385 réponses à ce sujet

[Farbautisonn]

justin_sayne1 wrote...
Repeating yourself does not make any better of an answer to question "Why/How?"
It just sounds like you are repeating propoganda without really understanding it.
 

-Really? Im not being propagandistic. Because after the assults on Iwo Jima etc and the costs of taking a few puny islands, plus the situation vs the russians, I undestand very well the "why". The "how" however isnt really up for debate.

The end justified the means. Just as it allways has.

Modifié par Farbautisonn, 03 avril 2012 - 10:24 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

justin_sayne1 wrote...

Your circular argument is circular.

-I repeat. The ends have allways justified the means.

For whom though?

Those means and ends are highly subjective.

[justin_sayne1]

Farbautisonn wrote...

justin_sayne1 wrote...
Repeating yourself does not make any better of an answer to question "Why/How?"
It just sounds like you are repeating propoganda without really understanding it.
 

-Really? Im not being propagandistic. Because after the assults on Iwo Jima etc and the costs of taking a few puny islands, plus the situation vs the russians, I undestand very well the "why". The "how" however isnt really up for debate.

The end justified the means. Just as it allways has.

The statement "The ends justify the means" is propoganda.  I disagree that it ever has.  As I said above, the statement comes from Machiavelli, who coined it in a piece of satyre called "The Prince".

 If you want to turn this discussion to WWII, it could have just as easily (and less painfully) ended via a blockade of Japan, as the Allied forces had resources and Japan had none, but the USA decided to test out stolen German technology that they did not understand, and see if that would end it.  People in the USA should remember that, if those German scientists had not been ... "liberated" when they were, WWII could have ended with that same bomb having been dropped on their nation.

However, none of this relates to "The Illusive Man".  Some one politely pointed out that not everyone has Javik as a companion.  Here is the scene to which I have reffered: 
The Prothean VI explains that in each cycle, there will be someone under indoctrination who wants to undermine the effort of the Crucible by wanting to control the reapers.  It was why the Protheans did not deploy the Crucible.

[Cadence of the Planes]

I love the Illusive man - great, complex villain who isn't just the cliched pure evil.

[Farbautisonn]

justin_sayne1 wrote...

The statement "The ends justify the means" is propoganda.  I disagree that it ever has.  As I said above, the statement comes from Machiavelli, who coined it in a piece of satyre called "The Prince".

 If you want to turn this discussion to WWII, it could have just as easily (and less painfully) ended via a blockade of Japan, as the Allied forces had resources and Japan had none, but the USA decided to test out stolen German technology that they did not understand, and see if that would end it.  People in the USA should remember that, if those German scientists had not been ... "liberated" when they were, WWII could have ended with that same bomb having been dropped on their nation.

However, none of this relates to "The Illusive Man".  Some one politely pointed out that not everyone has Javik as a companion.  Here is the scene to which I have reffered: 
The Prothean VI explains that in each cycle, there will be someone under indoctrination who wants to undermine the effort of the Crucible by wanting to control the reapers.  It was why the Protheans did not deploy the Crucible.

-Political science major here, mid east special, minor in rhetoric. I know my Machiavelli. And trust me, whilst Machiavelli did in some likelyhood write it as satire, it wasnt treated as satire. The Medicis in particular didnt see it as satire. And from the way they acted and employed the lessons put forward by Machiavelli, the book might as well have been a blueprint for cutthroat italian politics rather than "ho-hum" sacarsm.

I dont think its propaganda. Quite on the contrary I find historybooks full of examples to exemplify that those of power and those who seek it will do most anything to further their cause and their ambition. Even if it means expending horrendeous ressources and human lives in the pursuit. And even if people do not agree with the methods they are very willing to reap the benefits of the methods employed.

Its not a ww2 discussion. Its a discussion on history. As for what "stolen knowledge" they tested I do not know what you refer to. The Manhatten Project was the brainchild of a number of scientists from all over the world. My contryman Niels Bohr participated.

I know that the bombs were tested both to give the russians pause, and to save thousands of american lives. But that came at a cost.

I find it very much relates to TIM. In ME2 he is very much the epitomy of "the ends justifies the means". In me3 he is reduced to a steriotypical two dimensional villain and an incompetent and illogical one of the kind. Sad, because TIM could have had serious potential to be an interesting character, but I suppose it was too easy to cast him as villain.

[OmegaXI]

I was willing to give TIM a chance for helping me out in ME2 but after all the stuff he pulled during the war and his mass murder factory I knew I was going to put him down once and for all.

