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[TEWR]

So, last night when I was suffering from an excruciatingly painful headache my mind began to wander before I fell asleep. Specifically, towards the founding of the Grey Wardens. You know, how they actually knew how to do the Joining.

Now, it's a known fact that the Reaver Joining is blood magic. It's the ritualized consumption of Dragon's blood. And we know that the Warden Joining involves Archdemon blood -- amongst regular Darkspawn blood and lyrium mixed together by mages -- and an Archdemon is just a corrupted Old God, a draconic being of grand power.
 
I'm assuming the Reaver Joining also involves lyrium just as much as it does Dragon's blood, and that it's mixed together by mages. But it might just be blood. Anyway...

Suppose for a moment that in -305 Ancient -- when the Grey Wardens were first founded -- the Archdemon Dumat was slain by untainted warriors. What if they worshipped the Old Gods still? Hell, maybe they didn't worship them still. Maybe they simply just wanted to drink the Archdemon's blood because they thought it would grant them needed powers to defeat the Darkspawn.

But if they did worship them, then when they slew Dumat maybe they drank the blood of his corpse -- be it straight blood shots or mixed with lyrium. Gross I know, but then again that's part and parcel to the Grey Wardens. Drinking the blood of a dead dragon.

Now I'm predicating my speculation off of these facts and other things.

If they did that, then they would've had an instantaneous connection to the horde. We know that the Archdemon's blood is extremely potent with the Taint, and David Gaider confirmed somewhere that you need a lethal dose of the taint and that Archdemon blood is the obvious choice -- despite its rarity.

So.... basic gist if I managed to remember everything I thought of last night correctly: Skilled soldiers killed Dumat's body, some drank his blood like a person in a Dragon cult does, Grey Wardens were born, eventually killed Dumat himself.

Or whoever the first Archdemon was, since doubts exist on whether it was Dumat or some other Old God. And if it was Dumat, then whether or not he was permanently killed or is an OGB somewhere.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 mars 2012 - 02:23 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So.... basic gist if I managed to remember everything I thought of last night correctly: Skilled soldiers killed Dumat's body, some drank his blood like a person in a Dragon cult does, Grey Wardens were born, eventually killed Dumat himself.

Interesting thoughts.

I think it's possible that mages could have uncovered the secret through their craft, or that some of the forces battling Dumat could have become tainted (from battling Dumat) and survived the taint. Uncovering the secrets of the darkspawn through the taint, hearing voices, "seeing" through their eyes, could have given them some insight into how to defeat Dumat. It's possible Dumat may have been killed, and ressurected, a few times before they discovered that only a person with the taint can permanently kill an Archdemon.

[Augustei]

Morrigan says to the Warden however that he could be the first warden to ever slay the Archdemon and live which seems to suggest that the ritual has never actually been done in full practice before so I dont think Dumat would be a OGB - What happened in the warden prison in legacy could have been simple mechanical and / or magical conjurations. Similar to what the Roman priests tried to try and maintain the belief in their original gobs and attempt to prevent the further rise of Christianity.. With the tricks they did with the temple doors etc.

But yeah your theory is a logical and probable one, most likely the truth or something close to it. Still prefer that old theory of how Flemeth showed them how to do it though =P

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 28 mars 2012 - 06:19 .

[GarethJShep]

they drink darkspawn and archdemon blood

[FaeQueenCory]

Given the time frames of how long Dumat's blight lasted.... I think it's a safe assumption that they "killed" Him multiple times.
Hence why it lasted 200 years as opposed to the few decades all subsequent Blights lasted.
Eventually, through Science, as Nizaris1 suggests, some mages developed the process of the Joining using some of the blood from one of Dumat's many slain bodies.

Just because a normal person/group of persons can't permanently slay an Archdemon, the way Riordan talked about the necessity of the Wardens made it seem like they have had experience where nonWardens deal the killing blow.

[LobselVith8]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If we watch the intro, the Grey Warden was "magically" come from nowhere in the beginning, and they stop the first blight...how? How they become Grey Warden?

Perhaps Flemeth had a role in the inception of the Grey Wardens...

[thats1evildude]

I imagine they figured out the secret to slaying the Archdemon through observation and experimentation.

At some point, they figured out that every time someone killed Dumat, he just transferred his soul to another darkspawn and rose again as the Archdemon. They also would have known, through years of seeing their comrades become ghouls, that anyone tainted by the darkspawn corruption also possessed a connection to the Archdemon. They put two and two together and surmised that it might be possible to take that taint into themselves without becoming ghouls.

[Augustei]

Nizaris1 wrote...

i do think about this topic, where Grey Warden come from? it is like lost chain theory...

