465 réponses à ce sujet

[anlk92]

Actually the meme doesn't even do justice to the stupidity of spacebrat's logic.

The Reapers also use synthetics (geth) to kill organics, twice in the course of the trilogy, and in one instance they do it by improving them. And those two are the only instances in the trilogy where a synthetic threatens organic life on a large scale.

Modifié par anlk92, 28 mars 2012 - 02:06 .

[shinobi602]

Bad King wrote...

The OP is correct. I wasn't a fan of the reapers' motives, but at least it makes sense. They 'ascend' advanced species before they have the chance of creating powerful AI technology that would wipe out/replace all organic life. This is the catalyst's way of preserving sentient organic life.

You mean like how the Geth wiped out the Quarians? Wait, no, no they didn't. Bioware debunked the issue that synthetic life will "always rebel against their creators" in their own damn game.

And can you tell me how they're "preserved"? They're melted into goop and forced to become part of some megamachine? Where do they go? Where does their conscience go? Are their souls drifting somewhere? Sounds like being royally ****ed to me and not how I'd want to go out.

[jb1983]

bahamutomega wrote...

jb1983 wrote...

I think there are a few sad/funny things here:

1) He's attempting to debunk a troll attempt, leading us to debunk him when he's trolling...this is so meta

2) The "logic" isn't that synthetics kill advanced organics, it's that the whole problem was fixed in game via the Geth/Quarian peace. Thus, the "contradiction" is that the reasoning contradicts the in-game narrative. It'd be like finding the God-child to be a Turian, and the Turian saying he wants to kill advanced humans since Turians and Humans can't get along.

3) Even for those who didn't get the peace treaty, the mere existence of Legion disproves the "logic" of the Catalyst.

Thus, the writing is illogical because it contradicts the lore. The catalyst himself isn't necessarily illogical, just ill-informed. And had Bioware included an option to say, "Nah Brah, Geth/Quarian peace. Sup with that brah? Defeat." then the writing would make more sense. But that didn't happen. So the writing doesn't make more sense.

Trololol.

GAH!  trolling a troll!  more circular logic!

i think my head is gonna explode!

I trolled a troll who in turn trolled my trolling of his trolling. Trolololololololool

[Bad King]

daguest wrote...

Bad King wrote...

The OP is correct. I wasn't a fan of the reapers' motives, but at least it makes sense. They 'ascend' advanced species before they have the chance of creating powerful AI technology that would wipe out/replace all organic life. This is the catalyst's way of preserving sentient organic life.

Ascending in a way or another mean they still exist. Do you see any prothean (except javik) "saved" by reapers? Any inusamon ? Any others from countless civilization before ? No. None. Not a single one.

"We are each a nation." The reapers are made up of many individuals from different species. It changes these species but they are still there, inside the reapers.

[TK EL_]

Sigh, the logic is so poor its not even worth deeper thought. The funny thing is how the reapers end up undoing their so called ascension. Every time they come to repeat the cycle, a few of them are destroyed (we know of at least 2 occurrences before Sovereign) and probably a lot of smaller ones too. So in the end genocide is genocide

[Militarized]

Honestly, a more accurate version of it is...

"Yo dawg, I heard you're an advanced organic who didn't want to be killed by synthetics so I harvested some advanced organics to kill advanced organics to stop advanced organics from making synthetics that would kill advanced organics."

That's a more accurate description, I think it's worse too and makes it seem even dumber.

[Karathossen]

Nothing left to add after eight pages of the OP's "logic" being hammered into the ground. I might just add that it gives an incredibly self-absorbed feel to your posting when you add a signature to every single post stating your name - and in your case, even linking some profile on another site for what I can only assume to be an attempt at getting more views or hits or whatever.


JUST IN CASE YOU DIDN'T REALISE WHO WAS POSTING BASED ON THE USERNAME
- KARATHOS

PS: I'M KARATHOS.
PPS: I POSTED THIS REPLY. ME, KARATHOS

[Militarized]

Bad King wrote...

daguest wrote...

Bad King wrote...

The OP is correct. I wasn't a fan of the reapers' motives, but at least it makes sense. They 'ascend' advanced species before they have the chance of creating powerful AI technology that would wipe out/replace all organic life. This is the catalyst's way of preserving sentient organic life.

