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The Illusive Man isn't as evil as we make him out to be. *Spoilers*


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#151
Naughty Bear

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Random Jerkface wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Harshfact wrote...

but we all know he was indoctrinated since the moment he touched Ben and the Reaper artifact, the question is how much indoctrinated was he

Which is just silly. If he were indoctrinated then, then why the haiiiil did the reapers allow him to revive Shepard?


There are stages. Your not just instantely fully under the control of the Reapers. Whispers are a first sign.

Here is a small paragraph from the wikia:

"Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been Captain Kirrahe's men"

You need constant exposure. Which TIM succeeded in with literally placing a Reaper outside his door, after Mass Effect 2.

I know that. But if TIM was indoctrinated as early as Ben, then one must imagine that the reapers have been incubating his mind for quite some time. If he started to do something foolish like, say, reviving the human who thwarted their plans, SURELY the reapers would have the intelligence to either exert greater control over him or kill him themselves.


Like i said, you need constant exposure, like literally sleep next to the damn thing. From the comics and the game minus ME3. TIM was not actively standing next to a Reaper or something similiar.

Since he revived Shepard, he must of not been fully under their control at the beginning of ME2 and after it as he did help destroy the Collectors, i doubt the Reapers would of wanted him to do that. That Collector ship could of been used during the assault on Earth along wth Collector soldiers and the Human Reaper being part of the leading force.

#152
Harshfact

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Random Jerkface wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Harshfact wrote...

but we all know he was indoctrinated since the moment he touched Ben and the Reaper artifact, the question is how much indoctrinated was he

Which is just silly. If he were indoctrinated then, then why the haiiiil did the reapers allow him to revive Shepard?


There are stages. Your not just instantely fully under the control of the Reapers. Whispers are a first sign.

Here is a small paragraph from the wikia:

"Rana Thanoptis, an asari neuroscientist on Virmire, goes into more detail. She describes indoctrination as a subtle whisper you can't ignore, that compels you to do things without knowing why. Over days, perhaps a week of exposure to Sovereign's signal, the subject stops thinking for themselves and just obeys, eventually becoming a mindless servant. That was the fate of Rana's predecessor, who became her first test subject, and the captured salarians who had once been Captain Kirrahe's men"

You need constant exposure. Which TIM succeeded in with literally placing a Reaper outside his door, after Mass Effect 2.

I know that. But if TIM was indoctrinated as early as Ben, then one must imagine that the reapers have been incubating his mind for quite some time. If he started to do something foolish like, say, reviving the human who thwarted their plans, SURELY the reapers would have the intelligence to either exert greater control over him or kill him themselves.


Reapers have never failed once, ONCE in dozens of cycles.. why should they start caring now? they did notice shep to some extent and therefore saw them worthy of their first and full attack , if i were reapers i'd be pretty confident. they did take their times centuries in the last cycle and did the job and if you actually take the Crucible out of equation, TIM's way was the only logical way to stop the Reapers, do any of you think we could have beaten the Reapers with the tech that the current cycle had? we couldn't take down one of them in ME 1, surely if you think about it you would agree with him to some extent

#153
What a Succulent Ass

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Except Harbinger went out of his way to kill Shepard. That was ME2's entire opening sequence. It's obvious Shepard was, in fact, deemed a threat. If one of your idiot thralls is trying to bring back the only stumbling block in the history of your long existence, it would behoove you to stop it.

#154
What a Succulent Ass

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Hunter of Legends wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

His goal is certainly noble.

His goal involves subjugating other species, so no, I wouldn't call that noble.


Where on earth did you hear this?

Not once did TIM discuss or decide to enslave the other species.

Enslave, no. Dominate, yes.


Then he is nothing more than a human centralist.

There is nothing evil about that.

Then we're obviously going to have to disagree, seeing as how his doctrine smacks of real world racist ideology.

#155
Harshfact

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Random Jerkface wrote...

Except Harbinger went out of his way to kill Shepard. That was ME2's entire opening sequence. It's obvious Shepard was, in fact, deemed a threat. If one of your idiot thralls is trying to bring back the only stumbling block in the history of your long existence, it would behoove you to stop it.


But wasn't shep send there due to dissappearence of many ships and such ? i'm not saying you're wrong but i never assumed the attack was personally directed towards shep i just though Normandy was another ship to fall in the series of others but more as a bonus

#156
Hunter of Legends

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Random Jerkface wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

His goal is certainly noble.

