385 réponses à ce sujet

[JBONE27]

Captian Cornhole wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Captian Cornhole wrote...
sure TIM has done bad stuff (no concentration camps mind you) but it was all to counter act the serious threat of the Reapers. The N-a-z-i-s did horrible stuff only to solidify their power base, and because they belived the racist lies.

You don't think much do you? Sanctuary was incredbily ridiculously obviously a concentration camp, in every single sense of the word. I am flabbergasted that anyone completed that mission and didn't immediatley think of a concentration camp.

And I'd like to point out the Cerberus is founded on racism. Utterly. He wanted to save Reaper tech so he could ascend humanity over everyone else.

If TIM has his own mind, I would place him as one of the top 5 most evil humans to ever live.

The difference between Sanctuary and the camps is that the people in there were not rounded up by force. On Sanctuary people came by choice, Cerberus didn't force them. Of course once they got there I'm sure they were not allowed to leave, but before the time they got turned into husks they had good living accomidations. Which is more then I can say for the victims of Hitler. Cerberus is founded on preserving humanity, preserving humanity isn't racism. The Salarians have their task group and the Asari have their comandos to help preseve their species.

I'm not saying there isn't racism inside of Cerberus. But the act of putting humanity first isn't racist. In the real world, if you wish for the best for your country would that be racist or bigoted? No of course not, as humans we have a need for self preservation, that is what TIM is doing, regaurdless of his means. So unless you regaurd self preservation as racist wouldn't that make us all racist. And if were all racist, then your argument against TIM doesn't have a leg to stand on.

And btw, just think about all the stuff and advancements we could learn from the Reapers. To say what TIM would have done with the Reapers if he would have had his way is all speculation. But the potential for humanity and other species though controlling and learning from them would be huge.

Okay, so TIM's not like Hitler.  He's like Elizabeth Bathory.  He lured people to this place under false pretenses and then turned them into something that would make him more powerful.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I agree. I hated how the Intimidate at the end of the game was insulting TIM for being power-hungry. He never struck me as a man out for his personal gain. And even though I didn't like his plan to control the Reapers, I did believe that he was doing it for a good reason.

I actually would have liked this plot-line better if TIM were not indoctrinated. He really did not have to be either. I think the writers just wanted to make him seem tragic and heroic like that. Imagine if they made the player kill him, only to reveal he was right all along and his plan would have worked!

[justin_sayne1]

Naughty Bear wrote...
So if i sacrificed a million Humans to save billions of Humans, i am not Human?

Correct.  See?  You *can* learn.

[Lexa_]

I played the "Suicide Mission" again yesterday. And the whole time I was thinking " I wish I could like you, but you are sooo wrong". He really is an charismatic guy, with some good ideas but IF it was up to him, there wouldn't be joined forces. He would use the Reapers to wipe out every other species. Contradicting to my goal, unity and peace.

[chester013]

Captian Cornhole wrote...

MrGuse wrote...

Goebbels just wanted Germany best interests put forward. That doesn't make his actions any less evil.

Really your going to play the N-a-z-i card? In that case you might as well be comparing the Jews, and gypsys and homosexuals to the pure evil of the Reapers.

I'll cut directly to the point, sure TIM has done bad stuff (no concentration camps mind you) 

He's using a historical allegory to challenge the posistion of the OP, not saying he loves ****'s. They DID have Germany's best interests at heart, which they beleived was a noble goal, what they did made them evil, just like TIM.

And no concentration camps? Did you play though the sanctuary mission? Sure they wern't rounded up but they were lured there, which I think is actually a lot more sinister.

Modifié par chester013, 02 avril 2012 - 08:30 .

[justin_sayne1]

Arkitekt wrote...
Come on this is pure sophistry. You know what people mean when they say "the ends justify the means". They are rationalizing an action that may make you vomit today, but which could save millions tomorrow. This has nothing in common with "ridiculous". It's a very big dillemma that time and time again humans are confronted with.

The point Machiavelli (and every philosopher since and before) make is that the ends DO NOT justify the means, ever.  Slaughter to save?  War for peace?  This becomes Orwellian doublespeak.
(BTW, the "rediculous" comment was within the context of the ironic satyre, where you take the rediculous extreme to make your point.  I draw attention to this, because you either missed the point, failed to understand "ironic satyre" or just did not read my post very well.)