Grey Warden drink darkspawn blood plus Archdemon blood to become tainted - premise 1
Achdemon can't be killed by normal person - premise 2
Only Grey warden can kill Archdemon - premise 3

My logic can't compute the first chain, the story is broken

In my opinion :

- There was an experiment, both magic and science in which creating the darkspawn and Archdemon
- The experiment going bad, darkspawn multiplied, Archdemon taking control
- The crazy scientist mage using the Archdemon blood to make another experiment on normal person in desperation
- In the try and error, some subject survive
- These first "lab mice" can kill Archdemon
- They are the first Grey Warden
- The Chantry make up stories and blame Tevinter Mage
-  But the problem not solved, there are a lot of darkspawns
- The first grey Warden in time become dark spawn themselves, but they keep it secret
- One of Grey Warden who kill the Archdemon mutated become Archdemon
- The calling is actually where the Grey Warden becoming darkspawn
- The cycle continue

I dont see how the Chantry made the story up when Corypheus confirms it, that the magisters were told by Dumat the city was golden and they went there and it wasn't. Although the seat of the maker stuff might be false since the city seems to have been corrupted by the time they got there. The magister part is true

LobselVith8 wrote...
Perhaps Flemeth had a role in the inception of the Grey Wardens...

Yeah theres a very old thread that goes into detail about this theory, its my favourite one so far =D but theres no way I could find it after so long.. It might of been on either the wiki or the bsn

[Augustei]

Nizaris1 wrote...

@LobselVith8

There is no back story relating Flemeth with Archdemon and darkspawn, only Dark Ritual of Morrigan.

I assume Flemeth know how Archdemon is actually killed, she sent Morigan following the Warden purposely to get impregnated and doing the ritual, but it have nothing to do with how the first Grey Warden come to be.

This rise more questions :

- why? why Flemeth sent Morrigan for that purpose?
- why actually Morrigan want her mother killed?
- why she want the baby? (if agreeing with the ritual)
- why she don't care and ****** off? (if disagree with the ritual)

The answers whatever they are will not explain how the first Grey Warden become a Grey Warden, it just a plot in the story.

The most logical explanation that i can accept is like i mention before there was an experiment, and there are a lot of cover ups.

Edit : maybe the Chantry involve it it....

The chantry didn't exist when any of this happened and not for a while after either.  Theres a theory that flemeth is one of the elven gods and the tevinter old gods are actually the "dark ones" or w/e they were called of elven lore. They are possibly the same race but some were corrupted for w/e reason like Morgoth, Saurons Master from LOTR or Sauron himself. Perhaps she has discovered this as a method to reverse the corruption of her fellow elven gods and thats why she possibly helped created the Grey Wardens.

I personally had a thought that what was in the black city (which was always black imo) was actually something along the lines of Nurgle The Plague Lord from the Warhammer series. And maybe theres more like him, Manifestations of the dark side of living creatures emotions and sins or something

[TEWR]

Yes, but it doesn't mean Tevinter Mages fully responsible for it.

In anyway, it doesn't explain how the first Grey Warden get Archdemon blood for the Joining...and how they prepare the Joining, who involve in the first Joining...

- Mages who prepare all the stuff for the Joining
- It means mages involve in the first Joining
- It also means the Chantry approve the Joining regardless it is blood magic

First off, if you killed the Archdemon's body that doesn't mean the body won't still be there. The fact that the Warden uses Archdemon blood in Awakening is proof enough that the body remained.

The soul may not have been killed during the first Blight, but the body may have remained. And thus blood could've been extracted from it.

Second, the Chantry doesn't know how the Wardens are made. This is kept a secret by the Order. As far as they know, they're just an Order of elite warriors.

The only people outside the Order to know how one joins is Anora and possibly Loghain, probably due to deciphering the encryptions from the Warden Compound in Denerim that described the process.

[TEWR]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Morrigan says to the Warden however that he could be the first warden to ever slay the Archdemon and live which seems to suggest that the ritual has never actually been done in full practice before so I dont think Dumat would be a OGB - What happened in the warden prison in legacy could have been simple mechanical and / or magical conjurations. Similar to what the Roman priests tried to try and maintain the belief in their original gobs and attempt to prevent the further rise of Christianity.. With the tricks they did with the temple doors etc.

But yeah your theory is a logical and probable one, most likely the truth or something close to it. Still prefer that old theory of how Flemeth showed them how to do it though =P

It's entirely possible Flemeth did have a part in it, assuming she's as old as the world itself. Chances are, she's Fen'Harel -- or Mythal -- or someone else.

But I like my idea more 

Nizaris1 wrote...

@Ethereal

The tainted blood prepared by the Circle Mages in Ostagar, it is impossible the Chantry and the Templar don't know anything about it

Just because Circle Mages prepared it doesn't mean the Chantry or Templars knew.

I also find it odd that Duncan would entrust any outside Mage to prepare such a thing, when I have no doubt that there were some Grey Warden Mages in Ferelden's handful of Wardens.

Also, Ostagar was a slaughter. If the Chantry/Templars were informed of it at that point for the first time ever, chances are none of the Mages or Templars that oversaw the concoction survived.

Wynne and Uldred are the only Circle Mages to have survived, but I doubt that they had anything to do with the preparations itself. If Wynne did, she would've known it was blood magic and then wouldn't have had an issue with a blood mage Warden.

