385 réponses à ce sujet

[Farbautisonn]

Tirigon wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Lulz... "the card" pulled in post 3.

But rightfully so. TIM is really kind of space-hitler, with the only difference being that he likes all humans and not just some of them.

I do not agree. He isnt actively pursuing the destruction of several races or species. He is prepared to do whatever it takes to save his own. Semantics to most people perhaps, but it really is a question of beating unsurmountable odds: 37million years of culling the heard vs 50k years of haphazard evolvement. I would get really crap odds at my bookie.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

I always found it kinda weird as a paragon Shepard to keep b---ching about the ends not justifying the means when you killed tens of thousands of batarians yourself.

[admcmei]

Captian Cornhole wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Captian Cornhole wrote...
sure TIM has done bad stuff (no concentration camps mind you) but it was all to counter act the serious threat of the Reapers. The N-a-z-i-s did horrible stuff only to solidify their power base, and because they belived the racist lies.

You don't think much do you? Sanctuary was incredbily ridiculously obviously a concentration camp, in every single sense of the word. I am flabbergasted that anyone completed that mission and didn't immediatley think of a concentration camp.

And I'd like to point out the Cerberus is founded on racism. Utterly. He wanted to save Reaper tech so he could ascend humanity over everyone else.

If TIM has his own mind, I would place him as one of the top 5 most evil humans to ever live.

The difference between Sanctuary and the camps is that the people in there were not rounded up by force. On Sanctuary people came by choice, Cerberus didn't force them. Of course once they got there I'm sure they were not allowed to leave, but before the time they got turned into husks they had good living accomidations. Which is more then I can say for the victims of Hitler. 

Are you... serious?
Cerberus is evil because it uses evil methods and wants humanity to dominate other races, some arguments I'm readin are goddamn disturbing on a real world level. Seriously. You guys are freaking me out

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Arkitekt wrote...

MrGuse wrote...

They didn't give me a choice not to, did they?

*FACEDESK*

Did you really went there?

Uh yeah... because they didn't give him a choice. Bad enough that a substandard DLC played such an important role and is for all intents and purposes canon...

[Arkitekt]

MrGuse wrote...

Oh for God's sake. In a full game, Shepard would have spent 10 hours trying to figure out how to stop the Reapers without destroying the system. In Arrival, they gave you 1 option and then tried to set up a scenario where it would be justified.

You were railroaded into a choice with your only moral option being to warn them 4 minutes before their doom.

So you are actually saying that killing 300 000 batarians can actually be justifiable.

Just after implying that no one could actually argue for TIM's actions.

OKAAAY

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

But T.I.M isn't evil enough! He should rape random women and eat children for breakfast to be considered villain by me!

Indoctrination theory is antic and scoff!
(thanks to google translate helped me on these words!)

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Zubi Fett wrote...

MrGuse wrote...

Oh for God's sake. In a full game, Shepard would have spent 10 hours trying to figure out how to stop the Reapers without destroying the system. In Arrival, they gave you 1 option and then tried to set up a scenario where it would be justified.

You were railroaded into a choice with your only moral option being to warn them 4 minutes before their doom.

-edit-

-So... you would have NOT blown up the relay? 

Very admirable,
and actually that would have made for a very nice beginning for ME3. "A
galaxy in cinders, pls reload another character".

Thinking about it, how would it have changed the beginning of the game at all? It's not like the time you bought earth really amounted to much.

There where only few hours left for the return of the reapers, not much time to think.

You guys are missing the real rub here. It's pointless to discuss the DLC through in-universe logic since BioWare (the authors) could always justify it on their own grounds. The issue is having BioWare set up a scenario where you're given 'no choice' in the first place.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

[double post]

Modifié par Fisto The Sexbot, 28 mars 2012 - 04:09 .

[Arkitekt]

Oh look TIM also never had any choice, since he was designed by BW as he was!!! OMG that means he is as evil as Shepard!! #inanereasoningsaboundhere

[Mylia Stenetch]

Also for the topic on hand. TIM is not "evil" is one of the antagonists of the game. That does not make him inherently evil. As stated in ME2 he would do anything to make sure the human race survives the Reaper invasion.

He goal was to harness the power of the reapers to fight back against them to save humanity. The way he went through with it are designed not to fully gel with Shepard. He puts you into moral conflicts which question how the protagonist should do this and if it is morally "right".

