385 réponses à ce sujet

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

That case is muddled in alot of things and I have retracted my earlier beliefs until further information is provided.

-I dont see its muddled at all. The guy thinks he was justified. Others think not.

There are details arising that paint the case in a different light. Time will tell which circumstance is correct.

In one instance he is justified, in the other he is an ignorant fool.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...
1.
I can't tell you when because then I'd be nostra... you get the point. I can tell you how; through education and uplifting of the human mind.

-Then I dont undestand how you can claim with such certainty that things will change. I dont think education helps much.

2.
Those things also cause more problems, DDT kills the environment and penecillin is creating resistent bacteria.

-Thats not the point. The point is we butted in. We disturbed the "natural order" of things. In the name of the "greater good". The greater good didnt care about Irrigation, infrastructure or educattion first. We saved people only to let them die of something else. Hunger, disease, war... "Good" has cost africa more than most people care to face

3.
Because Europeans created and perpetuated the cycle. It will end one day.

-I see very little evidence to that fact. And even if Europe has been very good at peddling our guns, values and our narrative, people were killing themselves and their neighbors long before we arrived.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

There are details arising that paint the case in a different light. Time will tell which circumstance is correct.

In one instance he is justified, in the other he is an ignorant fool.

-He is not the only example... or there would be no law to protect him.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
1.
I can't tell you when because then I'd be nostra... you get the point. I can tell you how; through education and uplifting of the human mind.

-Then I dont undestand how you can claim with such certainty that things will change. I dont think education helps much.

2.
Those things also cause more problems, DDT kills the environment and penecillin is creating resistent bacteria.

-Thats not the point. The point is we butted in. We disturbed the "natural order" of things. In the name of the "greater good". The greater good didnt care about Irrigation, infrastructure or educattion first. We saved people only to let them die of something else. Hunger, disease, war... "Good" has cost africa more than most people care to face

3.
Because Europeans created and perpetuated the cycle. It will end one day.

-I see very little evidence to that fact. And even if Europe has been very good at peddling our guns, values and our narrative, people were killing themselves and their neighbors long before we arrived.

1.
Because evidence shows that with education and a strong mind such horrible instances are less likely to appear.

2.
I have seen no "good" things cost Africa anything. This will lead me to my third and final point.

3.
European influences in the slave trade is what has cost Africa near everything. They had societies and culture before Europe "raped" the land and created their own order. Their self interest led to the current status of Africa as hell.

It will fix in time, but European dominance in the region did not in fact have a postivie effect.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

There are details arising that paint the case in a different light. Time will tell which circumstance is correct.

In one instance he is justified, in the other he is an ignorant fool.

-He is not the only example... or there would be no law to protect him.

Again, the details are muddled. We have two different accounts of the story, and that law only pertains to those who feel threatend. Being african american and wearing a hoody is not a reason to feel threatend.

[Sbri]

To get off specifics for just a moment, and to be sure that we're all still on the same page, would I be correct in stating that our current debate is a) What TIM did was a justified action and whether or not actions that might be considered "evil" or "bad" are ever the correct course of action? Are there other points I am missing?

BTW - Hi again

[Sbri]

Farbautisonn wrote...

-If there are indeed such blacks and whites they are insignificant in "mass" (no pun intended) compared to gray. There are rarely events or things that are so bad that they arent good for someone. If youre a bit of a cynic that is.

But to justify a "black" course of action by stateing that "someone will benifit" means that any action can be justified, no matter how horrific.  If the only measuring stick is "someone benifits" what is to stop anyone from doing whatever they want?  Is there any action that is then "bad"?

[Hunter of Legends]

Sbri wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

-If there are indeed such blacks and whites they are insignificant in "mass" (no pun intended) compared to gray. There are rarely events or things that are so bad that they arent good for someone. If youre a bit of a cynic that is.

But to justify a "black" course of action by stateing that "someone will benifit" means that any action can be justified, no matter how horrific.  If the only measuring stick is "someone benifits" what is to stop anyone from doing whatever they want?  Is there any action that is then "bad"?

Actually from certain points of view yes, others no.

Objectively speaking there are black actions.

[Sbri]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Objectively speaking there are black actions.

I agree. I'm just curious what the other side will say.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...
1.
Because evidence shows that with education and a strong mind such horrible instances are less likely to appear.

-Evidence prz. Also define "strong mind".

2.
I have seen no "good" things cost Africa anything. This will lead me to my third and final point.

-Really? The introduction of western medicine in africa didnt lead to overpopulation, disease, hunger or anything else. Gotcha.

3.
European influences in the slave trade is what has cost Africa near everything. They had societies and culture before Europe "raped" the land and created their own order. Their self interest led to the current status of Africa as hell.

It will fix in time, but European dominance in the region did not in fact have a postivie effect.

-Aw... please.  I dont think so. At all. Slavery existed well before the Europeans arrived, and continues to this day. Wiping it off on "colonial europeans" is cheap and inaccurate.

