52 réponses à ce sujet

[WardenWade]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[...]

It's entirely possible Flemeth did have
a part in it, assuming she's as old as the world itself. Chances are,
she's Fen'Harel -- or Mythal -- or someone else.

But I like my idea more ../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png

It would please me greatly to see Fen'Harel for real in a future DA game.  *points at banner*  I like his sauce   I wouldn't mind him destroying the world some day...

Modifié par WardenWade, 30 mars 2012 - 02:37 .

[Lynata]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Assuming this is directed at me, I already know the components and the history of the First Blight. My OP is just theorizing how they came to the knowledge of how to do the Joining, because it's not something you can just know off the bat when you first create an Order dedicated to fighting a new type of foe.

It's directed at anyone who wants to know. And may also be seen as an incentive to buy these cool books.

Regarding the question, the answer is in the text. They took the blood of some darkspawn they killed.

Whilst Archdemon blood may be preferred and possibly even give whoever drinks it superior abilities, it seems obvious that the Wardens have no problem substituting with Genlocks or Hurlocks etc. After all, what matters is the concentration of the taint, and as we have seen in the games it doesn't take an Archdemon to be "lethal".

This also solves the perceived conflict regarding the first Wardens - as well as the issue of draining a single dragon's body and hoping that this blood would suffice for millions of Joinings throughout Thedas for several centuries until the next Archdemon shows up.

Modifié par Lynata, 30 mars 2012 - 03:01 .

[TEWR]

Lynata wrote...

Regarding the question, the answer is in the text. They took the blood of some darkspawn they killed.

Again, that's merely the component. Which I already know about. That doesn't explain how they knew that in order to combat the Darkspawn -- and more importantly, the Archdemon -- they needed to ingest it.

How they came to that conclusion is what I'm trying to answer. Because you don't just automatically know to ingest the tainted blood of Darkspawn or Archdemons, and you don't just say "Why the hell not?" without some decent evidence to support it.

Hence my OP. Where I presume that Dragon Cults had existed at this time -- the Reaver types, not just "All hail the Dragons!" -- and they thought that since the Archdemon is a dragon and drinking dragon's blood grants abilities, the same might hold true for the Archdemon's blood.

The components aren't what I want to know. It's how did the original Wardens know that they needed to drink Tainted blood?

Whilst Archdemon blood may be preferred and possibly even give whoever drinks it superior abilities, it seems obvious that the Wardens have no problem substituting with Genlocks or Hurlocks etc. After all, what matters is the concentration of the taint, and as we have seen in the games it doesn't take an Archdemon to be "lethal".

Just drinking some Hurlock mook's blood wouldn't cut it. Gaider said sometime in the past that drinking mook Darkspawn blood would just turn the person into a Ghoul if they survived, not a Warden.

He said that it has to be -- as you and I have said in this thread -- sufficiently potent enough. Archdemon blood is the preferred choice, but the blood of a more powerful Darkspawn would do. Say a Hurlock General, as opposed to a Hurlock Mook #9489.

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

@Ethereal writer Delux

I have check it, the Circle Mage who prepare the Joining, it is in Duncan dialogue, which means the Chantry and the Templar know about the Joining and they know the Joining is Blood Magic

It also means the Chantry may involve in whatever things happen in the past, but they cover it up.

I never denied that he said it. I just said that I found it suspicious that he would let outsider Mages do it. I know that he said it, but that doesn't mean I don't think it's kinda idiotic for him to do such a thing. The Joining isn't supposed to be known by outsiders, yet he entrusts the knowledge of how to make it to outside mages? Doesn't fly straight for me. Seems like a plot hole. Minor, but nevertheless a plot hole.

And it doesn't mean the Templars or the Chantry knew. Just because the Circle Mages were involved does not mean the Templars knew, or the Chantry. A mage can do something without the Templars or Chantry knowing.

And again, Ostagar was a bloodbath. If the Chantry and Templars did know at this time -- which I highly doubt -- when the Circle Mages were preparing it, I doubt the message was relayed back to their superiors. Because the people would've died.

[TEWR]

Maybe Andraste had something to do with it?

Andraste was born well after the the Wardens were first established.

But yes, the Reaver ritual -- which I don't think Andraste had any part of. That just seems to be something from the last few generations of the Haven cult's lifetime -- is similar to the Joining. Because both are blood magic.