His goal involves subjugating other species, so no, I wouldn't call that noble.


Where on earth did you hear this?

Not once did TIM discuss or decide to enslave the other species.

Enslave, no. Dominate, yes.


Then he is nothing more than a human centralist.

There is nothing evil about that.

Then we're obviously going to have to disagree, seeing as how his doctrine smacks of real world racist ideology.


Actually his idealogy is more akin to nationalistic pride or patriotism than racism.:)

#157
What a Succulent Ass

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Harshfact wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Except Harbinger went out of his way to kill Shepard. That was ME2's entire opening sequence. It's obvious Shepard was, in fact, deemed a threat. If one of your idiot thralls is trying to bring back the only stumbling block in the history of your long existence, it would behoove you to stop it.


But wasn't shep send there due to dissappearence of many ships and such ? i'm not saying you're wrong but i never assumed the attack was personally directed towards shep i just though Normandy was another ship to fall in the series of others but more as a bonus

Nope. If Harbinger weren't personally gunning for Shepard (or did not deem Shepard a threat), he wouldn't have spent so much effort in trying to secure Shepard's body so as to ensure her/his death (or whatever else was planned). If Shepard were not taken seriously, there would be no need for this. Nor would there be a need for I WILL DIRECT THIS PERSONALLY.

The entire thing is just idiotic.

#158
Corbinus

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Lets see..
TIM goal - human dominance.
Now, why is it the humans must dominate? Are we better then any other race? Do we have any right for it? Nope, we dont. Human dominance is bull**** and reeks of racism.
TIM's methods? Evil, no doubts of it.
So yep, he is evil.
He also has a HUGE ego, because he thinks he can control Reapers against their will (so please, dont bring up Blue Ending here). Turns out he can't.
So TIM was evil by his own free will, became indoctrinated evil, and died.
Good riddance, TIM.

#159
What a Succulent Ass

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Hunter of Legends wrote...

Actually his idealogy is more akin to nationalistic pride or patriotism than racism.:)

It's far more extreme than that. He proposes that humanity, as a new species, should tip the the galaxy's power in its favour by cowering the other races with superior technology. This necessitates the belief that humans have a right to power--power over other species, not just agency. There is a distinct disconnect.

And anyway, extreme nationalism is nearly just as dangerous, and TIM actively recruits subordinates with anti-alien attitudes. Idiots like the BNP thrive on similar strategies.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 28 mars 2012 - 08:11 .


#160
Harshfact

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Random Jerkface wrote...

Harshfact wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Except Harbinger went out of his way to kill Shepard. That was ME2's entire opening sequence. It's obvious Shepard was, in fact, deemed a threat. If one of your idiot thralls is trying to bring back the only stumbling block in the history of your long existence, it would behoove you to stop it.


But wasn't shep send there due to dissappearence of many ships and such ? i'm not saying you're wrong but i never assumed the attack was personally directed towards shep i just though Normandy was another ship to fall in the series of others but more as a bonus

Nope. If Harbinger weren't personally gunning for Shepard (or did not deem Shepard a threat), he wouldn't have spent so much effort in trying to secure Shepard's body so as to ensure her/his death (or whatever else was planned). If Shepard were not taken seriously, there would be no need for this. Nor would there be a need for I WILL DIRECT THIS PERSONALLY.

The entire thing is just idiotic.


I assume this was exolained in the comics and backstory ? well i guess he wanted some shep flesh juice for the human reaper so he would be a part of it ? :D

#161
Naughty Bear

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Corbinus wrote...

Lets see..
TIM goal - human dominance.
Now, why is it the humans must dominate? Are we better then any other race? Do we have any right for it? Nope, we dont. Human dominance is bull**** and reeks of racism.
TIM's methods? Evil, no doubts of it.
So yep, he is evil.
He also has a HUGE ego, because he thinks he can control Reapers against their will (so please, dont bring up Blue Ending here). Turns out he can't.
So TIM was evil by his own free will, became indoctrinated evil, and died.
Good riddance, TIM.


Who wouldn't want to see their species be dominant? Would you want your own species to literally be the Vorcha of the galaxy? The vermin of the galaxy? A species of living breathing jokes?

