385 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Chewin3 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

It's not just the indoctrination part that makes him terrible, but to be honest, wanting to be implanted made me go "wuut". Though he wasn't anything impressive in ME2 either.

Bad writing. If Mass Effect 2 even had a decent and creative writer, he could of been decent.

Same could be said of a lot of things. But seriously, BW's writing has never been something to brag about, neither any of the antagonist (excluding Loghain and Architect).

What about Kai L... wait, I'm only one who thinks he's a good villain.

[Chewin]

Naughty Bear wrote...
He was indoctrinated himself.
Still indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated.
Pretty much everything on thay list was because of indoctrination.

The Prothean on Thessia even said their own people wanted to control the Reapers. That's indoctrination and TIM wanted to do the same.

Try again Alliance boy.

Which further proves how stupid the whole indoctrination thing is. Quality, BW.

And I'm not sure TIM was indoctrinated on early parts in the game (had some part of self control at least).

Mesina2 wrote...
What about Kai L... wait, I'm only one who thinks he's a good villain.

Oh, don't bring that clown in front of me!

Modifié par Chewin3, 28 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[Chewin]

DP.

Modifié par Chewin3, 28 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[Farbautisonn]

I think TIM was pisspoor handled in ME3 but then so was alot of things...

[Fixers0]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

 Let's see:

TIM is responsible for (only in ME3):

Indoctrinating his personel.
Attacking Alliance Forces on Eden Prime.
Attacking Alliance Forces on Mars.
Attacking Alliance Personel on the Citadel.
Attacking C-sec Personel on the Citadel.
Attacking Civilians on the Citadel.
Attacking Alliance Equipment and Personel on Ontarom.
An atempt to Assasinate the Citadel Council.
Attacking The Asari homeworld of Thessia.
Attacking the Salarian homeworld of Sur'kesh.
Attacking Civilians and Alliance Personel on Benning.
Atempting to abduct studens from Grissom Academy.
Attacking Alliance Fleets in the Horse-Head Nebula.
Murdering Refugees in Unethical experiments.
Violating the CDEM and illegaly occupying parts of Tuchanka, Noveria and Sanctum.
Attempting to provoke a War between the Krogan Clans and the Turian Hierarcy.
Attempting to execute and Alliance Admiral and Lieutenant Commander. 

And so goes the list on.

And you don't call that evil, don't make me laugh. 

He was indoctrinated himself.
Still indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated.
Pretty much everything on thay list was because of indoctrination.

The Prothean on Thessia even said their own people wanted to control the Reapers. That's indoctrination and TIM wanted to do the same.

Try again Alliance boy.

Being Indoctrinated is being evil in my book.

He was not himself, he was under the control of Reapers. He literally could not think for himself, everything the reapers wanted was correct and completely logical to him.

A indoctrinated Hanar wanted to hang over his homeworld to the Reapers because the indoctrination made him think it was the best idea.

Then when was he himself, if i may ask? if we have to believe those comic books he has been indoctrinated since the first contact war. 

[Naughty Bear]

Chewin3 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

It's not just the indoctrination part that makes him terrible, but to be honest, wanting to be implanted made me go "wuut". Though he wasn't anything impressive in ME2 either.

Bad writing. If Mass Effect 2 even had a decent and creative writer, he could of been decent.

Same could be said of a lot of things. But seriously, BW's writing has never been something to brag about, neither any of the antagonist (excluding Loghain and Architect).

I personally thought the first game had an amazing story, until i heard about Star Control 2.

The best thing about the entire Mass Effect world is the squad mate dialogue, their relationships with each other.

But if a more creative writer was involved than Drew or Mac, it could of been better. But we shall never know.