Arkitekt wrote... 
That's overreaching. Of course, the idea that TIM was already indoctrinated in Mass Effect 2 is, yes, ridiculous, since his main goal in that game is precisely to counter Harbingers' plans with the Collectors. This fact alone disproves that assumption. However, what happens to him is pretty straightforward (so much so in fact that it is quite boring), that he is so obsessed with finding a solution to control the immense power of the reapers that he gets "infected" along the way with indoctrination.

Since you seem to not want to read what has been written on the subject, allow me to point you to a summary:
http://www.newsarama...3-110707-1.html 
Most importantly:
"
Could Jack Harper have been indoctrinated, all the way back at the First Contact War's end? Yes"

 

Arkitekt wrote...  
Tell that to president Truman who decided to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or to the generals who decided to bomb Dresden to smithereen.

The USA President Truman is famously quoted as saying that he signed away his humanity when he signed those papers.  As opposed to the Japanese Emperor who celebrated the successful slaughter of Chinese.

[Han Shot First]

You know the old saying about the path to hell being lined with good intentions? That is pretty much the story of TIM's life.

That TIM's ultimate goal was defending what he saw as humanity's best interests, doesn't make him any less of an evil ******. He was willing to committatrocities to secure the advancement of humanity. In the end he wasn't all that different than Saren. The only difference between the two is that Saren was trying to futher what he saw as Turian interests, and that Saren enjoyed torturing and killing his enemies, whereas to TIM it is just business. I don't think he has an emotional reaction it either way.

The USA President Truman is famously quoted as saying that he signed away his humanity when he signed those papers. As opposed to the Japanese Emperor who celebrated the successful slaughter of Chinese.

Agreed.

While an artillery officer in the American army during the First World War, Truman's men began to cheer as American artillery was raining down on a German position, killing many of it's defenders. Truman chided them, "Don't cheer lads. Those boys are dying over there."

Modifié par Han Shot First, 02 avril 2012 - 08:36 .

[Lexa_]

Han Shot First wrote...

You know the old saying about the path to hell being lined with good intentions? That is pretty much the story of TIM's life.

That TIM's ultimate goal was defending what he saw as humanity's best interests, doesn't make him any less of an evil ******. He was willing to committatrocities to secure the advancement of humanity. In the end he wasn't all that different than Saren. The only difference between the two is that Saren was trying to futher what he saw as Turian interests, and that Saren enjoyed torturing and killing his enemies, whereas to TIM it is just business. I don't think he has an emotional reaction it either way.

But NOBODY asked him to do so. What if he accomplished his goals and absolutly nobody cares? Not one single human agrees with his new future for humanity? Would he get rid of them? Too many flaws, IMO.

[Han Shot First]

Lexa_ wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

You know the old saying about the path to hell being lined with good intentions? That is pretty much the story of TIM's life.

That TIM's ultimate goal was defending what he saw as humanity's best interests, doesn't make him any less of an evil ******. He was willing to committatrocities to secure the advancement of humanity. In the end he wasn't all that different than Saren. The only difference between the two is that Saren was trying to futher what he saw as Turian interests, and that Saren enjoyed torturing and killing his enemies, whereas to TIM it is just business. I don't think he has an emotional reaction it either way.

But NOBODY asked him to do so. What if he accomplished his goals and absolutly nobody cares? Not one single human agrees with his new future for humanity? Would he get rid of them? Too many flaws, IMO.

I wasn't defending TIM.

He is an evil bastard, even if he doesn't see himself as such. Besides, most evil people don't see themselves as evil. Hitler saw himself as Germany's messiah.

[Naughty Bear]

Lexa_ wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

You know the old saying about the path to hell being lined with good intentions? That is pretty much the story of TIM's life.

That TIM's ultimate goal was defending what he saw as humanity's best interests, doesn't make him any less of an evil ******. He was willing to committatrocities to secure the advancement of humanity. In the end he wasn't all that different than Saren. The only difference between the two is that Saren was trying to futher what he saw as Turian interests, and that Saren enjoyed torturing and killing his enemies, whereas to TIM it is just business. I don't think he has an emotional reaction it either way.

But NOBODY asked him to do so. What if he accomplished his goals and absolutly nobody cares? Not one single human agrees with his new future for humanity? Would he get rid of them? Too many flaws, IMO.

If Cerberus didn't help us, then nobody will. The Alliance allows the other species to walk all over us. Atleast Cerberus is trying to give us a decent footing.