Ascending in a way or another mean they still exist. Do you see any prothean (except javik) "saved" by reapers? Any inusamon ? Any others from countless civilization before ? No. None. Not a single one.

"We are each a nation." The reapers are made up of many individuals from different species. It changes these species but they are still there, inside the reapers.

They are not there, they would express some sort of free will or experiences from their species IF they did... they are simply big dumb floating sarcophagus's with a megalomania VI if the Sky Wizard kid is right. 

It's lame as hell. 

[Bad King]

shinobi602 wrote...

Bad King wrote...

The OP is correct. I wasn't a fan of the reapers' motives, but at least it makes sense. They 'ascend' advanced species before they have the chance of creating powerful AI technology that would wipe out/replace all organic life. This is the catalyst's way of preserving sentient organic life.

You mean like how the Geth wiped out the Quarians? Wait, no, no they didn't. Bioware debunked the issue that synthetic life will "always rebel against their creators" in their own damn game.

And can you tell me how they're "preserved"? They're melted into goop and forced to become part of some megamachine? Where do they go? Where does their conscience go? Are their souls drifting somewhere? Sounds like being royally ****ed to me and not how I'd want to go out.

How do you know that the geth won't in time wipe out the quarians? Have you seen into the future of the Mass Effect universe? And if not the geth, then perhaps a more advanced AI created later by another species. As for the organics fed into the reapers, they are preserved: "We are each a nation." Reapers are made up of many voices of many individuals.

[daguest]

Bad King wrote...

daguest wrote...

Bad King wrote...

The OP is correct. I wasn't a fan of the reapers' motives, but at least it makes sense. They 'ascend' advanced species before they have the chance of creating powerful AI technology that would wipe out/replace all organic life. This is the catalyst's way of preserving sentient organic life.

Ascending in a way or another mean they still exist. Do you see any prothean (except javik) "saved" by reapers? Any inusamon ? Any others from countless civilization before ? No. None. Not a single one.

"We are each a nation." The reapers are made up of many individuals from different species. It changes these species but they are still there, inside the reapers.

How do you know that the geth won't in time wipe out the quarians? Have
you seen into the future of the Mass Effect universe? And if not the
geth, then perhaps a more advanced AI created later by another species.
As for the organics fed into the reapers, they are preserved: "We are
each a nation." Reapers are made up of many voices of many individuals.

Haven't seen the future. Can't be sure. But, what about the starchild ? Did he saw the future ?
And what about the genophage cured and maybe another krogan rebellion ? Or rachni ?

And never though since they "absorbed" trillion and trillion soul, the vast majority of them unwillingly, they would rebel ? Or the reaper would go mad ? No. Why ? Because they are all indoctrinated, lost free will, whatever ? They are not the being they were. They are part of a machine.
They are not organics anymore. They are part of a machine, and thus are synthetics. So, reapers transform organics in synthetics, so they won't be destroyed by synthetics.

Modifié par daguest, 28 mars 2012 - 02:13 .

[Foxhound2121]

Bob3terd wrote...

Up next debunking marauder shields.

No. What's next is that Luzarius is going to debunk poptart kitty and double rainbow. We are privileged to hear his insight.

[Bad King]

Militarized wrote...

Bad King wrote...

daguest wrote...

Bad King wrote...

The OP is correct. I wasn't a fan of the reapers' motives, but at least it makes sense. They 'ascend' advanced species before they have the chance of creating powerful AI technology that would wipe out/replace all organic life. This is the catalyst's way of preserving sentient organic life.

Ascending in a way or another mean they still exist. Do you see any prothean (except javik) "saved" by reapers? Any inusamon ? Any others from countless civilization before ? No. None. Not a single one.

"We are each a nation." The reapers are made up of many individuals from different species. It changes these species but they are still there, inside the reapers.

They are not there, they would express some sort of free will or experiences from their species IF they did... they are simply big dumb floating sarcophagus's with a megalomania VI if the Sky Wizard kid is right. 

It's lame as hell. 

It is pretty lame, but it was established as canon as far back as ME2 that the reapers consisted of many individuals merged together as one. They are changed somewhat, but we don't know to what degree they were changed, perhaps certain elements of their peoples were preserved within the reapers: we have no way of knowing.

[shinobi602]

Bad King wrote...