[Naughty Bear]

Fixers0 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

 Let's see:

TIM is responsible for (only in ME3):

Indoctrinating his personel.
Attacking Alliance Forces on Eden Prime.
Attacking Alliance Forces on Mars.
Attacking Alliance Personel on the Citadel.
Attacking C-sec Personel on the Citadel.
Attacking Civilians on the Citadel.
Attacking Alliance Equipment and Personel on Ontarom.
An atempt to Assasinate the Citadel Council.
Attacking The Asari homeworld of Thessia.
Attacking the Salarian homeworld of Sur'kesh.
Attacking Civilians and Alliance Personel on Benning.
Atempting to abduct studens from Grissom Academy.
Attacking Alliance Fleets in the Horse-Head Nebula.
Murdering Refugees in Unethical experiments.
Violating the CDEM and illegaly occupying parts of Tuchanka, Noveria and Sanctum.
Attempting to provoke a War between the Krogan Clans and the Turian Hierarcy.
Attempting to execute and Alliance Admiral and Lieutenant Commander. 

And so goes the list on.

And you don't call that evil, don't make me laugh. 

He was indoctrinated himself.
Still indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated.
Pretty much everything on thay list was because of indoctrination.

The Prothean on Thessia even said their own people wanted to control the Reapers. That's indoctrination and TIM wanted to do the same.

Try again Alliance boy.

Being Indoctrinated is being evil in my book.

He was not himself, he was under the control of Reapers. He literally could not think for himself, everything the reapers wanted was correct and completely logical to him.

A indoctrinated Hanar wanted to hang over his homeworld to the Reapers because the indoctrination made him think it was the best idea.

Then when was he himself, if i may ask? if we have to believe those comic books he has been indoctrinated since the first contact war. 

Just because your indoctrinated does not mean your immediately indoctrinated. There are stages.

Shiala might even be indoctrinated judging by the email we recieved from her, she hears whispers. A sign of indocrination but she is not fully being controlled.

That doctor on Virmire describes some of the stages, you start hearing whispers and further along the road you stat to think the Reapers are correct.

He was himself before Mass Effect 3 for sure, he could of easily sent Cerberus troops to Horizon to kidnap them after Shep had been there and captured the remaining colonists, but he didn't.

If he was fully indoctrinated before Mass Effect 3, he would of helped the Collectors and he would of done similiar actions to what in did from ME3 in ME2.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 28 mars 2012 - 06:24 .

[DeathScepter]

Farbautisonn wrote...

I think TIM was pisspoor handled in ME3 but then so was alot of things...

i do argee with you. I do actually like T.I.M. a lot then again I do like Saren too.

[Fixers0]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

 Let's see:

TIM is responsible for (only in ME3):

Indoctrinating his personel.
Attacking Alliance Forces on Eden Prime.
Attacking Alliance Forces on Mars.
Attacking Alliance Personel on the Citadel.
Attacking C-sec Personel on the Citadel.
Attacking Civilians on the Citadel.
Attacking Alliance Equipment and Personel on Ontarom.
An atempt to Assasinate the Citadel Council.
Attacking The Asari homeworld of Thessia.
Attacking the Salarian homeworld of Sur'kesh.
Attacking Civilians and Alliance Personel on Benning.
Atempting to abduct studens from Grissom Academy.
Attacking Alliance Fleets in the Horse-Head Nebula.
Murdering Refugees in Unethical experiments.
Violating the CDEM and illegaly occupying parts of Tuchanka, Noveria and Sanctum.
Attempting to provoke a War between the Krogan Clans and the Turian Hierarcy.
Attempting to execute and Alliance Admiral and Lieutenant Commander. 

And so goes the list on.

And you don't call that evil, don't make me laugh. 

He was indoctrinated himself.
Still indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated.
Pretty much everything on thay list was because of indoctrination.

The Prothean on Thessia even said their own people wanted to control the Reapers. That's indoctrination and TIM wanted to do the same.

Try again Alliance boy.

Being Indoctrinated is being evil in my book.

He was not himself, he was under the control of Reapers. He literally could not think for himself, everything the reapers wanted was correct and completely logical to him.

A indoctrinated Hanar wanted to hang over his homeworld to the Reapers because the indoctrination made him think it was the best idea.

Then when was he himself, if i may ask? if we have to believe those comic books he has been indoctrinated since the first contact war. 

