385 réponses à ce sujet

[Naughty Bear]

Sharn01 wrote...

TIM is evil.

If you dont believe TIM is evil then you either dont believe there is such a thing as evil and that any action can be justified depending on the situation.

or

You are not aware of all the things he has done, since in ME2 they painted him in a very positive light to intentionally make players consider that he may not be that bad.

And what actions did the Illusive Man perform that can not be justified?

The Threshaw Maw and killing Kohaku can not be justified. Anything else has a reason.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 29 mars 2012 - 05:52 .

[Farbautisonn]

I wonder who people think sits in thinktanks, public relations offices, government buildings, Corporate headquarters, Intelligence services, and military bureaucracies around the world and rules their nations....

[Sharn01]

Naughty Bear wrote...


And what actions did the Illusive Man perform that can not be justified?

The Threshaw Maw and killing Kohaku can not be justified. Anything else has a reason.

Of the top of my head, industrial terrorist attacks that lead to massive eezo explosions in several colonies causing the death of millions of humans in the attempt that some of the survivng children might possibly develope biotics.

Political assassination.

Human and Alien experimentation.

These actions and many others are by definition evil, if you feel they can be justified then you are either confused, are overlooking how bad these things are because its not real and only exists in fiction, or are a sociopath who believes anything can be justified for the right reasons.

Modifié par Sharn01, 29 mars 2012 - 06:17 .

[Naughty Bear]

Sharn01 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...


And what actions did the Illusive Man perform that can not be justified?

The Threshaw Maw and killing Kohaku can not be justified. Anything else has a reason.

Of the top of my head, industrial terrorist attacks that lead to massive eezo explosions in several colonies causing the death of millions of humans in the attempt that some of the survivng children might possibly develope biotics.

Political assassination.

Human and Alien experimentation.

These actions and many others are by definition evil, if you feel they can be justified then you are either confused, are overlooking how bad these things are because its not real and only exists in fiction, or are a sociopath who believes anything can be justified for the right reasons.

I was waiting for that. If it was not for TIM, we would not have biotics at all. Sure, those exposed died of cancer but the children started to develope biotics. The benefits of biotics outweighs  the negatives. Personally, i would of set more 'incidents' off.

Political assassination we don't know much about due to it being in the codex in ME1 and they  were not fully developed then but in ME3 with the Salarian councilor, TIM was indoctrinated.

[Sharn01]

No, they are not justified, there was no guarantee that biotics would develope, and the deaths where not worth it, even if you could shoot down freighters with biotics it would not be worth it, and they are not that good, biotics are only a slight advantage in ground warfare.

If the government decided that their solution to unemployment is to remove murder from the list of crimes and encouraged its population to go out an kill anyone who stands in the way of them having a job or the job they want so that only the strong survive and have jobs, that would be evil. By your logic that would be a good thing that we should encourage more of.

[Farbautisonn]

Sharn01 wrote...

No, they are not justified, there was no guarantee that biotics would develope, and the deaths where not worth it, even if you could shoot down freighters with biotics it would not be worth it, and they are not that good, biotics are only a slight advantage in ground warfare.

If the government decided that their solution to unemployment is to remove murder from the list of crimes and encouraged its population to go out an kill anyone who stands in the way of them having a job or the job they want so that only the strong survive and have jobs, that would be evil. By your logic that would be a good thing that we should encourage more of.

-Illogical analogy is illogical.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...


And what actions did the Illusive Man perform that can not be justified?

The Threshaw Maw and killing Kohaku can not be justified. Anything else has a reason.

Of the top of my head, industrial terrorist attacks that lead to massive eezo explosions in several colonies causing the death of millions of humans in the attempt that some of the survivng children might possibly develope biotics.

Political assassination.

Human and Alien experimentation.

These actions and many others are by definition evil, if you feel they can be justified then you are either confused, are overlooking how bad these things are because its not real and only exists in fiction, or are a sociopath who believes anything can be justified for the right reasons.

I was waiting for that. If it was not for TIM, we would not have biotics at all. Sure, those exposed died of cancer but the children started to develope biotics. The benefits of biotics outweighs  the negatives. Personally, i would of set more 'incidents' off.

Political assassination we don't know much about due to it being in the codex in ME1 and they  were not fully developed then but in ME3 with the Salarian councilor, TIM was indoctrinated.

You want to give children cancer?