European and western aid to africa during the last half a century has been purpetrated by "good people". To the point where african economists have told us to litterally ****** off because it was ineffective and kept africans in a vicious circle. 

Im sorry. Good people have done more harm to africa than most realize.

[Farbautisonn]

Sbri wrote...

But to justify a "black" course of action by stateing that "someone will benifit" means that any action can be justified, no matter how horrific.  If the only measuring stick is "someone benifits" what is to stop anyone from doing whatever they want?  Is there any action that is then "bad"?

-I am not justifying it. Im saying someone can if someone wants to. Most of the horrors of this world are inflicted by people with "good intentions"... from their own point of view.

[rpgfan321]

In his own period of time and people, TIM was probably as much charismatic as Commander Shepard. Coming back to ME3, the actions that he chooses to do is very extreme and because they are extreme it is easy to place TIM in an evil light. His actions are staunchly opposed to Shepard's cause in every way possible, whether paragon, renegade, or mix. I think the correct term to describe the Illusive Man's role in the story is antagonist, not villain.

What his actions during game have shown is that the Illusive Man is a bit of a megalomaniac. He has a huge ego. But what he lacks and Shepard has is humility. No matter what Shepard's main purpose is to save the galaxy, but in my opinion, the Illusive Man's main objective, from the beginning, is the save Earth and human race. Shepard seeks to save the universe as the players know it.

The Illusive Man, no matter how grand of a scheme he tries to pull, his purpose will always be for one race and therefore a bit narrow-minded. It's not to say he is completely evil in a traditional sense, but that compared to the protagonist/the hero's purpose, his is much smaller and not encompassing to qualify as something heroic.

[Hogge87]

Another thing that bothered me about ME3.
While in ME2, it was open to interpretation and personal taste whether you like him (and Cerberus) or not, in ME3 he's painted out as purely evil.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
1.
Because evidence shows that with education and a strong mind such horrible instances are less likely to appear.

-Evidence prz. Also define "strong mind".

2.
I have seen no "good" things cost Africa anything. This will lead me to my third and final point.

-Really? The introduction of western medicine in africa didnt lead to overpopulation, disease, hunger or anything else. Gotcha.

3.
European influences in the slave trade is what has cost Africa near everything. They had societies and culture before Europe "raped" the land and created their own order. Their self interest led to the current status of Africa as hell.

It will fix in time, but European dominance in the region did not in fact have a postivie effect.

-Aw... please.  I dont think so. At all. Slavery existed well before the Europeans arrived, and continues to this day. Wiping it off on "colonial europeans" is cheap and inaccurate.

European and western aid to africa during the last half a century has been purpetrated by "good people". To the point where african economists have told us to litterally ****** off because it was ineffective and kept africans in a vicious circle. 

Im sorry. Good people have done more harm to africa than most realize.

I know slavery existed before Europeans, but they perpatuated it and worsened it. Had they not come in and did what they did Africa would not be in the state it is in now.

I know Good people have mistakeningly worsened Africans, but they have also made it better. Medicines that came did not create overpopulation and disease.

As for your evidence I'll PM some of it to you.

Modifié par Hunter of Legends, 30 mars 2012 - 09:20 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Sbri wrote...

But to justify a "black" course of action by stateing that "someone will benifit" means that any action can be justified, no matter how horrific.  If the only measuring stick is "someone benifits" what is to stop anyone from doing whatever they want?  Is there any action that is then "bad"?

-I am not justifying it. Im saying someone can if someone wants to. Most of the horrors of this world are inflicted by people with "good intentions"... from their own point of view.

Point of views can be wrong.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

I know slavery existed before Europeans, but they perpatuated it and worsened it. Had they not come in and did what they did Africa would not be in the state it is in now.

-Speculative. You dont know and have zero evidence to the fact and cannot provide me with any. The end.

I know Good people have mistakeningly worsened Africans, but they have also made it better. Medicines that came did not create overpopulation and disease.

-Aha. What would the birthrate and survival rate be in africa without western medicine do you think?

As for your evidence I'll PM some of it to you.

-If you dont mind, Ill take it here.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...
Point of views can be wrong.

-Sure. Especially when they arent founded in facts, evidence, sources, history, logic or deduction from empirical facts.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

I know slavery existed before Europeans, but they perpatuated it and worsened it. Had they not come in and did what they did Africa would not be in the state it is in now.

-Speculative. You dont know and have zero evidence to the fact and cannot provide me with any. The end.

I know Good people have mistakeningly worsened Africans, but they have also made it better. Medicines that came did not create overpopulation and disease.

-Aha. What would the birthrate and survival rate be in africa without western medicine do you think?

As for your evidence I'll PM some of it to you.

-If you dont mind, Ill take it here.

1.
Not really, many historians have pointed out what the Europeans did to African culture and society and how it weakend them further. It stiffled growth in other areas and completely re-wrote others. It led to the current situation Africa is in and has led to many problems for the region.

2.
They would simply have more children to compensate for the natural death rate.

3.