Just because your indoctrinated does not mean your immediately indoctrinated. There are stages.

Shiala might even be indoctrinated judging by the email we recieved from her, she hears whispers. A sign of indocrination but she is not fully being controlled.

That doctor on Virmire describes some of the stages, you start hearing whispers and further along the road you stat to think the Reapers are correct.

And how does any of this proves TIM isn't a war criminal.

And who are you to grasp the infailable logic of Starchild.

Modifié par Fixers0, 28 mars 2012 - 06:25 .

[Naughty Bear]

Fixers0 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

 Let's see:

TIM is responsible for (only in ME3):

Indoctrinating his personel.
Attacking Alliance Forces on Eden Prime.
Attacking Alliance Forces on Mars.
Attacking Alliance Personel on the Citadel.
Attacking C-sec Personel on the Citadel.
Attacking Civilians on the Citadel.
Attacking Alliance Equipment and Personel on Ontarom.
An atempt to Assasinate the Citadel Council.
Attacking The Asari homeworld of Thessia.
Attacking the Salarian homeworld of Sur'kesh.
Attacking Civilians and Alliance Personel on Benning.
Atempting to abduct studens from Grissom Academy.
Attacking Alliance Fleets in the Horse-Head Nebula.
Murdering Refugees in Unethical experiments.
Violating the CDEM and illegaly occupying parts of Tuchanka, Noveria and Sanctum.
Attempting to provoke a War between the Krogan Clans and the Turian Hierarcy.
Attempting to execute and Alliance Admiral and Lieutenant Commander. 

And so goes the list on.

And you don't call that evil, don't make me laugh. 

He was indoctrinated himself.
Still indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated.
Indoctrinated.
Pretty much everything on thay list was because of indoctrination.

The Prothean on Thessia even said their own people wanted to control the Reapers. That's indoctrination and TIM wanted to do the same.

Try again Alliance boy.

Being Indoctrinated is being evil in my book.

He was not himself, he was under the control of Reapers. He literally could not think for himself, everything the reapers wanted was correct and completely logical to him.

A indoctrinated Hanar wanted to hang over his homeworld to the Reapers because the indoctrination made him think it was the best idea.

Then when was he himself, if i may ask? if we have to believe those comic books he has been indoctrinated since the first contact war. 

Just because your indoctrinated does not mean your immediately indoctrinated. There are stages.

Shiala might even be indoctrinated judging by the email we recieved from her, she hears whispers. A sign of indocrination but she is not fully being controlled.

That doctor on Virmire describes some of the stages, you start hearing whispers and further along the road you stat to think the Reapers are correct.

And how does any of this proves TIM isn't a war criminal.

Oh TIM is a war criminal alright, Cerberus is a terrorist organization for a reason. But he isn't downright evil, his goals are just, his methods are questionable. Even more questionable in ME3.

[Chewin]

Naughty Bear wrote...
I personally thought the first game had an amazing story, until i heard about Star Control 2.

It was good, but nothing unique in it self.

The best thing about the entire Mass Effect world is the squad mate dialogue, their relationships with each other.

ME is a character driven game to a huge part, and that is one reason to why I enjoy ME, the characters. Not that all of them are great per se, but they bring a certain kind of attachment to me.

But if a more creative writer was involved than Drew or Mac, it could of been better. But we shall never know.

Speculations sure are a great topic these days.

[Naughty Bear]

Chewin3 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...
I personally thought the first game had an amazing story, until i heard about Star Control 2.

It was good, but nothing unique in it self.

The best thing about the entire Mass Effect world is the squad mate dialogue, their relationships with each other.

ME is a character driven game to a huge part, and that is one reason to why I enjoy ME, the characters. Not that all of them are great per se, but they bring a certain kind of attachment to me.

But if a more creative writer was involved than Drew or Mac, it could of been better. But we shall never know.

Speculations sure are a great topic these days.

When ME1 was released, i thought it was amazing at that time. Better than the other games i played back then.

I agree, if there was one thing that Bioware succeeded at, it was the characters.