[Sharn01]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

No, they are not justified, there was no guarantee that biotics would develope, and the deaths where not worth it, even if you could shoot down freighters with biotics it would not be worth it, and they are not that good, biotics are only a slight advantage in ground warfare.

If the government decided that their solution to unemployment is to remove murder from the list of crimes and encouraged its population to go out an kill anyone who stands in the way of them having a job or the job they want so that only the strong survive and have jobs, that would be evil. By your logic that would be a good thing that we should encourage more of.

-Illogical analogy is illogical.

That anology is illogical,  but its completely logical to you to kill millions in the hopes that some of the survivors will be stronger for it?  You are also devaluing the worth of those who died.  You say, what if we get more biotics, I can also say what if one of the deaths you cause was going to be a scientist that invented a weapon that was more valuable to the war effort then every biotic combined?

And for the record, we had biotics before the eezo explosions, they where just extremely rare, TIM just wanted to increase how many we had.

Modifié par Sharn01, 29 mars 2012 - 06:38 .

[Naughty Bear]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...


And what actions did the Illusive Man perform that can not be justified?

The Threshaw Maw and killing Kohaku can not be justified. Anything else has a reason.

Of the top of my head, industrial terrorist attacks that lead to massive eezo explosions in several colonies causing the death of millions of humans in the attempt that some of the survivng children might possibly develope biotics.

Political assassination.

Human and Alien experimentation.

These actions and many others are by definition evil, if you feel they can be justified then you are either confused, are overlooking how bad these things are because its not real and only exists in fiction, or are a sociopath who believes anything can be justified for the right reasons.

I was waiting for that. If it was not for TIM, we would not have biotics at all. Sure, those exposed died of cancer but the children started to develope biotics. The benefits of biotics outweighs  the negatives. Personally, i would of set more 'incidents' off.

Political assassination we don't know much about due to it being in the codex in ME1 and they  were not fully developed then but in ME3 with the Salarian councilor, TIM was indoctrinated.

You want to give children cancer?

You just pick what you wanted to see and twisted my arguement. Parents exposed got cancer, but the child may develope biotics.

The risks are worth it if children of the next generation became biotics.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 29 mars 2012 - 06:42 .

[Sharn01]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...


And what actions did the Illusive Man perform that can not be justified?

The Threshaw Maw and killing Kohaku can not be justified. Anything else has a reason.

Of the top of my head, industrial terrorist attacks that lead to massive eezo explosions in several colonies causing the death of millions of humans in the attempt that some of the survivng children might possibly develope biotics.

Political assassination.

Human and Alien experimentation.

These actions and many others are by definition evil, if you feel they can be justified then you are either confused, are overlooking how bad these things are because its not real and only exists in fiction, or are a sociopath who believes anything can be justified for the right reasons.

I was waiting for that. If it was not for TIM, we would not have biotics at all. Sure, those exposed died of cancer but the children started to develope biotics. The benefits of biotics outweighs  the negatives. Personally, i would of set more 'incidents' off.

Political assassination we don't know much about due to it being in the codex in ME1 and they  were not fully developed then but in ME3 with the Salarian councilor, TIM was indoctrinated.

You want to give children cancer?

You just pick what you wanted to see and twisted my arguement. Parents exposed got cancer, but the child may develope biotics.

The risks are worth it if children of the next generation became biotics.

Not true, many of the children where born with brain tumors, and lived very short lives because of it.  I would be opposed to doing this even if biotics children where a certainty, there was no certainty in any of it, it was all a gamble without any conclusive evidence of what the success rate would be.

Modifié par Sharn01, 29 mars 2012 - 06:46 .

[MrAtomica]

He was just an indoctrinated tool. Neither he, nor the Reapers, are truly the enemy. The only villain this game has left is the Catalyst. And we don't even get to kill it.

>feelsbadman

[Farbautisonn]

Sharn01 wrote...

That anology is illogical,  but its completely logical to you to kill millions in the hopes that some of the survivors will be stronger for it?  You are also devaluing the worth of those who died.  You say, what if we get more biotics, I can also say what if one of the deaths you cause was going to be a scientist that invented a weapon that was more valuable to the war effort then every biotic combined?

-Sure. The first Great wall of cost over 1 million civilllian deaths. In a time where people died from the common cold.