I am sure everybody WOULD care if he did get control of the Reapers, every species would be worshipping us if we did get control

. Nobody agrees with him in the ME universe is because Cerberus is always branded a terrorist organization and if Cerberus did anything good, the Alliance takes the prize. If Cerberus ****s up it would be all over the extranet.

I doubt anyone in the ME universe would even believe that Cerberus were the main reason the Collectors were destroyed.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 02 avril 2012 - 08:50 .

[Han Shot First]

The only thing Cerberus got right is resurrecting Shepard and financing the mission to the Omega IV relay.

Other than that they're agenda sucks and they generally cause more harm than good for humanity.

[Lexa_]

TBH, I don't like how I repaid his absolute trust. Him and Cerberus, they could've been my strongest allies. I hate the Cerberus story-arc. They are made so absolute evil, really pointless evil. That you actually feel bad for them.

[Naughty Bear]

Lexa_ wrote...

TBH, I don't like how I repaid his absolute trust. Him and Cerberus, they could've been my strongest allies. I hate the Cerberus story-arc. They are made so absolute evil, really pointless evil. That you actually feel bad for them.

Blame bad writing, i also agree that they could be powerful allies.

[Dean_the_Young]

TIM? There was a guy who got called that from ME2, but he got replaced by a stupid-evil body-double in ME3.


The new one's a bit of a moron, really, complete with pointless villainous speeches to allow the protagonist to break free of his clutches. He even implants himself with Reaper tech with no clear need or reason in mind. The man completes an entire system for counter-controlling the effects of indoctrination... and then forefeits using it on himself, or even a proxy.

It's really, really stupid.




Of course, the attempts at further villifying him by making him hostile towards EDI were pretty petty-low as well.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 avril 2012 - 04:13 .

[jaza]

Mathias957 wrote...

"The end doesn't justify the means, if we loose our humanity in the process". Think Shepard says something similar during the 3rd game

Except the means DO justify the means.

[justin_sayne1]

jaza wrote...
Except the means DO justify the means.

I will assume you meant to say "
Except the ends DO justify the means. "

Why/How?

I will even set aside, for the moment, the BioWare official story arcs (books/comics) that demonstrate that TIM was indoctrinated BEFORE Cerberus, and that his plan to "control the Reapers" was a Reaper derived Red Herring (in game, ME3).

[Farbautisonn]

justin_sayne1 wrote...

jaza wrote...
Except the means DO justify the means.

I will assume you meant to say "
Except the ends DO justify the means. "

Why/How?

I will even set aside, for the moment, the BioWare official story arcs (books/comics) that demonstrate that TIM was indoctrinated BEFORE Cerberus, and that his plan to "control the Reapers" was a Reaper derived Red Herring (in game, ME3).

-Because the ends have justified the means ever since day one in human history? 

[Arkitekt]

justin_sayne1 wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...
Come on this is pure sophistry. You know what people mean when they say "the ends justify the means". They are rationalizing an action that may make you vomit today, but which could save millions tomorrow. This has nothing in common with "ridiculous". It's a very big dillemma that time and time again humans are confronted with.

The point Machiavelli (and every philosopher since and before) make is that the ends DO NOT justify the means, ever.  Slaughter to save?  War for peace?  This becomes Orwellian doublespeak.
(BTW, the "rediculous" comment was within the context of the ironic satyre, where you take the rediculous extreme to make your point.  I draw attention to this, because you either missed the point, failed to understand "ironic satyre" or just did not read my post very well.)

I did not miss the point, I'm just amazed at your ways of thinking. War for peace is actually something that constantly happens. I'm not even debating that point, it seems ludicrous that someone would even think otherwise.

Since you seem to not want to read what has been written on the subject, allow me to point you to a summary:
http://www.newsarama...3-110707-1.html 
Most importantly:
"
Could Jack Harper have been indoctrinated, all the way back at the First Contact War's end? Yes"

Yes, he could but he wasn't. Spare me your condescension, I'm aware of all relevant facts here. You haven't squared the circle. The circle here is "TIM destroyed the collectors" and the square is "TIM is indoctrinated". It's impossible. Please be my guest and attempt it while I die in laughter.

 

The USA President Truman is famously quoted as saying that he signed away his humanity when he signed those papers.  As opposed to the Japanese Emperor who celebrated the successful slaughter of Chinese.