Oh yeah, can't get enough of speculation.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 28 mars 2012 - 06:28 .

[survivor_686]

It would seem that the Illusive Man is trying impose his will on humanity, and will kill anyone who disagrees with him. With the added bonus of causing more damage than good (Rachni escape and attack innocent worlds, Husks seem to have just been left behind, etc...)

In Mass Effect 1, you can see that he willingly turned innocent colonists into husks, just to see what would happen. He lures Alliance soldiers into death traps with Thresher Maws and then assassinates anyone whom investigates.

In Mass Effect 2, he tried to 'seduce' Shepard into working for him, by giving him a ship and at least one potential love interest (anyone else suspicious that Miranda wore a skinsuit? Even in a combat zone?). Of course during this time he encouraged an attitude of breaking the moral boundaries within his own scientists (Overlord project, Jack's kidnapping and torture). He also starts to believe that he is the true personification of an entire species ("Cerberus is humanity!")

In Mass Effect 3, he openly subjects his troops and innocent civilians to "huskification" whilst claiming that they'e the future of humanity. While showing no discernible combat improvement (by the end of the game you've killed at least a thousand Cerberus troops, with just two squadmates). And in what appears to be a mind boggling move, he implants himself with Reaper tech.

So yes The Illusive Man is evil. But he's also surprisingly incompetent at it.

[Harshfact]

That's the fun thing about TIM though... since the incident with his eyes and the reaper artifact you can never know how much indoctrinated is he and how much of that is himself or the reapers thinking.i don't think even in the ending it was made clear.. yes we did get confirmation, but we all know he was indoctrinated since the moment he touched Ben and the Reaper artifact, the question is how much indoctrinated was he

[Naughty Bear]

survivor_686 wrote...

It would seem that the Illusive Man is trying impose his will on humanity, and will kill anyone who disagrees with him. With the added bonus of causing more damage than good (Rachni escape and attack innocent worlds, Husks seem to have just been left behind, etc...)

In Mass Effect 1, you can see that he willingly turned innocent colonists into husks, just to see what would happen. He lures Alliance soldiers into death traps with Thresher Maws and then assassinates anyone whom investigates.

In Mass Effect 2, he tried to 'seduce' Shepard into working for him, by giving him a ship and at least one potential love interest (anyone else suspicious that Miranda wore a skinsuit? Even in a combat zone?). Of course during this time he encouraged an attitude of breaking the moral boundaries within his own scientists (Overlord project, Jack's kidnapping and torture). He also starts to believe that he is the true personification of an entire species ("Cerberus is humanity!")

In Mass Effect 3, he openly subjects his troops and innocent civilians to "huskification" whilst claiming that they'e the future of humanity. While showing no discernible combat improvement (by the end of the game you've killed at least a thousand Cerberus troops, with just two squadmates). And in what appears to be a mind boggling move, he implants himself with Reaper tech.

So yes The Illusive Man is evil. But he's also surprisingly incompetent at it.

If the Illusive Man managed to create something that can protect soldiers from Threshaw Maw poison, i'd say that was worth it.

He recovered Shepard remember? And because of him, Shepard managed to destroy the Collectors AND delay the Reapers by a year.

Overlord was interesting and it worked. That guy inside that machine was able to control the geth, it was a success. Shame the guy was mentally unstable but if that could be applied to commanders, those Geth soldiers could be used for war and no Human soldiers would be lost!

Jack's kidnapping was because a cell in Cerberus went rogue.

He subjected his troops and commited many atrocities in ME3 because he was fully indoctrinated. Not thinking for himself, he became a Human puppet and the Reapers was his puppeteer.

[Naughty Bear]

Harshfact wrote...

That's the fun thing about TIM though... since the incident with his eyes and the reaper artifact you can never know how much indoctrinated is he and how much of that is himself or the reapers thinking.i don't think even in the ending it was made clear.. yes we did get confirmation, but we all know he was indoctrinated since the moment he touched Ben and the Reaper artifact, the question is how much indoctrinated was he

There are stages. Whispers are first i think, he was definitely fully indoctrinated in ME3. It's not instant, Shepard would of been indoctrinated as soon as he saw Sovereign.