The emperors of china percieved it was well worth the price of millions of their subjects to keep the enemies at bay. The Vietnamese lost in excess of one million men to win freedom on their terms. WW2 the same. Millions fought and died to fight rea... ermn.. axispowers, and some of the crap that were done in the name of freedom included political assassinations, torture, mass rape, and countless other violations of human rights, so you could have your illusion of freedom today.

In the states there is a government body, that at a whim can suspend the constitutional civil rights at a whim or on the order of the president. Countless nations, even "civillized ones" employ or outsource torture and happily use the information gathered by refoulment (look up the term) to combat what they percieve as terrorists.

If a reaper esque threat emergerd the people wouldnt give a ****e how they were kept safe. As long as they were kept safe. Dont try to bull****e me into thinking anyone would give a ****e if all of africa was laid barren if it could save the west. You wouldnt skip a heartbeat in the ballotbox.

[Annihilator27]

MrAtomica wrote...

He was just an indoctrinated tool. Neither he, nor the Reapers, are truly the enemy. The only villain this game has left is the Catalyst. And we don't even get to kill it.

>feelsbadman

2 of the endings should take care of that lol.

[shepskisaac]

Captian Cornhole wrote...

TIM would have controlled the Reapers if he wouldn't have gotten himself indoctrinated first. He was right all along, even Shepard has the option to control the Reapers.

Would he? Was that his goal? Or a result of indoctrination? He's being indoctrinated the entire ME3 and Vendetta says that indoctrinated spies that pushed for controlling the reapers instead of destroying them was what cause failure of Crucible project in their cycle. So is control actually his goal or Reapers' suggestion?

[Sharn01]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

That anology is illogical,  but its completely logical to you to kill millions in the hopes that some of the survivors will be stronger for it?  You are also devaluing the worth of those who died.  You say, what if we get more biotics, I can also say what if one of the deaths you cause was going to be a scientist that invented a weapon that was more valuable to the war effort then every biotic combined?

-Sure. The first Great wall of cost over 1 million civilllian deaths. In a time where people died from the common cold.

The emperors of china percieved it was well worth the price of millions of their subjects to keep the enemies at bay. The Vietnamese lost in excess of one million men to win freedom on their terms. WW2 the same. Millions fought and died to fight rea... ermn.. axispowers, and some of the crap that were done in the name of freedom included political assassinations, torture, mass rape, and countless other violations of human rights, so you could have your illusion of freedom today.

In the states there is a government body, that at a whim can suspend the constitutional civil rights at a whim or on the order of the president. Countless nations, even "civillized ones" employ or outsource torture and happily use the information gathered by refoulment (look up the term) to combat what they percieve as terrorists.

If a reaper esque threat emergerd the people wouldnt give a ****e how they were kept safe. As long as they were kept safe. Dont try to bull****e me into thinking anyone would give a ****e if all of africa was laid barren if it could save the west. You wouldnt skip a heartbeat in the ballotbox.

Understood, you are an evil and immoral person, you do not actually believe you are and just consider yourself practical, and therefore cannot recognize anything someone like TIM does as being evil, but only practical.

[Farbautisonn]

Sharn01 wrote...
Understood, you are an evil and immoral person, you do not actually believe you are and just consider yourself practical, and therefore cannot recognize anything someone like TIM does as being evil, but only practical.

-Aha. You cant refute me so you go on to calling me "evil" and "immoral". Thats grand. Just remember this. Your nation is governend by people like me and like TIM. And thats pretty much any nation as soon as you peek behind the facade.

Keep your illusions. Im sure they will make your life alot more black and white.

[Naughty Bear]

Sharn01 wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

That anology is illogical,  but its completely logical to you to kill millions in the hopes that some of the survivors will be stronger for it?  You are also devaluing the worth of those who died.  You say, what if we get more biotics, I can also say what if one of the deaths you cause was going to be a scientist that invented a weapon that was more valuable to the war effort then every biotic combined?

-Sure. The first Great wall of cost over 1 million civilllian deaths. In a time where people died from the common cold.

The emperors of china percieved it was well worth the price of millions of their subjects to keep the enemies at bay. The Vietnamese lost in excess of one million men to win freedom on their terms. WW2 the same. Millions fought and died to fight rea... ermn.. axispowers, and some of the crap that were done in the name of freedom included political assassinations, torture, mass rape, and countless other violations of human rights, so you could have your illusion of freedom today.

