled then by definition he is unable to alter his programming.  Yet he explicitly states that the reapers are "HIS" solution.  Not an organic race who created him and shackled him.  So he's what...a liar?  Oh those shackled AI, always making crap up.

Modifié par Atraiyu Wrynn, 28 mars 2012 - 02:41 .

[Machazareel]

Militarized wrote...

Bad King wrote...

It is pretty lame, but it was established as canon as far back as ME2 that the reapers consisted of many individuals merged together as one. They are changed somewhat, but we don't know to what degree they were changed, perhaps certain elements of their peoples were preserved within the reapers: we have no way of knowing.

That's part of why the ending is so bad... I understand using DNA from a species to run the ship along with synthetics.. like a blend of both but the brain being synthetic code but it uses the analogy of the "Nation". Or whatever.  Like you said, that sounds fine because they're behavior can be explained with the Reaper code, etc... but...

All that goes out the window at the end of ME3 though... the sky wizard says he CONTROLS them, which means they literally have no free will. They are puppets on a string with, as I said, a VI with a megalomania personality. Embarassing... 

And that's the real problem. It's claimed by many that one of the defining characteristics of being human is free will. By taking that away, we stop being human, and whatever is stored in the reaper does not represent us.

[shinobi602]

jackb994 wrote...
And as why for why the Reapers only harvest the most technologically
advanced races....they are harvested into new Reapers or 'ascended' as
the Citadel/Reaper V.I states.

"Ascended" meaning their melted into **** and forced to become part of a megamachine that goes around doing what starkid tells it to do. Sounds super. Just the way I'd imagine sentient life would like to go out.

[Element40]

RLesueur wrote...

No guys, he's just so smart we need to take -at least three days- just to understand this.

I mean think about it, what he's saying means that all the faith we've placed in Yo Dawg Guy might be misplaced. This...this changes -everything-.

I don't think limited intellects like our own that aren't used to talking to 50-60 people at one time super fast, can possibly understand this without a few days of thought.

Don't be sarcastic... OP already proved he doesnt understand sattire or sarcasm
He probably thinks you are totally serious about his "intellect"

[Machazareel]

Totally hit quote instead of edit.  Derp.

Modifié par Machazareel, 28 mars 2012 - 02:43 .

[Bad King]

Machazareel wrote...

Militarized wrote...

Bad King wrote...

It is pretty lame, but it was established as canon as far back as ME2 that the reapers consisted of many individuals merged together as one. They are changed somewhat, but we don't know to what degree they were changed, perhaps certain elements of their peoples were preserved within the reapers: we have no way of knowing.

That's part of why the ending is so bad... I understand using DNA from a species to run the ship along with synthetics.. like a blend of both but the brain being synthetic code but it uses the analogy of the "Nation". Or whatever.  Like you said, that sounds fine because they're behavior can be explained with the Reaper code, etc... but...

All that goes out the window at the end of ME3 though... the sky wizard says he CONTROLS them, which means they literally have no free will. They are puppets on a string with, as I said, a VI with a megalomania personality. Embarassing... 

And that's the real problem. It's claimed by many that one of the defining characteristics of being human is free will. By taking that away, we stop being human, and whatever is stored in the reaper does not represent us.

That's assuming that free will isn't simply an illusion imposed on factors which control us which are out of our own control.

[Militarized]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Militarized wrote...

We have no way of knowing how an AI, if that's even possible, would perceive the universe around it. It may simply ignore us completely for sciences sake, sheesh.

AI is definitely possible in the ME universe.

You may be right that it would ignore or act benevolently toward organics: the concern, of course, is that it may not.  If we allow a synthetic intelligence to emerge that is many times more intelligent than us, it follows that the possibility it could destroy us is non-zero.

Given a long enough period of time, all non-zero possibilities must eventually occur.

Therefore, the Catalyst is right to assume that the future of the galaxy is Synthetic.  Whether you think that's good or bad is irrelevant - clearly the Catalyst believes (or is programmed to believe) that's undesirable.

In the ME universe yes but I was picking at it from an IRL perspective, due to it being based off an IRL theory. 