#162
What a Succulent Ass

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I believe it was more fleshed out in the comics (and partially in the LotSB DLC). Harbinger made a deal with the Shadow Broker in order to track Shepard's remains. Liara manages to thwart these efforts with the help of Mac Walters and Cerberus, and despite the help of her incompetent sidekick, Feron.

#163
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Naughty Bear wrote...

Who wouldn't want to see their species be dominant? Would you want your own species to literally be the Vorcha of the galaxy? The vermin of the galaxy? A species of living breathing jokes?

Except humans aren't the "vorcha of the galaxy." That's just ridiculous. By ME1, Earth has been part of galactic society for not even three decades, yet they have insinuated themselves so deeply and adapted so quickly that their advance has tipped scales that have been aweigh for thousands of years. Implying that humans were oppressed in any manner is just patent nonsense.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 28 mars 2012 - 08:19 .


#164
Corbinus

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Naughty Bear wrote...
Who wouldn't want to see their species be dominant? Would you want your own species to literally be the Vorcha of the galaxy? The vermin of the galaxy? A species of living breathing jokes?

LOL. You are going from one edge to another.
I believe that races can just cooperate with each other  without turning into masters and vermin.

#165
F00lishG

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 If that's the case, then I suppose Saren is similar to TIM and Shepard, eh?

#166
Dave of Canada

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Harshfact wrote...

Wasn't that moments before the ME3 ending ? or did i miss something ?


No, otherwise he'd have been incapable of controlling his indoctrinated soldiers.

#167
Tirigon

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Naughty Bear wrote...

He was not himself, he was under the control of Reapers. He literally could not think for himself, everything the reapers wanted was correct and completely logical to him.

A indoctrinated Hanar wanted to hang over his homeworld to the Reapers because the indoctrination made him think it was the best idea.


Maybe. Then he deserves to be shot not for his crimes but because it is the only working "cure" for indoctrination. He deserves to be shot either way.

#168
Blastback

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Captian Cornhole wrote...



I'll cut directly to the point, sure TIM has done bad stuff (no concentration camps mind you) but it was all to counter act the serious threat of the Reapers.


TIM didn't release Thorian creepers on civillians and lure Alliance soldiers into thresher maw nests in ME1 to save humanity from the Reapers.  And lets not forget that he's ultimatly responsible for what happened on Akuze. 

The Illusive man's goal isn't simply to save humanity.  He wants to elivate it above other species.  Human domince.  And he's willing to sacrifice anything to achive that.  So yeah, he's evil.

Modifié par Blastback, 28 mars 2012 - 09:18 .


#169
darkiddd

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Captian Cornhole wrote...

MrGuse wrote...

Goebbels just wanted Germany best interests put forward. That doesn't make his actions any less evil.


Really your going to play the N-a-z-i card? In that case you might as well be comparing the Jews, and gypsys and homosexuals to the pure evil of the Reapers. I hope your not that would be very bigoted of you.

I'll cut directly to the point, sure TIM has done bad stuff (no concentration camps mind you) but it was all to counter act the serious threat of the Reapers. The N-a-z-i-s did horrible stuff only to solidify their power base, and because they belived the racist lies.




Because we all know cerberus isn't a racist and a human supremacist right? :?

#170
Annihilator27

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I found myself not wanting to kill him anymore throughout the game.

#171
Sangheili_1337

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The Illusive man is in charge of a organization that conducts unethical experiments on people, enslaves people, and commits terrorism. He is willing to risk the entire human race in order to gain power on mere chance. If he was a real human being, he would be considered one of the most evil people in history.

#172
tetrisblock4x1

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Not even going to read the OP, the title told me enough. He'd be the full caricature of a mad scientist if he only had a white cat and a black moustache.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 28 mars 2012 - 11:34 .


#173
Glowpod

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This thread is so going nowhere...

/facepalm

#174
Naughty Bear

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Glowpod wrote...

This thread is so going nowhere...

/facepalm


And exactly what was the point of you posting that comment? It does not help the discussion at all, why did you waste 5 minutes of your life writing that comment?

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 29 mars 2012 - 05:49 .


#175
Sharn01

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TIM is evil.

If you dont believe TIM is evil then either,

You dont believe there is such a thing as evil and that any action can be justified depending on the situation.

or

You are not aware of all the things he has done, since in ME2 they painted him in a very positive light to intentionally make players consider that he may not be that bad.

Modifié par Sharn01, 29 mars 2012 - 05:51 .