[admcmei]

BTW, motivations don't count for ****. It's the actions that make you good or evil, you know, in the real world. Motive is just one small part of a conviction, and it's mostly used just to reinforce guilt. Most dictators are actually convinced they're working for the good of their nation, just like TIM. This thread is scary.

[Naughty Bear]

admcmei wrote...

BTW, motivations don't count for ****. It's the actions that make you good or evil, you know, in the real world. Motive is just one small part of a conviction, and it's mostly used just to reinforce guilt. Most dictators are actually convinced they're working for the good of their nation, just like TIM. This thread is scary.

So if someone was dying and in pain, letting them live is the kindest act? Or what about putting a bullet in her/his head to end their pain and suffering?

What about that rocket on ME2 controlled by the Batarian terrorist? Use the kill switch to save colonists or use the kill switch to stop a industrial building that produces weaponry for the Alliance and would cripple them if it got destroyed?

Colonists can be replaced instantly.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 28 mars 2012 - 06:46 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

Harshfact wrote...

but we all know he was indoctrinated since the moment he touched Ben and the Reaper artifact, the question is how much indoctrinated was he

Which is just silly. If he were indoctrinated then, then why the haiiiil did the reapers allow him to revive Shepard?

[Naughty Bear]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Harshfact wrote...

but we all know he was indoctrinated since the moment he touched Ben and the Reaper artifact, the question is how much indoctrinated was he

Which is just silly. If he were indoctrinated then, then why the haiiiil did the reapers allow him to revive Shepard?

There are stages. Your not just instantely fully under the control of the Reapers. Whispers are a first sign.

Here is a small paragraph from the wikia:

"Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been Captain Kirrahe's men"

You need constant exposure. Which TIM succeeded in with literally placing a Reaper outside his door, after Mass Effect 2.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 28 mars 2012 - 07:00 .

[AkiKishi]

admcmei wrote...

BTW, motivations don't count for ****. It's the actions that make you good or evil, you know, in the real world. Motive is just one small part of a conviction, and it's mostly used just to reinforce guilt. Most dictators are actually convinced they're working for the good of their nation, just like TIM. This thread is scary.

A lot of dictators do work for the good of the nation. Just not for the people in the nation. It's very much like I said ealrlier that TIM cares more about the concept of humanity than about humans.

[Farbautisonn]

admcmei wrote...

BTW, motivations don't count for ****. It's the actions that make you good or evil, you know, in the real world. Motive is just one small part of a conviction, and it's mostly used just to reinforce guilt. Most dictators are actually convinced they're working for the good of their nation, just like TIM. This thread is scary.

-Thats one hell of a claymore you're yielding there...

[Dave of Canada]

TIM was indoctrinated before ME2 when he implanted himself with Reaper tech, they didn't want any quality writing in ME3 and decided to go with "INDOCTRINATION LOL, CERBERUS IS TOTALLY EVIL".

Most people don't mind, they just wanted an excuse to shoot Cerberus troops. Poor writing be damned.

[Harshfact]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Harshfact wrote...

but we all know he was indoctrinated since the moment he touched Ben and the Reaper artifact, the question is how much indoctrinated was he

Which is just silly. If he were indoctrinated then, then why the haiiiil did the reapers allow him to revive Shepard?

Like Naughty Bear explained there are stages, and i think TIM was never THAT exposed so even till the end he kept bits of himself still going which made him an even more unique character grey-wise but then again that's just me and i can't force you to see it any other way .

[Harshfact]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TIM was indoctrinated before ME2 when he implanted himself with Reaper tech, they didn't want any quality writing in ME3 and decided to go with "INDOCTRINATION LOL, CERBERUS IS TOTALLY EVIL".

Most people don't mind, they just wanted an excuse to shoot Cerberus troops. Poor writing be damned.

Wasn't that moments before the ME3 ending ? or did i miss something ?