If Uldred did, well, he ended up losing himself anyway to a Pride Demon. Plus, he was a blood mage, so I doubt he'd tell the Chantry or Templars that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mars 2012 - 07:36 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

thats1evildude wrote...

I imagine they figured out the secret to slaying the Archdemon through observation and experimentation.

At some point, they figured out that every time someone killed Dumat, he just transferred his soul to another darkspawn and rose again as the Archdemon. They also would have known, through years of seeing their comrades become ghouls, that anyone tainted by the darkspawn corruption also possessed a connection to the Archdemon. They put two and two together and surmised that it might be possible to take that taint into themselves without becoming ghouls.

This. This right here. You don't have to go and mix Flemeth up in it, just to add drama.

[Kinkaku]

Pretty close to how I thought, except it just involved gathering blood from Dumat whenever they had a battle with the Horde and in there brazenness tried to gain his strength through it, fight fire with fire.

[TEWR]

Nope! As far as I can tell, no codex on this belief exists. Now if some other forumite came to this belief in the past, well that's a different story.

[Lynata]

An excerpt from the Dragon Age P&P Set 2:

"You will guard them and they will hate you for it. Whenever there is not a Blight actively crawling across the surface, humanity will do its best to forget how much they need us. And that's good. We need to stand apart from them, even if they have to push us away to make us do it. That is the only way we can ever make the hard decisions."
-- Kristoff, Commander of the Grey

History of the Grey Wardens, Chapter I

The world was dying - literally, not metaphorically - and the folk of Thedas were stumbling in dawning horror.

It was the year 889 TE by the calendars of the Tevinter Imperium. For almost ninety years, beasts the likes of which had never been seen were ravaging the length of the Imperium, striking from an apparent multitude of staging points in the western countryside of Thedas. The dwarven kingdoms reported that many of their outposts had fallen, that the "spawn of the dark" had overrun portions of their Deep Roads and were using them to travel the breadth of the land unseen by those above.

The sky itself had become rebellious, with unnatural light and strange storms reported across the land. Crops grew strange, and many creatures of the wilderness did as well. The Old Gods of the Tevinter no longer answered prayers for deliverance, if they ever had. Their temples were being burned and looted with abandon, their priests assailed with pleas for help, or stoned to death for their impotence. Andraste would not be born for another 92 years, and the Maker would not listen to the cries of the world.

In this hour of Thedas' greatest need, 890 TE, at Weishaupt Fortress in the desolate Anderfels, a band of knights and soldiers from that realm and across the Tevinter Imperium renounced their oaths to their various lords and commanders and together assumed a higher duty: to defeat the Blight. Thus was born the Order of the Grey Wardens, and they would defeat the Blight or dash their lives against it until not one of them stood.

The Grey Wardens' ritual of the Joining dates from this time. The Joining is a secret rite by which Warden initiates consume lyrium and the blood of darkspawn and in so doing are granted - amongst other abilities - the ability to mystically sense the nearby presence of their darkspawn enemies.

The nascent military order prosecuted an aggressive campaign against the Blight. Outsiders first witnessed their might at the Battle of Nordbotten, where the Grey Wardens rode into battle mounted on griffons and slew the foul creatures ten and twenty at a time. Beholden to no temporal lords, the Wardens continued to fight the darkspawn and the Archdemon that led them without complicating concerns. They were free to sacrifice villages and fortresses that could not be won, preserving their might for the clashes that truly mattered. Thus, the tide began to turn.

For the next hundred years battles rages. Lands given up for lost were reclaimed. As the other nations saw the Grey Wardens' brutal effectiveness they lent their aid. The order grew in numbers and their reputation spread to every corner of Thedas. They accepted all with skill, might, or tenacity into their ranks, slaves and noblemen alike, regardless of their race or temperament. In 992 TE the Grey Wardens finally met the Archdemon Dumat on the Silent Plains, sacrificing fully one-third of the armies of the north in order to fell their ultimate enemy and drive the darkspawn back below the surface.

The Grey Wardens' goal had been seen to its completion, but they knew that the Imperium had once venerated seven gods, and that six remained beneath the earth. They knew that they must continue to keep watch.

Modifié par Lynata, 30 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[Davillo]

What is more interesting what happened to the Dumat slain by untainted men? Did the soul enter a darkspawn and the said darkspawn morphed in to a dragon like a mage morphs in to an abomination? Or did the darkspawn keep it's shape except that it was now a darkspawn body with a old god soul it would become something like an awakened darkspawn.

[TEWR]

Lynata wrote...

*snip*

Assuming this is directed at me, I already know the components and the history of the First Blight. My OP is just theorizing how they came to the knowledge of how to do the Joining, because it's not something you can just know off the bat when you first create an Order dedicated to fighting a new type of foe.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 mars 2012 - 02:22 .

[WardenWade]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's entirely possible Flemeth did have a part in it, assuming she's as old as the world itself. Chances are, she's Fen'Harel -- or Mythal -- or someone else.

But I like my idea more 

[quote]

It would please me greatly to see Fen'Harel for real in a future DA game.  *points at banner*  I like his sauce   I wouldn't mind him destroying the world some day...