[justin_sayne1]

@Farbautisonn - Well spoken, even if I disagree with you.
As to "The Prince", it was in the 18th century that the full value of its comical irony was noted by Jean-Jacques Rousseau. It is likely that it was written about the Medici rather than for the Medici. If you compare it to Discourses on Livy, I believe the satire of the first becomes more obvious.

I agree that history is full of people who use the phrase to justify their actions, but I disagree that it IS justification, and consider the phrase propaganda.

The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was developed only with key scientist who were kidnapped from Germany. They had been working on such a bomb to be dropped on the USA. The timing of their removal from Germany was key to prevent such a bomb from being used against the Allied forces. And their contribution to the Allied effort was critical to having a working bomb to drop on Hiroshima. I suspect that this piece of the conversation thread will become a very easy target for nationalized opinions, though. None of those who were there are still alive, and, even though I could, for instance, say that I have worked with Dr. Oppenheimer's son, there will always be things about this that we don't know/can merely speculate upon.

BACK TO TIM: I completely agree. If I were playing ME3 as my introduction to the ME universe, TIM would be a huge "HUH?" It is a shame that I have had to play the other games, and read books and comics, to understand who a character is and get any depth from him.

[tusing]

 I can't agree more with OP. I'm apalled at the idiots who play the game and take TIM for a black-and-white villain. You really have to be stupid to not have respect for the guy.

Also, ENDS justify MEANS, ALWAYS! I wouldn't mind blowing up a planet or two, or turning a few million people into husks to save the galaxy. Also, one can argue that Renegade Shepard is worse than TIM.

Modifié par tusing, 04 avril 2012 - 01:25 .

[finc.loki]

Captian Cornhole wrote...

I think alot of us here are too quick to judge the Illusive Man's character and portray him as one of those "black and white" villains that are evil for the sake of being evil.

However, in my personal opinion this couldn't be further from the truth. The Illusive Man's goal was to "always put humanity first", now alot of the time it looked like his only motives were to gain power for himself. Which often did happen as a result from his actions, but I think of it more as a side effect from his true motives, which is humanity first. I think alot of us view TIM as a liar cause we don't see how he is improving humanity through his actions, so we instinctively go to the default assertion that TIM is just a power hungry chain smoker. After all he is the guy who wanted to control the Reapers right?

The bottom line is that The Illusive Man isn't that much different then Shepard. They both want to save humanity, bu any means possible. All the Illusive Man's actions; Overlord, Lazarus, the Pragia Facility, attacking Grissom, turning his soilders into husks, processing civilians into husks and all the other nasty **** he has done has in most cases led to some breakthough that can better humanity. Even Commander Shepard's decisions have backfired on him/her, (look at the Rachni or roles you can place squadmembers in the suicide mission) TIM and Shepard are just doing what they think is right.

Obviously the TIM is cruel and ruthless, but also can the same be said for Commander Shepard? I would say so. After all  don't ends justify the means, do they not? What is the loss of a few million people if you can save the galaxy from the Reapers? Yeah, it's tragic. But it would have worked, TIM would have controlled the Reapers if he wouldn't have gotten himself indoctrinated first. He was right all along, even Shepard has the option to control the Reapers.

In the end, The Illusive Man can be much more of a jerk then Commander Shepard, but they are nearly the same in regaurds to their goals for stopping Harbinger and his pals.

I'm sure Hitler thought the same way you do about illusive man about himself.

Seriously,
no man thinks himself evil, in their own mind they are doing it "for a
good reason", they even know that it is nasty, but they think it is for
the "greater good".

Illusive man was exactly like a Hitler,  he  rounded up millions of people and aliens to be experimented on into
husks etc and otherwise turned into FRICKEN PASTE (how is that not
exactly like the concentration death camps with the gas chambers and furnaces?) at "sanctuary".

He wanted to control the reapers so he could subjugate the whole galaxy to his will and have the all do his will.

Nooooo, he's not evil at all... a regular saint.  :innocent:

tusing wrote...

 I can't agree more with OP. I'm apalled
at the idiots who play the game and take TIM for a black-and-white
villain. You really have to be stupid to not have respect for the guy.

Also,
ENDS justify MEANS, ALWAYS! I wouldn't mind blowing up a planet or two,
or turning a few million people into husks to save the galaxy. Also, one can argue that Renegade Shepard is worse than TIM.

So you think the same of Hitler then?