How do you know that the geth won't in time wipe out the quarians? Have you seen into the future of the Mass Effect universe? And if not the geth, then perhaps a more advanced AI created later by another species. As for the organics fed into the reapers, they are preserved: "We are each a nation." Reapers are made up of many voices of many individuals.

And how can anyone accuse them that they will? They rose up against the Quarians in DEFENSE. The point is Bioware showed us by the Geth/Quarian issue that peace can be achieved. They implied that the Geth and Quarians will live peacefully. EDI is another example. You can't just say "Well, they COULD!" Yea, and I could go out and rob a store tomorrow, maybe. Do I deserve to be arrested now?

Shepard is forced to just accept what this starkid who came out of nowhere, has to say. That is not like Shepard. He/she ALWAYS defied the odds, always held his/her head up high and persevered and didn't take what anyone had to say. This theme is repeated over and over both in ME1 and ME2.

Your argument that they're preserved still didn't answer anything about it. Repeating "They are preserved" is not an answer.

[Tapkomet]

Bad King wrote...


How do you know that the geth won't in time wipe out the quarians? Have you seen into the future of the Mass Effect universe? And if not the geth, then perhaps a more advanced AI created later by another species. As for the organics fed into the reapers, they are preserved: "We are each a nation." Reapers are made up of many voices of many individuals.

1. Geth simply wouldn't attack the Quarians. They have no reason to do so. They built a fleet to protect themselves, and were building a Dyson sphere for their own use. None of their actions had anything to do with wiping out Quarians.

2. Why would anyone create any more AIs? Do they never learn? It is also illegal.

3. Reapers are made of voices of many individuals, most of which apparently like the idea of harvesting civilizations every 50k years and sleeping in Dark Space the rest of the time. Since the previous sentence doesn't make sense, it means that the organics preserved don't have free will (if they still have any kind of consciousness). Cool way of ascending.

[Bad King]

daguest wrote...

Bad King wrote...

daguest wrote...

Bad King wrote...

The OP is correct. I wasn't a fan of the reapers' motives, but at least it makes sense. They 'ascend' advanced species before they have the chance of creating powerful AI technology that would wipe out/replace all organic life. This is the catalyst's way of preserving sentient organic life.

Ascending in a way or another mean they still exist. Do you see any prothean (except javik) "saved" by reapers? Any inusamon ? Any others from countless civilization before ? No. None. Not a single one.

"We are each a nation." The reapers are made up of many individuals from different species. It changes these species but they are still there, inside the reapers.

How do you know that the geth won't in time wipe out the quarians? Have
you seen into the future of the Mass Effect universe? And if not the
geth, then perhaps a more advanced AI created later by another species.
As for the organics fed into the reapers, they are preserved: "We are
each a nation." Reapers are made up of many voices of many individuals.

Haven't seen the future. Can't be sure. But, what about the starchild ? Did he saw the future ?
And what about the genophage cured and maybe another krogan rebellion ? Or rachni ?

And never though since they "absorbed" trillion and trillion soul, the vast majority of them unwillingly, they would rebel ? Or the reaper would go mad ? No. Why ? Because they are all indoctrinated, lost free will, whatever ? They are not the being they were. They are part of a machine.
They are not organics anymore. They are part of a machine, and thus are synthetics. So, reapers transform organics in synthetics, so they won't be destroyed by synthetics.

False. EDI claims that the reapers are at least partially organic, as does Balak when he mentions the Leviathan of Dis. The civilisations fed into the reapers are clearly changed, but we don't know to what degree they are changed- traits of their species could be preserved within them via their genetic material for all we know.

[sydranark]

Hi, you must be new here. There was already a topic on this half a week ago. The OP also used better evidence to prove that the logic isn't circular. That said, it doesn't make the logic any less vulnerable to scrutiny or comments like, "well that was f*ckin stupid."

Reaper logic:

Premise 1 (True)
All advanced civilizations create synthetics

Premise 2 (Unknown)
All syntetics will eventually kill all lifeforms (advanced & primitive)

Conclusion (Unknown)
All advanced civilizations will eventually kill all lifeforms.

Is the argument valid? Yes. Is it sound? Hell no. Soundness requires all premises to be true. They are not. Therefore, it is mere speculation. So even though it isn't circular, it is still meaningless. An uneducated/unintelligent argument falls in to the category of "unintelligent" anything: stupid. So, the argument is still stupid.