And... how is that any different from an organic species that is technologically superior from destroying us right this very moment? This also doesn't explore the idea that an AI may have just as many limitations as we do, it jumps to a conclusion based on subjective evidence and then forms an adjacent conclusion that can only be derived from human perceptions and bias. 

It would not be infitely more intelligent first of all, I deny the whole concept of the singularity. I admit the potential for violence is there, what I DISAGREE with is the jumping to the conclusion that we are immediatly extinct due to this "entity" gaining intelligence... any concept of limitations it may have are completely thrown out the airlock and replaced with human fear-mongering because something might be more intelligent then us. From my perspective it is human hubris and narccism manifesting it's self, projecting it's self onto an unknowable. 

Let's not even go into the fact that is would be impossible for it wipe out all organic life in the galaxy anyway. 

[CaptainZaysh]

savionen wrote...

I'm not killing my neighbor right now. Doesn't mean that I eventually will. There's always a chance somethin will happen, but there's no guarantee that it will, because it hasn't happened yet.

Let's compare two risk cases and see if we can spot a difference

CASE 1
(Chance of you killing your neighbour) x (your short lifespan) = remote possibility

Consequences of possibility occurring: dead neighbour


CASE 2
(Chance of hyperintelligent synthetics destroying organic civilisation) x (infinity) = almost certain to happen

Consquence of possibility occurring: no more organic civilisations

[Militarized]

Bad King wrote...

That's assuming that free will isn't simply an illusion imposed on factors which control us which are out of our own control.

Both choice and the illusion of choice exist parallel to each other and are interwoven . 

[garf]

jackb994 wrote...

Aweus wrote...

Lazarius is a known and confirmed troll. This adds to the record.
Thank you for your attention.

How is he a troll for stating the truth? Firstly it's HIS opinion and therefore it is not 'wrong' or 'trolling'. He explains the pictures rationally and his explanation DOES work.

Any post criticising the ending > 'NORMAL' (I say this in ' ' because the people who hate the ending are a minority relative to the sales of the game currently).
Any post which likes the ending > TROLLING.

Because thats what you are making it out to be.

And as why for why the Reapers only harvest the most technologically advanced races....they are harvested into new Reapers or 'ascended' as the Citadel/Reaper V.I states.

A) not this minority/majority nonsense.

it's not liking the ending, that makes it trolling. It is the tone and word choice of the post which in this as in many other cases, Insults the intelligence, taste, or other discerning features of those who might disagree before they even get a chance to speak.

[CaptainZaysh]

Militarized wrote...

And... how is that any different from an organic species that is technologically superior from destroying us right this very moment?

Then they would replace us.  Organic civilisation continues.  That's not the problem the Reapers are there to solve.

Militarized wrote...

It would not be infitely more intelligent first of all, I deny the whole concept of the singularity.

In the ME universe it's really very difficult to deny.   Consider:

1).  EDI's creators made a machine more intelligent than they are.

2).  EDI is therefore capable of making a machine more intelligent than she is.

3).  EDI's machine is therefore capable...etc

This is an explosion of intelligence.  The inevitable result is a machine that is grandly more intelligent than any organic.  Superior intelligence = dominance.

Militarized wrote...
I admit the potential for violence is there, what I DISAGREE with is the jumping to the conclusion that we are immediatly extinct due to this "entity" gaining intelligence...

Even if there's only a very low chance of it turning hostile (and, let's be honest, we would find it very hard to understand the motives of a superintelligent being), the chance is still there.  It's a non-zero possibility.  Given galactic timescales, all non-zero possibilites must eventually occur.

Militarized wrote...
Let's not even go into the fact that is would be impossible for it wipe out all organic life in the galaxy anyway. 

It would be trivially easy.  Von Neumann probes with FTL drives and ortillery weapons would do fine.

[RhoanD]

Heres the thing the reapers will kill off all life eventually (well all life capable of evolving to intelligent state of being) it might take millions of years but sooner or later they will have killed all life in the galaxy. So the yo dawg thing while simplified is still true.

Modifié par RhoanD, 28 mars 2012 - 02:51 .