In Hitlers mind, it was "Ends justify the means" as well. He wanted to be rid of the Jews cause they were successful and it bothered the ordinary Germans that didn't have it as "well", also he put a lot of Germans to work (most were unemployed), he wanted to create "lebensraum" which means more livable space, IE take other countries. Over 40 million people died cause of his and the **** parties ideas. A total of 65 million including the pacific war.

I mean honestly, it's a little bit sickening you calling US idiots yet this probably never even entered your mind...

How about I pose this question for you...
So would it be OK to slaughter your whole family ( lets say 20 people)  if it means to save 50 other persons?

I mean they are a larger group than your family , right? So to save them the "Ends justify the means" for a "greater good of 30 more people get to live"..

Think before you post.

Illusive man might have been interesting and yes at times his goals seem admirable but when you find out just how OUT OF HIS MIND he was in ME3, than he went from "NOT black and white villan" to a complete utter black and white villan.

This actually makes it even harder, now knowing what he did with those people and then go back and play ME2.
It feels like working for Hitler.

The ****s did a lot of research too in the concentration camps some where actually useful "end results" but the way they went about getting that result spells out "experimenting on humans", One name comes to mind:

Dr. Mengele.

Modifié par finc.loki, 04 avril 2012 - 01:42 .

[tusing]

finc.loki wrote...

Captian Cornhole wrote...

I think alot of us here are too quick to judge the Illusive Man's character and portray him as one of those "black and white" villains that are evil for the sake of being evil.

However, in my personal opinion this couldn't be further from the truth. The Illusive Man's goal was to "always put humanity first", now alot of the time it looked like his only motives were to gain power for himself. Which often did happen as a result from his actions, but I think of it more as a side effect from his true motives, which is humanity first. I think alot of us view TIM as a liar cause we don't see how he is improving humanity through his actions, so we instinctively go to the default assertion that TIM is just a power hungry chain smoker. After all he is the guy who wanted to control the Reapers right?

The bottom line is that The Illusive Man isn't that much different then Shepard. They both want to save humanity, bu any means possible. All the Illusive Man's actions; Overlord, Lazarus, the Pragia Facility, attacking Grissom, turning his soilders into husks, processing civilians into husks and all the other nasty **** he has done has in most cases led to some breakthough that can better humanity. Even Commander Shepard's decisions have backfired on him/her, (look at the Rachni or roles you can place squadmembers in the suicide mission) TIM and Shepard are just doing what they think is right.

Obviously the TIM is cruel and ruthless, but also can the same be said for Commander Shepard? I would say so. After all  don't ends justify the means, do they not? What is the loss of a few million people if you can save the galaxy from the Reapers? Yeah, it's tragic. But it would have worked, TIM would have controlled the Reapers if he wouldn't have gotten himself indoctrinated first. He was right all along, even Shepard has the option to control the Reapers.

In the end, The Illusive Man can be much more of a jerk then Commander Shepard, but they are nearly the same in regaurds to their goals for stopping Harbinger and his pals.

I'm sure Hitler thought the same way you do about illusive man about himself.

Seriously,
no man thinks himself evil, in their own mind they are doing it "for a
good reason", they even know that it is nasty, but they think it is for
the "greater good".

Illusive man was exactly like a Hitler,  he  rounded up millions of people and aliens to be experimented on into
husks etc and otherwise turned into FRICKEN PASTE (how is that not
exactly like the concentration death camps with the gas chambers and furnaces?) at "sanctuary".

He wanted to control the reapers so he could subjugate the whole galaxy to his will and have the all do his will.

Nooooo, he's not evil at all... a regular saint.  :innocent:

The flaw in your argument: TIM is saving the galaxy. Hitler was simply expanding his nation.

If saving the galaxy meant sacrificing a few million people, I would do it without hesitation. If it meant to sacrifice a few more to put humanity in control of the galaxy, why the hell not?

[finc.loki]

tusing wrote...

finc.loki wrote...

Captian Cornhole wrote...

I think alot of us here are too quick to judge the Illusive Man's character and portray him as one of those "black and white" villains that are evil for the sake of being evil.

However, in my personal opinion this couldn't be further from the truth. The Illusive Man's goal was to "always put humanity first", now alot of the time it looked like his only motives were to gain power for himself. Which often did happen as a result from his actions, but I think of it more as a side effect from his true motives, which is humanity first. I think alot of us view TIM as a liar cause we don't see how he is improving humanity through his actions, so we instinctively go to the default assertion that TIM is just a power hungry chain smoker. After all he is the guy who wanted to control the Reapers right?