In the states there is a government body, that at a whim can suspend the constitutional civil rights at a whim or on the order of the president. Countless nations, even "civillized ones" employ or outsource torture and happily use the information gathered by refoulment (look up the term) to combat what they percieve as terrorists.

If a reaper esque threat emergerd the people wouldnt give a ****e how they were kept safe. As long as they were kept safe. Dont try to bull****e me into thinking anyone would give a ****e if all of africa was laid barren if it could save the west. You wouldnt skip a heartbeat in the ballotbox.

Understood, you are an evil and immoral person, you do not actually believe you are and just consider yourself practical, and therefore cannot recognize anything someone like TIM does as being evil, but only practical.

How is he? If what Farbautisonn said is correct, that great wall was worth the lives as in the long run, it save even more lives.

I agree with it all.

Farbautisonn is not 'evil' as he did not commit those acts.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 29 mars 2012 - 07:01 .

[Sharn01]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...
Understood, you are an evil and immoral person, you do not actually believe you are and just consider yourself practical, and therefore cannot recognize anything someone like TIM does as being evil, but only practical.

-Aha. You cant refute me so you go on to calling me "evil" and "immoral". Thats grand. Just remember this. Your nation is governend by people like me and like TIM. And thats pretty much any nation as soon as you peek behind the facade.

Keep your illusions. Im sure they will make your life alot more black and white.

There is no refute for something that has no logic.  Your belief is that evil exists and we see it everyday, therefore its ecceptable to do more evil things because they are going to happen anyway.  Thats not a justification for evil, its simply an excuse.

One of my best friends thinks very similer to you, the difference is he knows he is evil, he not retarded evil like we see in games and movies, he still values friendships and obeys the law because he doesnt like the idea of jail, but he is evil and does not try to hide it.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

That anology is illogical,  but its completely logical to you to kill millions in the hopes that some of the survivors will be stronger for it?  You are also devaluing the worth of those who died.  You say, what if we get more biotics, I can also say what if one of the deaths you cause was going to be a scientist that invented a weapon that was more valuable to the war effort then every biotic combined?

-Sure. The first Great wall of cost over 1 million civilllian deaths. In a time where people died from the common cold.

The emperors of china percieved it was well worth the price of millions of their subjects to keep the enemies at bay. The Vietnamese lost in excess of one million men to win freedom on their terms. WW2 the same. Millions fought and died to fight rea... ermn.. axispowers, and some of the crap that were done in the name of freedom included political assassinations, torture, mass rape, and countless other violations of human rights, so you could have your illusion of freedom today.

In the states there is a government body, that at a whim can suspend the constitutional civil rights at a whim or on the order of the president. Countless nations, even "civillized ones" employ or outsource torture and happily use the information gathered by refoulment (look up the term) to combat what they percieve as terrorists.

If a reaper esque threat emergerd the people wouldnt give a ****e how they were kept safe. As long as they were kept safe. Dont try to bull****e me into thinking anyone would give a ****e if all of africa was laid barren if it could save the west. You wouldnt skip a heartbeat in the ballotbox.

Understood, you are an evil and immoral person, you do not actually believe you are and just consider yourself practical, and therefore cannot recognize anything someone like TIM does as being evil, but only practical.

How is he? If what Farbautisonn said is correct, that great wall was worth the lives as in the long run, it save even more lives.

I agree with it all.

I approve too. Mongols were such monstrous union of tribes who could do any termination in civilized countries like older unions for example Huns. I don't want to mention the terrors they created in 13th century.

In overall The Wall was necessary (unlike Persia which had no walls and suffered many invasions from central Asia) but should be done with more care.

[Naughty Bear]

Sharn01 wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...
Understood, you are an evil and immoral person, you do not actually believe you are and just consider yourself practical, and therefore cannot recognize anything someone like TIM does as being evil, but only practical.

-Aha. You cant refute me so you go on to calling me "evil" and "immoral". Thats grand. Just remember this. Your nation is governend by people like me and like TIM. And thats pretty much any nation as soon as you peek behind the facade.

Keep your illusions. Im sure they will make your life alot more black and white.

There is no refute for something that has no logic.  Your belief is that evil exists and we see it everyday, therefore its ecceptable to do more evil things because they are going to happen anyway.  Thats not a justification for evil, its simply an excuse.