At the end he found his vision (through being indoctrinated) to save humanity and stop the cycle. Which in the barest sense is what Shepard also want. What antagonizes Shepard to go against him is he is using the approach sacrifice a couple save a thousand, through experimentation on other people human and alien alike to control the reaper. Both Paragon and Renegade Shepard are against this because it is against the morals they each have.

[Tirigon]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Problem with "paragon/renegade" is both that its not really either, and that it reeks of symbolism for "good and bad". Plus the way the choises are worded are usually hamfisted and ignorant on the renegade side whilst somewhat more intelligent and elequant on the other.

Take Jacks quest where you save that guy who wants to restart teltin. You let him go. Is that really a "paragon" choise? You let a guy go who is hellbent on starting a Mengele-esque medical facility. Even if we blow up the facility we have zero guarantee that he wont restart elsewhere. We are basically writing out cheques that other children like Jack has to cash.

And the dialogue option is some vile and crude "Kill him, you're evil, its who you are`?" Really?

How about the slightly more intelligent and correct: "We cant let him live. He will restart somewhere else causing the precise same pain to other kids. If you dont kill him, I will".

That's true.

Another problem, though admittedly that was partially removed in ME3, is Paragon / renegade score being coupled with persuasion.

If you take a sensible approach and pick the more fitting response rather than blindly "I am paragon I need top choice" or "I am Renegade, bottom it is", you are punished by possibly missing on dialogue options which, in ME2, might even cost you the loyalty of your squad and thus kill people in the suicide mission.

[aj2070]

Captian Cornhole wrote...


Lol, judging by your responce it sounded very bigoted, drawing a comparison like that. Cause that what your doing isn't it? And that isn't just for Germany, that goes for the victims of any regime. 

And if your regering to Horizon/Sanctuary, that was a processing center not a camp.

Must have missed the "experiments" in the basement with refugees...

[Mylia Stenetch]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Uh yeah... because they didn't give him a choice. Bad enough that a substandard DLC played such an important role and is for all intents and purposes canon...

I guess you skipped over my original post you had eh?

[MrGuse]

Arkitekt wrote...

MrGuse wrote...

Oh for God's sake. In a full game, Shepard would have spent 10 hours trying to figure out how to stop the Reapers without destroying the system. In Arrival, they gave you 1 option and then tried to set up a scenario where it would be justified.

You were railroaded into a choice with your only moral option being to warn them 4 minutes before their doom.

So you are actually saying that killing 300 000 batarians can actually be justifiable.

Just after implying that no one could actually argue for TIM's actions.

OKAAAY

The bold and caps really makes your statement stand out. Thanks for that.

You actually managed to read the complete opposite of what I said. I said they "tried to set up a scenario where it would be justified." I didn't say they succeeded and the rest of my post would tend to suggest I'm not happy about the scenario.

Troll harder.

[Tirigon]

Farbautisonn wrote...

I do not agree. He isnt actively pursuing the destruction of several races or species. He is prepared to do whatever it takes to save his own. Semantics to most people perhaps, but it really is a question of beating unsurmountable odds: 37million years of culling the heard vs 50k years of haphazard evolvement. I would get really crap odds at my bookie.

But really what is the point of saving people from being harvested and turned into Reapers or husks if the means to that end is... turning people into husks?

That's like shooting your family so the enemy doesnt shoot them (which coincidentally is something many high-ranked N@zi officials did at the end of WW2).

The only difference is that TIM is probably doing that sh!t only because of indoctrination.

[Blackmind1]

"You think that because I utilise the same tactics as my enemy, they aren't my enemy. You couldn't be further from the truth."

[Arkitekt]

MrGuse wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

MrGuse wrote...

Oh for God's sake. In a full game, Shepard would have spent 10 hours trying to figure out how to stop the Reapers without destroying the system. In Arrival, they gave you 1 option and then tried to set up a scenario where it would be justified.

You were railroaded into a choice with your only moral option being to warn them 4 minutes before their doom.

So you are actually saying that killing 300 000 batarians can actually be justifiable.

Just after implying that no one could actually argue for TIM's actions.

OKAAAY

The bold and caps really makes your statement stand out. Thanks for that.

You actually managed to read the complete opposite of what I said.

I said they "tried to set up a scenario where it would be justified." I didn't say they succeeded and the rest of my post would tend to suggest I'm not happy about the scenario.

Troll harder.