Of course, I wasn't sure if you want me to clog up the forums. That said I will gladly post my evidence and findings later tonight/tomorrow. I have class:crying:

I should go.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
Point of views can be wrong.

-Sure. Especially when they arent founded in facts, evidence, sources, history, logic or deduction from empirical facts.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

1.
Not really, many historians have pointed out what the Europeans did to African culture and society and how it weakend them further. It stiffled growth in other areas and completely re-wrote others. It led to the current situation Africa is in and has led to many problems for the region.

-Name these historians. Quote their works, link to their articles. Then provide evidence to the fact that any such thing would not have happened that the Europeans butted out.

2.
They would simply have more children to compensate for the natural death rate.

-There is a physical limit to how many children you can have... Especially if you risk death with each pregnancy.

3.

Of course, I wasn't sure if you want me to clog up the forums. That said I will gladly post my evidence and findings later tonight/tomorrow. I have class:crying:

I should go.

-"Clogging up the forums" wont happen as long as we keep it in one thread and provide sources in links such as I have. It hasnt happend so far, why would it happen now ? 

I do look forward to those sources. Thank you and have a good time at class

[Naughty Bear]

Hogge87 wrote...

Another thing that bothered me about ME3.
While in ME2, it was open to interpretation and personal taste whether you like him (and Cerberus) or not, in ME3 he's painted out as purely evil.

Blame poor writing. Cerberus and TIM could of been so much better IF the writer even tried to be creative.

The writer wanted a generic enemy, unfortunately Cerberus and TIM were caught in the firing line.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 30 mars 2012 - 09:40 .

[Farbautisonn]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Blame poor writing. Cerberus and TIM could of been so much better IF the writer even tried to be creative.

-I agree. For some reason we had to have cerberus as both indoctrinated slaves and as flipflopping incompetent idiots.

It would have been much more interesting to keep them on as the "dirty ally" or "They might be bastards but they are our bastards" bit.

[Naughty Bear]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Blame poor writing. Cerberus and TIM could of been so much better IF the writer even tried to be creative.

-I agree. For some reason we had to have cerberus as both indoctrinated slaves and as flipflopping incompetent idiots.

It would have been much more interesting to keep them on as the "dirty ally" or "They might be bastards but they are our bastards" bit.

Exactly my point. What is so ****ing hard to make this possible? Everything TIM does since ME3 is either screw things up or just do random evil crap just for the sake of being evil.

[Arkitekt]

Liara has a good line in the Cerberus ship mission, when she starts to think that she would probably do the same kinds of things that TIM is doing if she spent 30 years in a dark secretive organization trying to come up with a solution against the end of days.

They should have pressed harder in that exact point. Make TIM a character that could be sympathized with. Make Shepard choices of dialogue difficult to make when speaking to the guy, instead of resorting to the ME cliché of Paragon saying the same thing as Renegade "you are out of your mind". Create a difficult connundrum, just like in the Genophage.

For instance, one could reach a point where after being "trolled" by Kai Leng for two missions, one gets to TIM but learns that he is about to do something really important and good. However, the way that he is about to do it will cause suffering for people you care (for instance Miranda / Jacob) and perhaps a million more. What will Shepard do? On one hand, you have your friends and the disgusting solution that TIM comes up with, otoh you have the potential of saving billions of lives, a huge benefit against the reapers.

That kind of conflict would render TIM as a pragmatist evil bastard that was, despite all, on our side. What will you choose to do? If you choose your friends you will have to live with the consequence of billions of lives having been sacrificed. Not only for your friends, but for "Idealism", for the very idea of "humanity", etc.

Because there is no moral drama, TIM becomes a 2D villain and Kai Leng somewhat of a joke.

[Farbautisonn]

Arkitekt wrote...

Liara has a good line in the Cerberus ship mission, when she starts to think that she would probably do the same kinds of things that TIM is doing if she spent 30 years in a dark secretive organization trying to come up with a solution against the end of days.

They should have pressed harder in that exact point. Make TIM a character that could be sympathized with. Make Shepard choices of dialogue difficult to make when speaking to the guy, instead of resorting to the ME cliché of Paragon saying the same thing as Renegade "you are out of your mind". Create a difficult connundrum, just like in the Genophage.

For instance, one could reach a point where after being "trolled" by Kai Leng for two missions, one gets to TIM but learns that he is about to do something really important and good. However, the way that he is about to do it will cause suffering for people you care (for instance Miranda / Jacob) and perhaps a million more. What will Shepard do? On one hand, you have your friends and the disgusting solution that TIM comes up with, otoh you have the potential of saving billions of lives, a huge benefit against the reapers.

That kind of conflict would render TIM as a pragmatist evil bastard that was, despite all, on our side. What will you choose to do? If you choose your friends you will have to live with the consequence of billions of lives having been sacrificed. Not only for your friends, but for "Idealism", for the very idea of "humanity", etc.

Because there is no moral drama, TIM becomes a 2D villain and Kai Leng somewhat of a joke.

-bravo