How poetic. Yet, he still did it, didn't he? If it was so inhuman, why did he do it? I can guess from your postings that you would be unable to ever make such a decision. And here, I am satisfied that you are not a leader.

[justin_sayne1]

Farbautisonn wrote...

justin_sayne1 wrote...

jaza wrote...
Except the means DO justify the means.

I will assume you meant to say "
Except the ends DO justify the means. "

Why/How?

I will even set aside, for the moment, the BioWare official story arcs (books/comics) that demonstrate that TIM was indoctrinated BEFORE Cerberus, and that his plan to "control the Reapers" was a Reaper derived Red Herring (in game, ME3).

-Because the ends have justified the means ever since day one in human history? 

Your circular argument is circular.

[Han Shot First]

TIM being indoctrinated before  Cerberus makes little sense to me.

If TIM was already under Reaper indoc in Mass Effect 2, why did he resurrect Shepard and why was he busy trying to stop the Collectors? We know that the Collectors were trying to obtain Shepard's body and were being actively guided by Harbinger, and that their plans were thwarted thanks to the efforts of Liara, TIM, Miranda, and Feron. If TIM was indoctrinated, why was he working against  Harbinger at this stage?

I don't have a problem with the reveal that TIM was indoctrinated in Mass Effect 3, I just have a problem with the timeline of his indoctrination. It would make more sense to have TIM become indoctrinated thanks to the remains of the human Reaper that was salvaged from the Collector Base. Having TIM become indoctrinated after the events of Mass Effect 2 doesn't introduce plot holes into the story of ME2.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 03 avril 2012 - 06:50 .

[Farbautisonn]

justin_sayne1 wrote...

Your circular argument is circular.

-I repeat. The ends have allways justified the means.

[Naughty Bear]

Farbautisonn wrote...

justin_sayne1 wrote...

Your circular argument is circular.

-I repeat. The ends have allways justified the means.

That Hiroshima video is a representation of what happens when someone posts their own opinion on the BSN.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 03 avril 2012 - 07:00 .

[Farbautisonn]

Naughty Bear wrote...

That Hiroshima video is a representation of what happens when someone posts their own opinion on the BSN.

-I thought it was just a youtube vid? 

[justin_sayne1]

Arkitekt wrote...

I did not miss the point, I'm just amazed at your ways of thinking. War for peace is actually something that constantly happens. I'm not even debating that point, it seems ludicrous that someone would even think otherwise.

"War for peace" is only a justification using flawed logic.  The closest history has to offer of that ACTUALLY occuring is Pax Romanus, where "peace" was achieved by crushing all oposition.

Yes, he could but he wasn't. Spare me your condescension, I'm aware of all relevant facts here. You haven't squared the circle. The circle here is "TIM destroyed the collectors" and the square is "TIM is indoctrinated". It's impossible. Please be my guest and attempt it while I die in laughter.

Feel free to laugh, but BioWare seems to disgree with you.  The ammusing point is "TIM destroyed the collectors".  When did this happen?  In ME2, we are presented with:
The collectors try to capture Shepherd, but accidentally kill him.
TIM brings Shepherd back, and convinces him to go to the collectors, repeatedly, including getting Shepherd ambushed.
Shepherd actually manages to defeate the collectors, so TIM wants to preserve their work, and keep it going.
End of ME2.

As for "TIM is indoctrinated", no offense, but I am going to believe BioWare over you on this one.  If nothing else, the conversation with Javik and the Prothean VI left no room for doubt that the source of what TIM is trying to do is the indoctrination.

How poetic. Yet, he still did it, didn't he? If it was so inhuman, why did he do it? I can guess from your postings that you would be unable to ever make such a decision. And here, I am satisfied that you are not a leader.

Agreed, he did, and he and his country are still reviled for it.

Since you are so fond of examples from the USA, let's take an example of two "leaders" for the same cause, the rights of their own people.  Malcolm X was a ruthless leader, and made many of the type of decission you espouse, believing that a civil war was inevitable and the only way to help his people. Dr. Martin Luther King, faced with the same situation, saw that violence would only beget violence, not peace.  History has told us who was the better leader. 

[justin_sayne1]

Farbautisonn wrote...

justin_sayne1 wrote...

Your circular argument is circular.

-I repeat. The ends have allways justified the means.

Repeating yourself does not make any better of an answer to question "Why/How?"
It just sounds like you are repeating propoganda without really understanding it.