If the Chantry did know about it in the past -- though it would've happened after the Order was first created, since the Chantry sprung up after the First Blight and whatnot -- and they condoned it, it wouldn't be much of a shock to me.

They condone phylacteries, which are also blood magic.

They're certainly hypocritical in their condemnation of blood magic, but I just don't have sufficient evidence to back up a belief that they know how the Warden Joining is made.

The secret will never go out.

But you said that the Templars and the Chantry also knew. If they knew, they're not beholden to the same limits Mages are. They can roam the countryside.

Your logic is flawed. My logic is undeniable.

To be serious. If the Chantry knew and they condoned it, it's more hypocrisy to tack onto them. As it stands though, there isn't sufficient evidence for me to believe they ever knew. You can believe it though, but there doesn't seem to be much to point to the Chantry knowing. Merely Circle Mages.

Which as I've said, boggles my mind as to why Duncan would allow them to know. Unless by Circle Mages he meant Warden Mages that used to be Circle Mages, but that would be stretching it.

So yea, minor plot hole.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 mars 2012 - 06:18 .

[Irku]

I thought Riordan said that the first Grey Wardens were a group of Anders Soilders that defected from the main army because they thought defeating the Darkspawn were more important. Then they traveled to Tevinter (where I assume the mages came into the picture to create the joining) and none of wich survived the battle against Dumant.

It still dosn't explain how they came up with the idea, but maybe the mages in Tevinter had the idea because they worshiped the old gods?

[DeathScepter]

Arcane Warrior discipline is rare but known Mage Discipline.

Joining and Reaver Ritual is both a blood magic Ritual by accepting ritually prepared blood. Joining needs DarkSpawn blood and Reaver needs Dragon blood.

The Circle uses blood magic to keep an eye out on their mages. And The Circle is the magical arm of the Chantry, the same way the Templars are the Military arm of the Chantry.

Chantry rivalry with the Dalish is due to how dangerous magic is. One mage can do a lot of damage.

The Grey Warden won't have existed if the Darkspawn or the Archdemon never existed.

[Lynata]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Again, that's merely the component. Which I already know about. That doesn't explain how they knew that in order to combat the Darkspawn -- and more importantly, the Archdemon -- they needed to ingest it.

Ah! I thought the question was how they could have done the Joining before the Archdemon was killed. It sounded as if many people assumed that only its blood would qualify.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
Gaider said sometime in the past that drinking mook Darkspawn blood would just turn the person into a Ghoul if they survived, not a Warden.

Which is correct. Just drinking darkspawn blood only makes you an infected.
Drinking darkspawn blood prepared with lyrium - as is the case with the Warden Joining - is something entirely different, though.

Imho, the only thing that should happen with "weak" darkspawn blood is that your abilities as a Grey Warden don't fully develop. The mightier the slain foe, the mightier the resulting Grey Warden. At least this is how it'd make sense to me.

And personally I still don't see the Joining as blood magic. Darkspawn blood is the source of the taint, not the source of the magic. The latter comes from the lyrium which is mixed into it. The Wardens might as well eat Ogre steaks with lyrium sauce; all that matters is that they get infected (but blood is the taint in its purest transferrable form).
In short, I see a difference between "blood magic" and "magic blood". I realize there are many ways to interpret the existing material, though. Perhaps some day the writers will clarify.

[TEWR]

Lynata wrote...

Ah! I thought the question was how they could have done the Joining before the Archdemon was killed. It sounded as if many people assumed that only its blood would qualify.

Well, we don't know what happens to the Archdemon's body when it's killed by a non-Warden -- we know what happens to the soul though. It just plays hop-scotch. -- nor do we know if the Archdemon's body had been killed by non-Wardens prior to the creation of the Wardens.

So while the blood of the stronger Darkspawn -- like generals and whatnot -- would work, I find it more likely that the blood of the Archdemon was consumed, given the habits of Dragon cults to drink the blood of a dragon. It's more likely then someone going "I wonder what their blood tastes like?" when they kill a high-ranking Darkspawn.

Assuming of course that: A) the Archdemon's body remained when killed by a non-Warden, even though the soul would've jumped and that some non-Wardens actually managed to kill the body.

Which is correct. Just drinking darkspawn blood only makes you an infected.
Drinking darkspawn blood prepared with lyrium - as is the case with the Warden Joining - is something entirely different, though.

Not really. Gaider said that all you need to do is drink sufficiently potent Darkspawn blood to become a Grey Warden. He never said lyrium was an absolute necessity in doing so.