The bottom line is that The Illusive Man isn't that much different then Shepard. They both want to save humanity, bu any means possible. All the Illusive Man's actions; Overlord, Lazarus, the Pragia Facility, attacking Grissom, turning his soilders into husks, processing civilians into husks and all the other nasty **** he has done has in most cases led to some breakthough that can better humanity. Even Commander Shepard's decisions have backfired on him/her, (look at the Rachni or roles you can place squadmembers in the suicide mission) TIM and Shepard are just doing what they think is right.

Obviously the TIM is cruel and ruthless, but also can the same be said for Commander Shepard? I would say so. After all  don't ends justify the means, do they not? What is the loss of a few million people if you can save the galaxy from the Reapers? Yeah, it's tragic. But it would have worked, TIM would have controlled the Reapers if he wouldn't have gotten himself indoctrinated first. He was right all along, even Shepard has the option to control the Reapers.

In the end, The Illusive Man can be much more of a jerk then Commander Shepard, but they are nearly the same in regaurds to their goals for stopping Harbinger and his pals.

I'm sure Hitler thought the same way you do about illusive man about himself.

Seriously,
no man thinks himself evil, in their own mind they are doing it "for a
good reason", they even know that it is nasty, but they think it is for
the "greater good".

Illusive man was exactly like a Hitler,  he  rounded up millions of people and aliens to be experimented on into
husks etc and otherwise turned into FRICKEN PASTE (how is that not
exactly like the concentration death camps with the gas chambers and furnaces?) at "sanctuary".

He wanted to control the reapers so he could subjugate the whole galaxy to his will and have the all do his will.

Nooooo, he's not evil at all... a regular saint.  :innocent:

The flaw in your argument: TIM is saving the galaxy. Hitler was simply expanding his nation.

If saving the galaxy meant sacrificing a few million people, I would do it without hesitation. If it meant to sacrifice a few more to put humanity in control of the galaxy, why the hell not?

ZERO flaw in my argument, only difference is that mine takes place here on earth, a smaller stage but still the same.

Also he didn't "sacrifice people" he EXPERIMENTED AND TOURTURED THEM AND HAD A KILLING FACTORY ON SANCTUARY ON HORIZON...

Sacrificing is when you have to choose between something. CLEARLY there was other ways to go about it, did you play the game or not? I recall Shepard found other ways.

Also, why does HUMANITY be the ones that "control the galaxy"? Can't humanity work with others like they did at the end of the game?
Shall we enslave the rest of the galaxy to our will, and this would not makes us the " the Hitlers of the galaxy" how?
Would it be equally Ok with you if the Turians sacrificed Humanity and made us slaves by controlling the reapers ala illusive mans plan to put forth the turians as the supreme beings of the galaxy.

Exactly...

I understand sacrifices to save the galaxy, even when they are bad like the " arrival DLC and the Batarians".
But that is a no choice option given the circumstances and as I recall Shepard didn't tourture them first and made them into husks in "concentration type camps ala Horizon/sanctuary"...

Illusive man went too far. He didn't try and help with all his resources and forces to aid the galaxy overall. No he did it ALWAYS in the mind of HUMANS ruling and controlling the galaxy.
He didn't even see the threat of all of the galaxy being wiped out and thinking that instead of his dastardly master plan to be the master race, he should have " for the greater good" helped out the alliance and the other galaxy species with what he knew.

He wanted to be the one controlling the reapers remember, not someone else, but HIM.

He couldn't relinquish his power and need to be the "man at the top", to save humanity any other way than HIM being the man in charge.
He spared no expense at experimenting with humans and killing them left and right by the millions for HIS greater good of being the "god that controls the power of the Reapers"...

You really buy into his speeches don't you, LOL....

I could also agree (without torture and experimentation) that in order ( if by no other choice, repeat NO other choice) to save the galaxy some humans on a colony had to be sacrificed I can understand it and see it as a necessary evil.

BUT, you then go on saying " killing a few more MILLION humans" so that humanity can then RULE the galaxy is OK by you, is to me quite sickening.
That is EXACTLY something Hitler would say and do.

Did humans have it bad in ME galaxy if no reapers existed? No not at all, in fact Humans had in less than 50 years time expanded more than any other species in the galaxy and almost controlled a 5th of it in terms of area of space.
They even outmanuvered the Batarians that were there first. Earth looked really nice and we had tons of colonies.
But you want to kill a few more humans if it meant using the Reapers as some kind of tool to kill and control other Aliens so we can rule the galaxy.

Wow, just wow.

I rest my case.

Modifié par finc.loki, 04 avril 2012 - 02:15 .