[Karathossen]

Bad King wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...

Bad King wrote...

The OP is correct. I wasn't a fan of the reapers' motives, but at least it makes sense. They 'ascend' advanced species before they have the chance of creating powerful AI technology that would wipe out/replace all organic life. This is the catalyst's way of preserving sentient organic life.

You mean like how the Geth wiped out the Quarians? Wait, no, no they didn't. Bioware debunked the issue that synthetic life will "always rebel against their creators" in their own damn game.

And can you tell me how they're "preserved"? They're melted into goop and forced to become part of some megamachine? Where do they go? Where does their conscience go? Are their souls drifting somewhere? Sounds like being royally ****ed to me and not how I'd want to go out.

How do you know that the geth won't in time wipe out the quarians? Have you seen into the future of the Mass Effect universe? And if not the geth, then perhaps a more advanced AI created later by another species. As for the organics fed into the reapers, they are preserved: "We are each a nation." Reapers are made up of many voices of many individuals.

The Geth have free will at the end, just like any organics do. How do you know the Krogan won't start a massive war of conquest and wipe out or dominate everyone else? How do you know the Salarians won't engineer a galaxywide plague that only they are immune to? How do you know the Systems Alliance won't suddenly get a new Supreme Ruler called Badolf Schmittler or Brosef Stulin whom were always big fans of the Illusive Man, and are now pushing forward with the agenda of wiping out all but the purest humans in the galaxy.

Any way you spin it, the Reapers' "solution" is based on what they believe might happen - without any thought given to the fact that if a synthetic race was given free will, would they choose coexistence instead of dominance? The geth as far as Legion and the overall story have shown, have no interest in conquest. They simply want to live. And if the organics attack them in the future, then the organics have brought it upon themselves - just like they would've attacking any purely organic race.

We can argue "what if" until the sun shuts off, but meh... Why?

[anlk92]

Bad King wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...

Bad King wrote...

The OP is correct. I wasn't a fan of the reapers' motives, but at least it makes sense. They 'ascend' advanced species before they have the chance of creating powerful AI technology that would wipe out/replace all organic life. This is the catalyst's way of preserving sentient organic life.

You mean like how the Geth wiped out the Quarians? Wait, no, no they didn't. Bioware debunked the issue that synthetic life will "always rebel against their creators" in their own damn game.

And can you tell me how they're "preserved"? They're melted into goop and forced to become part of some megamachine? Where do they go? Where does their conscience go? Are their souls drifting somewhere? Sounds like being royally ****ed to me and not how I'd want to go out.

How do you know that the geth won't in time wipe out the quarians? Have you seen into the future of the Mass Effect universe? And if not the geth, then perhaps a more advanced AI created later by another species. As for the organics fed into the reapers, they are preserved: "We are each a nation." Reapers are made up of many voices of many individuals.

That is why it is so stupid. Throughout the entire story we aren't given any indication that synthetics will wipe out organics. Instead they do the opposite by showing us how geth are actually way more peaceful than quarians and how synthetics are just another life form of their own, not stone cold killing machines.

So when at the end of the trilogy you come up and say synthetics will kill everyone, bringing up an issue that was not only non-existant in the story up until that point but even disproven, people will rightfully call that dumb and question your writing abilities.

[TK EL_]

The thing is there is no point to the reapers even being sentient at all since they just follow the orders of the star brat. The "ascension" is pointless. They don't use their higher plane of thinking for anything. They just reap every cycle and go back to sleep.

The idea of their new plane of existence/ thinking fit in with the original planned ending because they were trying to solve a problem. But with this ending, it doesn't count for s***

Modifié par TK EL , 28 mars 2012 - 02:21 .

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

 Debunking a humorous picture and pretending you are debunking the existence of any flaws in the reapers motives is pure sophistry.  It is the definition of a straw man argument.   Questioning the IQ of those who disagree with you is just childish.

This has been debated at length and those who support the current reaper motives have to ignore the previous two games in order to make anything approaching an argument.

The value add of "preserving" the organic species as a reaper is eliminated when you remember that Harbinger stated in ME2 only humanity was going to be preserved as a reaper.  Everyone else was considered genetically unworthy.  So in reality, for the majority of the species in the galaxy, the "Yo Dawg" image is 100% accurate.

