385 réponses à ce sujet

[Farbautisonn]

"When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you" sort of thing perhaps.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
In regards to this whole "black or white" argument lets have a bit of a "ruthless calculus" argument.

You would agree that there are indeed actions that are purely "white" or "black"? For instance, killing a young child for no reason is black and helping an old lady across the street is white?

Right?

-Killing a child for no reason, sure, if done by a legally sane person, would be black. Not pitch black, because there are fates that are considerably worse, even if a vic survives.

Helping an old woman across the street white? Not really. I think that falls under "common curtesy" or light gray akin to letting an elderly, disabled, pregnant or injured person have your seat in the bus. White would be the man or woman who takes a child that is not his/her own, adopts it and cares for it as if it had been her own.  "Whiter" at least.

I know Im nitpicking a bit, but Ive written whitepapers on torture in sub-sahara once. The only things in man I know to be limitless are ambition and hate.

You left out imagination and kindness.

My point is that if you can make the case for singular white and black actions you can make the case for moralities of black and white.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

"When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you" sort of thing perhaps.

Only if you belive in such nonsense.

That abyss does have a bottom you know. Even black holes have an end.

[Hunter of Legends]

And stop with that "comparative evils" logic.

If you speed and get caught but an officer it is irrelevent that someone else is speeding faster than you. You still did wrong.

[Farbautisonn]

[quote]Hunter of Legends wrote...
You left out imagination and kindness.[/quote]
-No. Not really.

[/quote]
My point is that if you can make the case for singular white and black actions you can make the case for moralities of black and white.
[/quote]
-I didnt. I made the case for shades of black and white. You made the case for absolutes. I did not.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

"When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you" sort of thing perhaps.

Only if you belive in such nonsense.

That abyss does have a bottom you know. Even black holes have an end.

-History would like to prove you wrong. We are quite imaginative when it comes to inflicting pain and war upon eachother. I dont believe for a second we have seen "the worst" yet. We have seen "the worst till now".

[Hunter of Legends]

[quote]Farbautisonn wrote...

[quote]Hunter of Legends wrote...
You left out imagination and kindness.[/quote]
-No. Not really.

[/quote]
My point is that if you can make the case for singular white and black actions you can make the case for moralities of black and white.
[/quote]
-I didnt. I made the case for shades of black and white. You made the case for absolutes. I did not.

[/quote]

There are no shades of black and white.

As I mentioned above, simply because someone else is doing "eviler/gooder" actions out there doesn't make your action any less evil/good.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

"When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you" sort of thing perhaps.

Only if you belive in such nonsense.

That abyss does have a bottom you know. Even black holes have an end.

-History would like to prove you wrong. We are quite imaginative when it comes to inflicting pain and war upon eachother. I dont believe for a second we have seen "the worst" yet. We have seen "the worst till now".

Then you are purely being cynical.

History would say otherwise, and I should know; I've studided quite alot of it.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

And stop with that "comparative evils" logic.

If you speed and get caught but an officer it is irrelevent that someone else is speeding faster than you. You still did wrong.

-Sure its "wrong". But so is shoplifting a 2cent lolly even if youre a child.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Then you are purely being cynical.

History would say otherwise, and I should know; I've studided quite alot of it.

-Really? Prove me wrong.

[Farbautisonn]

Even "good people" are capable of commiting evil and aiding criminality for the "greater good"... or the good of someone they love.

[The Razman]

I was actually sad they took the Illusive Man down the route of being indoctrinated and thus doing what he did because he was being controlled, rather than making him more like Wallace Breen from Half Life 2 ... a misguided individual who had really deluded himself into believing that he was being noble and acting in humanity's best interests.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Then you are purely being cynical.

History would say otherwise, and I should know; I've studided quite alot of it.

-Really? Prove me wrong.

You are arguing that our collective evils are getting worse; but what you don't realize is the world has gotten bigger and therefor our actions are magnitudes greater than those of a Knight in the Crusades or a Chinese famer in the Ming Dynsasty. In fact, I'd argue are ability to do "evil" has been greatly hampered because with inventions like the T.V. and internet we "see" evil and don't like it. Remember, Evil is naturally self-destructive and abbhorant to any normal human therefor it is safe to say "learning" of it would cause great distress and backlash against it.

Here is a more "calculus" example; say for instance you have two "universe". In one there is an Earth with just 1,000 people all scattered about and ignorant of one another (call this universe A). In another, we have a more modern Earth with billions of people more wise and knowing of one another (call this universe .

Now, in both universe lets say they have the invention of the gun. They are ignorant of it's use and what it does and so they "test it". In universe A since they are all scatered and dispersed we give out mulitple guns. They each use it; the chances of hitting someone are less likely since there are so few people in the world. BUT since they are spread out and ignorant of one another they know not the lesson of the gun and therefor this "evil" act is commited several times over and several people die. Horrible.

Now, in Universe B there are many people all connected and knowing of one another; guns are passed out and since there are so many more people they recognize this and know that others have this wierd things called a gun. Now one individual shoots this weapon; the chance to hit someone is now MUCH higher and the damage greater since there are so many more people however now each of them hear the news of this deadly weapon and now fear to use it. Less people die in this world because they now know what this gun does and that it is not a toy to be used willy nilly. One act of "evil" is committed so  that it doesn't happen again.

Now of course this is a rough draft but I hope you see what I am doing. History does in fact repeat itself but this does not mean to the most finite detail. It only means pattarns arise out of history.