He did however say that the Wardens magically treat the Joining. But he never said it was a necessary thing to do in order to become a Warden. Merely that it's done.

Imho, the only thing that should happen with "weak" darkspawn blood is that your abilities as a Grey Warden don't fully develop. The mightier the slain foe, the mightier the resulting Grey Warden. At least this is how it'd make sense to me.

Ehh... that'd seem a bit... weird to me and would just mean that anyone could be a Warden. I enjoy it as it is, where you can't just drink some mook Darkspawn's blood and expect to be a Warden, let alone expect you might live.

Avernus' research though has said that the power within the Taint is hidden and he's trying to uncover its secrets.

And it seems he can only do such a thing by inducing pain in the person, since he had to test the pain threshold for results.

And personally I still don't see the Joining as blood magic. Darkspawn blood is the source of the taint, not the source of the magic. The latter comes from the lyrium which is mixed into it. The Wardens might as well eat Ogre steaks with lyrium sauce; all that matters is that they get infected (but blood is the taint in its purest transferrable form).

In short, I see a difference between "blood magic" and "magic blood". I realize there are many ways to interpret the existing material, though. Perhaps some day the writers will clarify.

To me they're the same thing, and the game shows sufficient evidence to prove me right. Just because lyrium is involved doesn't automatically negate that it's blood magic. The Tevinter Magisters used lyrium as well as blood to perform what they wanted -- most notably, entering the Black City -- but it's still considered blood magic.

We know blood magic is about using blood -- either your blood or the blood of someone else -- to power your abilities. But it's also about gaining abilities from blood.

Blood magic became the latter eventually. At first, the Tevinter Magisters of old merely used it to power their normal spells, but they eventually saw that you could perform certain abilities by using blood and only blood. In short, they gained abilities from blood rather then powering up already existing ones.

The Joining -- both the Reaver Joining and the Warden Joining -- are the same thing. You gain abilities from consumption of ritually prepared blood.

Additionally, phylacteries are blood magic -- as confirmed by Gaider. What you're saying -- "magic blood isn't blood magic" would mean that the phylacteries aren't blood magic either, since it's just magic blood. But they are. My belief -- and the games/other media hints at this being true, but never outright confirms it -- is that the blood is laced with trace amounts of lyrium to help it function when it's near a mage.

1) We know phylacteries glow in the presence of a mage -- most notably seen in Redemption, but also confirmed in-game IIRC.
2) We know that lyrium glows -- as confirmed by Javaris
3) We know phylacteries are vials of blood -- obviously

Ergo, it's my belief that the Templars lace the phylacteries with lyrium so that they'll glow in the presence of the specific mage. And that doesn't diminish nor negate how they are blood magic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 mars 2012 - 09:56 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Tevinter's didn't "gain" any abilities through their blood. they merely realized that with blood magic, they could manipulate blood in ways, that would otherwise have proven fatal.

Technically blood magic seems to be only when blood is powering the spell. However, few are willing to see the difference whenever blood is involved. Mainly because it is hard, if not impossible, to see to difference most the time. So the Chantry takes a "better safe than sorry" approach to it.
In the case of phylacteries, we don't really have an intricate enough knowing of their workings and creation to truly say if they are blood magic. Regarding what Gaider said, it would appear that each individual's blood in the phylactery somehow helps powering the spell. Or Gaider may simply have been misunderstood/misquoted, as is all too often the case.

And by the way, we don't really have any evidence that the Reaver ritual is blood magic. We got a single line "ritually prepared blood", but last I checked ritually=l=magically so it really is a matter of interpretation.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Tevinter's didn't "gain" any abilities through their blood. they merely realized that with blood magic, they could manipulate blood in ways, that would otherwise have proven fatal.

Technically blood magic seems to be only when blood is powering the spell. However, few are willing to see the difference whenever blood is involved. Mainly because it is hard, if not impossible, to see to difference most the time. So the Chantry takes a "better safe than sorry" approach to it.
In the case of phylacteries, we don't really have an intricate enough knowing of their workings and creation to truly say if they are blood magic. Regarding what Gaider said, it would appear that each individual's blood in the phylactery somehow helps powering the spell. Or Gaider may simply have been misunderstood/misquoted, as is all too often the case.

And by the way, we don't really have any evidence that the Reaver ritual is blood magic. We got a single line "ritually prepared blood", but last I checked ritually=l=magically so it really is a matter of interpretation.