Further destroying the idea that the reapers consider preservation important, is the cycle itself.  We know that Reapers have been killed in previous cycles, as well as in this one.  Each time this happens, a previous organic civilization is wiped out.  If the catalyst really valued preservation of organic life, he wouldn't risk them in this way.  He would have the reapers harvest each species before they could ever construct massive fleets of starships and advanced weaponry to battle them.

This is before we get to the meat and bones about how the catalyst by definition must be an AI and since he doesn't want to kill all organics, he disproves his own hypothesis.

All of this is to say it is abundantly clear that this motivation was never intended until they were writing the third game.  It's just the writers being unable to remeber what they've already written and keep the story internally consistent.  

The motive sucks and the reapers are devalued as villians because of it.  Xhibit is just a quick way to cut through the crap and state this.  Anyone with an IQ over 90 should be able to see this. 

Modifié par Atraiyu Wrynn, 28 mars 2012 - 02:25 .

[Dance Craze]

phew, that needed debunking

[Karathossen]

Anlk91 - good point, one that I forgot to mention in my post before yours. Beyond the Geth, EDI is a prime example of free will. She is content with living amongst the organics on the Normandy - she gets into a relationship with an organic even, and on cold hard speculation alone I'm pretty sure there's no way for her to get some sort of physical pleasure out of it. IE: I don't think she's using Joker as some sort of boytoy for her own selfish needs.

So if EDI is capable of developing emotions that make her want to stay with Joker basically "just because lol" - why would any other organics, given free will, be any more volatile or dangerous than any other life in the galaxy?

Meanwhile on earth - humanity's history is one long chain of trying to wipe ourselves out. BUT HEY, SYNTHETICS ARE BAD GUYS THAT WILL KILL US ALL SOME DAY.

... wait.

[Hexley UK]

Gotta love this guy, tries to debunk a meme (LOL) and doesn't even do it that well.

As for the thought behind the meme answer me this -

Why not just kill all synthetics every cycle?

Modifié par Hexley UK, 28 mars 2012 - 02:25 .

[Bad King]

Tapkomet wrote...

Bad King wrote...


How do you know that the geth won't in time wipe out the quarians? Have you seen into the future of the Mass Effect universe? And if not the geth, then perhaps a more advanced AI created later by another species. As for the organics fed into the reapers, they are preserved: "We are each a nation." Reapers are made up of many voices of many individuals.

1. Geth simply wouldn't attack the Quarians. They have no reason to do so. They built a fleet to protect themselves, and were building a Dyson sphere for their own use. None of their actions had anything to do with wiping out Quarians.

2. Why would anyone create any more AIs? Do they never learn? It is also illegal.

3. Reapers are made of voices of many individuals, most of which apparently like the idea of harvesting civilizations every 50k years and sleeping in Dark Space the rest of the time. Since the previous sentence doesn't make sense, it means that the organics preserved don't have free will (if they still have any kind of consciousness). Cool way of ascending.

Firstly, we don't fully understand how the geth think. Claiming that they simply won't attack the quarians is a leap of faith. AI creation is only illegal under the citadel council who have limited influence over the galaxy. Furthermore, lots of illegal AI research could be conducted in secret (see the Alliance and Cerberus). There are many reasons for creating AI- use in warfare, transhumanism etc. and there are many and will be many more organic civilisations that will want to create AI (considering only 1% of the galaxy has been charted and there are billions of years of political change facing the galaxy).

[Militarized]

Bad King wrote...

It is pretty lame, but it was established as canon as far back as ME2 that the reapers consisted of many individuals merged together as one. They are changed somewhat, but we don't know to what degree they were changed, perhaps certain elements of their peoples were preserved within the reapers: we have no way of knowing.

That's part of why the ending is so bad... I understand using DNA from a species to run the ship along with synthetics.. like a blend of both but the brain being synthetic code but it uses the analogy of the "Nation". Or whatever.  Like you said, that sounds fine because they're behavior can be explained with the Reaper code, etc... but...

All that goes out the window at the end of ME3 though... the sky wizard says he CONTROLS them, which means they literally have no free will. They are puppets on a string with, as I said, a VI with a megalomania personality. Embarassing... 

Modifié par Militarized, 28 mars 2012 - 02:28 .