Humans being inharrently evil is not one of those. Finding greater ways to kill each other is simply due to the escalation of greater scope of the "world".

You fail to see we are several times more reluctant to use said greater weapons because we know how horrible they are.

Modifié par Hunter of Legends, 30 mars 2012 - 06:50 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Even "good people" are capable of commiting evil and aiding criminality for the "greater good"... or the good of someone they love.

Ahh yes, and I never debated that.

You see, I have come to the rather socratic line of thought that ignorance is the greatest evil of mankind.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

And stop with that "comparative evils" logic.

If you speed and get caught but an officer it is irrelevent that someone else is speeding faster than you. You still did wrong.

-Sure its "wrong". But so is shoplifting a 2cent lolly even if youre a child.

Yes, but the child doesn't know what he is doing is wrong.

The adult who just shot someone does.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

You are arguing that our collective evils are getting worse; but what you don't realize is the world has gotten bigger and therefor our actions are magnitudes greater than those of a Knight in the Crusades or a Chinese famer in the Ming Dynsasty. In fact, I'd argue are ability to do "evil" has been greatly hampered because with inventions like the T.V. and internet we "see" evil and don't like it. Remember, Evil is naturally self-destructive and abbhorant to any normal human therefor it is safe to say "learning" of it would cause great distress and backlash against it.

-Id argue not. Because even after the holocaust and its "first" of industrialized genocide and "no more" there are still mass murders, ethnic purges etc, even despite "television". Evil is naturally self destructive? How so? Where? In the states perhaps? Or other places?  And who is a "normal" human being? If anything televison and the internet has served to desentize us.

Here is a more "calculus" example; say for instance you have two "universe". (snip)
Now of course this is a rough draft but I hope you see what I am doing

 
-Nope. Did not. Found your hypothetical situation too hypothetical.

It only means pattarns arise out of history.

-Thats what I am argueing. As as the means to become progressively more murderous and vile are enhanced, so is the chance of something like the holocaust happening again. That scares the ****** out of me.

Humans being inharrently evil is not one of those. Finding greater ways to kill each other is simply due to the escalation of greater scope of the "world".

-I dont think humans are inheritly evil. I think we look out for ourselves and our ofspring first. I think we act "human". We have so far. I dont think thats going to change anytime soon.

You fail to see we are several times more reluctant to use said greater weapons because we know how horrbile they are.

-The greatest weapon of mass destruction today is the assultrifle. Im not worried about the nukes or superweapons because all it takes for mass murder is a well funded demagogue and an armsdealer. And for all our percieved "goodness" we dont care. I present Africa.. Many times the number that died in the camps of National socialism has died in africa since ww2 due to small arms. Many times the horrors have been inflicted there by force of small arms too. You'll have to excuse me for not really having that much faith in humanity.

[Parmida]

He's evil in a good way...I like the guy.
He's the kind of the guy who does great evil deed for the greater good, and *spoiler ahead* control was the most paragon ending, and I chose that.
This option would not have been available without the necessary evil in the sanctuary.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Yes, but the child doesn't know what he is doing is wrong.

The adult who just shot someone does.

-Not nessesarily. And then I havent even brought in the "usual suspects".

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...
 You'll have to excuse me for not really having that much faith in humanity.

I can't excuse you, because things will change.

We introduced tanks to cave men and that is what you get in Africa. They'd be killing each other with sticks and stone either way.

Do you know WHY those things are happening?

[Naughty Bear]

Parmida wrote...

He's evil in a good way...I like the guy.
He's the kind of the guy who does great evil deed for the greater good, and *spoiler ahead* control was the most paragon ending, and I chose that.
This option would not have been available without the necessary evil in the sanctuary.

I would of destroyed, even if it did destroy my cycle. It would give future species a chance, better my own cycle to die and be the final one than the cycle to continue.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 30 mars 2012 - 07:22 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Yes, but the child doesn't know what he is doing is wrong.

The adult who just shot someone does.

-Not nessesarily. And then I havent even brought in the "usual suspects".

That case is muddled in alot of things and I have retracted my earlier beliefs until further information is provided.

[Hunter of Legends]

I see where you are coming from but I feel you are incorrect in your views. Ignorance is the only thing holding humanity back right now.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...
I can't excuse you, because things will change.

-How so? When? 

We introduced tanks to cave men and that is what you get in Africa. They'd be killing each other with sticks and stone either way.

-Yep. But we also introduced penecillin and DDT to nuke the mosqitoes.

Do you know WHY those things are happening?

-Because power, strategic resources, lust, avarice, ambition, hate, culture, religion? Take your pick.

Modifié par Farbautisonn, 30 mars 2012 - 07:31 .

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

That case is muddled in alot of things and I have retracted my earlier beliefs until further information is provided.

-I dont see its muddled at all. The guy thinks he was justified. Others think not.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
I can't excuse you, because things will change.

-How so? When? 

We introduced tanks to cave men and that is what you get in Africa. They'd be killing each other with sticks and stone either way.

-Yep. But we also introduced penecillin and DDT to nuke the mosqitoes.

Do you know WHY those things are happening?

-Because power, strategic resources, lust, avarice, ambition, hate, culture, religion? Take your pick.

1.
I can't tell you when because then I'd be nostra... you get the point. I can tell you how; through education and uplifting of the human mind.

2.
Those things also cause more problems, DDT kills the environment and penecillin is creating resistent bacteria.

3.
Because Europeans created and perpetuated the cycle. It will end one day.