Very well. So you would agree with me that Shepard is actually a worse villain than TIM then?

[Captian Cornhole]

aj2070 wrote...

Captian Cornhole wrote...


Lol, judging by your responce it sounded very bigoted, drawing a comparison like that. Cause that what your doing isn't it? And that isn't just for Germany, that goes for the victims of any regime. 

And if your regering to Horizon/Sanctuary, that was a processing center not a camp.

Must have missed the "experiments" in the basement with refugees...

And you must have missed the part where I called in a processing center? What the hell do you think they were processing? 

[Father_Jerusalem]

Hitler: Thought one group was pure. Actively slaughtered everyone he thought was impure in order to preserve the purity of the one group.

TIM: Thought one group was pure. Actively... worked with people who he thought were impure... in order to preserve the purity of the one group.

Other than the minimal difference between "slaughter" and "worked with", I can absolutely see the comparison.

Look, were TIM's methods extreme? OF COURSE. Nobody will debate that. But he was willing to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING it took to preserve humanity - he wasn't rounding up Asari and Turians to stick them in concentration camps because they were "lesser" than humans. He didn't like them, sure, but he still recognized the value of working with them and exploiting their technology.

Come on, if TIM were "Space-Hitler", would he really make half your crew in ME2 be "impure" aliens? Really?

TIM = Extreme and Megalomaniacal to be sure, but "evil"? Ehhhhh... debatable.

[kalle90]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Come on, if TIM were "Space-Hitler", would he really make half your crew in ME2 be "impure" aliens? Really?

TIM = Extreme and Megalomaniacal to be sure, but "evil"? Ehhhhh... debatable.

QFT.

On top of that in ME3 it becomes obvious every race is only looking after themselves. Hackett wants you to get help no matter what and from there on every race is looking after themselves first, others come if there's time. There are plenty of people who threaten with wars against other races once Reapers are dealt with, or threaten with consequences if you help a certain race.

Atleast TIM never states he actually wants to kill every alien. He wants humans to be above or atleast on par with the others. When you look at how council races built their dominance yet are incapable in many ways I can't blame him for wanting to resuffle the deck. Without him the war and every race would have been lost at ME2.

If we take that want for unity without second agenda as a criteria for "good" person, there are like 10 good people in the galaxy. Even most squadmates are willing to push someone from the team under a train. That's grey morality.

Modifié par kalle90, 28 mars 2012 - 05:16 .

[ShinsFortress]

Captian Cornhole wrote...

MrGuse wrote...

Goebbels just wanted Germany best interests put forward. That doesn't make his actions any less evil.

Really your going to play the N-a-z-i card? In that case you might as well be comparing the Jews, and gypsys and homosexuals to the pure evil of the Reapers. I hope your not that would be very bigoted of you.

I'll cut directly to the point, sure TIM has done bad stuff (no concentration camps mind you) but it was all to counter act the serious threat of the Reapers. The N-a-z-i-s did horrible stuff only to solidify their power base, and because they belived the racist lies.

Multiple flawed logic.  But sure, just pick the bits that help put your view across if that keeps you calm and happy.

[Toyou4you]

I made a thread almost exactly like this before ME3, on a different account. Just saying, and shouldn't this be under spoilers. I feel like TIM crossed the line in 3 and paid to much to justify the means.

[Navasha]

Both TIM and Saren believed in a "by any means necessary" and "the ends justify the means" approach.

However, this is NOT the way my Shepard approaches things. If you lose all sense of what is "right" in the process, then the end is meaningless.

[MrGuse]

Arkitekt wrote...

Very well. So you would agree with me that Shepard is actually a worse villain than TIM then?

Well played. He would certainly be a war criminal.

[Naughty Bear]

Daforth wrote...

I never thought TIM's goals are evil (at least from human viewpoint), however his methods are.

I believe they were necessary. So what if one ONE man suffers torture and poor treatment? In the end, we get to control the Geth and save hundreds of lives with them.

TIM is one magnificent  bastard.

The ends justify the means is perfectly reasonable, i would do the same. Sacrifice a small colony to save a planet for example.

His goal and some of his methods are great. The children torture camp? No.

If Humanity was at risk of being attacked and i was the Illusive Man? I will do anything to save you all, i would not care sacrificing alien cities, i would protect you all at any cost. Not the indoctrinating my own soldiers part though.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 28 mars 2012 - 05:35 .