One of my best friends thinks very similer to you, the difference is he knows he is evil, he not retarded evil like we see in games and movies, he still values friendships and obeys the law because he doesnt like the idea of jail, but he is evil and does not try to hide it.

Admitting he is evil? I won't even go that far, i like to think of myself willing to do what is necessary. But i am not evil.

[Farbautisonn]

Sharn01 wrote...

There is no refute for something that has no logic.  Your belief is that evil exists and we see it everyday, therefore its ecceptable to do more evil things because they are going to happen anyway.  Thats not a justification for evil, its simply an excuse.

One of my best friends thinks very similer to you, the difference is he knows he is evil, he not retarded evil like we see in games and movies, he still values friendships and obeys the law because he doesnt like the idea of jail, but he is evil and does not try to hide it.

-Wrong.

Its a matter of perspective. What you percieve as "Evil" might not be empirically, morally or even ethically "evil" for another. I know that cultural imperialism here in the west have seduced us into assuming thats true but things look a bit different for people who depend on a water buffalo for their livelyhoods.

I know there are people outthere that commit acts that are pretty much universially seen as Evil. However I do not think you do. You see "gray" and get so ****e scared because its different from "white", that you presume its "black". I do not think you have a clue how "black" the world can be.

As for your anecdotal evidence. You have befriended an "evil" person. What does that make you in your own moral and ethical narrative? 

Modifié par Farbautisonn, 29 mars 2012 - 07:08 .

[Sharn01]

Modifié par Sharn01, 01 avril 2012 - 06:08 .

[TheMightyG00sh]

The Illusive Man suffered the same warped mindset as Hitler. He watched on as the Turians and Humans went to war (just like Hitler during World War I) and took over a part ofthe Aliiance (just like Hitler took over the **** Political Party) and used it to try and further the goals of his people (humanity for TIM, Germans for Hitler) adn he blamed other species for humanities casualties in the First Contact War (just like Hitler blamed other people for the German's loss during World War I). He is a scorned man. His morals shaped by one historical and infamous moment.

[Naughty Bear]

TheMightyG00sh wrote...

The Illusive Man suffered the same warped mindset as Hitler. He watched on as the Turians and Humans went to war (just like Hitler during World War I) and took over a part ofthe Aliiance (just like Hitler took over the **** Political Party) and used it to try and further the goals of his people (humanity for TIM, Germans for Hitler) adn he blamed other species for humanities casualties in the First Contact War (just like Hitler blamed other people for the German's loss during World War I). He is a scorned man. His morals shaped by one historical and infamous moment.

Well Turians were responsible for the deaths of many Humans, they attacked us first and took over Shanxi.

[Sbri]

Naughty Bear wrote...

I was waiting for that. If it was not for TIM, we would not have biotics at all. Sure, those exposed died of cancer but the children started to develope biotics. The benefits of biotics outweighs  the negatives. Personally, i would of set more 'incidents' off.

  I'm sorry, but that was refuted in ME1.  The first exposures were accidental.  Cerberus was not involved in the initial exposures, ergo we would have biotics with out Cerberus.  Also, it was not the parent that was at risk for the tumors, but the children. 
From the Mass Effect Wiki on Biotics: "Eezo exposure is by no means guaranteed to result in biotic ability. On
the contrary, most fetuses that are exposed are not affected at all.
Others will develop brain tumors or other horrific physical
complications. In humans, only about one in ten eezo-exposed infants
will develop biotic talents strong and stable enough to merit training,
and these abilities are not always permanent."

  However to set aside the nitpickyness
over lore, there is a disturbing idea in your statement.  That it doesn't
matter what suffering you cause if there is a potential gain.  I ask that
you please consider a ferw points:

Who decides what's for the best? 
Do we vote? Do we let our usually less the enlightened leaders make the call?
Do we form a committee? Does a dictator decide? What of those who disagree? Do
they get to "opt out"? The potentials for abuse are so profound that
the mere thought is terrifying.  That another person decided that I or my
child must suffer in order to further some "greater good" is what
we've been fighting to prevent for the last century or more. 

And here is the question I would ask you.  Would you sacrifice yourself?
Would you suffer torture in order to further an unknown goal of "bettering
humanity"?  It is easy to say you would inflict horrors on another.
Would you gladly suffer them?
Edit:  Sorry for the formatting crazyness

Modifié par Sbri, 29 mars 2012 - 07:19 .