*Sigh*

First, the Tevinters did gain abilities through use of their blood. Abilities that could only be performed through blood magic.

Second, there is no "technically". Blood magic is not just about blood powering the spell, but gaining abilities through the use of blood.

Third, the phylacteries were called blood magic by Gaider himself. There is no "misquoting". The interview where he said it was recorded and transcribed.

Fourth, the Reaver ritual was called blood magic by the man writing the codex entry on Dragon Cults. The changes themselves offer abilities that any Blood Mage can perform as well.

If they can allow a non-mage to perform some abilities that are the same as what a Blood Mage can perform, then it's blood magic. There is no arguing that point.

Nizaris1 wrote...

Reaver ritual blood is not just any blood, it is the High Dragon blood believed to be Andraste. And Reavers have many mages, and don't forget Arcane Warrior is the Overseer. The candidate will be fainted the same like the Joining. Reaver also can hear the Dragon the same like Grey Warden hear the Archdemon

Who or what the High Dragon and Andraste really is? An Archdemon of something?

It just has to be the ritually prepared blood of a dragon. Any dragon. "Andraste" isn't the source for all Reavers everywhere. Merely the ones in the Haven cult, and that's only because she was allowing the cultists to drink the blood of her children.

And no, "Andraste" is not an Old God. But people in Thedas -- most notably the Architect IIRC -- have pondered what would happen if the Darkspawn found a regular High Dragon after the Old Gods have all died.

Also, for the bolded I've said the same thing before. You can also hear the same thing when facing Meredith, albeit it's very faint and often overshadowed by her dialogue.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 mars 2012 - 07:11 .

[Augustei]

@Nizaris1

- Why Reaver Overseer is an Arcane Warrior? - Simple gameplay design choice / oversight, not of any consequence
- Why Kolgrim claim the High Dragon is Andraste? -Because he was crazy
- Who Andraste really was? A Ferelden Barbarian of ancient times, Perhaps a powerful mage otherwise really the makers chosen

- What Reaver really is? Anyone who has drank the blood of a high dragon and gained abilities from it, usually a member of a dragoncult

- Where the Chantry originated from? Orlais, founded by its first Emperor Drakon
- Where the Templar come from? Merged with the chantry AFTER its founding, originally were known as the Inquisiton who hunted down mages across the land and were an independent order

- What Tevinter Imperium really is? ...An ancient Empire

- Where is Arlathan? Speculated to be near Tevinters eastern border with Antiva, or in the Northern Free Marcdhes
- What actually happen to Arlathan? Sunk below the surface of the earth with very powerful blood magic
- Why actually the Chantry have war with the Dalish? Because the Dalish were smashing Orlais in their war with them.. And because of what the Dalish did at the Orlesian town of Red Crossing (Possibly as a result of the chantry sending missionaries into the dales to convert the Dalish)
- Why the Chantry can tolerate the Joining? Not even Confirmed if they know about it, If they do they probably know the importance of the grey wardens and how all life will die without them
- What is the relationship between the Joining and Reaver ritual? Ethereal has pointed out a theory to this in this very thread
- How Grey Warden, Darkspawn, and Archdemon fit in all these? With most of your questions, probably not at all

[Augustei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Well, we don't know what happens to the Archdemon's body when it's killed by a non-Warden -- we know what happens to the soul
though. It just plays hop-scotch. -- nor do we know if the Archdemon's
body had been killed by non-Wardens prior to the creation of the
Wardens.

We do know what happens to it, it just drops to the ground dead as any other dragon, And we do know that the Archdemon was killed several times in the first blight by non-wardens before it was defeated by the wardens.

The way I see it is that only Archdemon blood can be used to create Grey Wardens without use of Lyrium, and other darkspawn blood including that of generals must have lyrium used to enhance the corruption. Because the Archdemons corrupt darkspawn blood is significantly more corrupt and concerntrated than that of all other Darkspawn.

[Lynata]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
So while the blood of the stronger Darkspawn -- like generals and whatnot -- would work, I find it more likely that the blood of the Archdemon was consumed, given the habits of Dragon cults to drink the blood of a dragon. It's more likely then someone going "I wonder what their blood tastes like?" when they kill a high-ranking Darkspawn.

Well, I find the alternative more likely than drinking the blood of a foe that has yet to be encountered in battle.

When it says "darkspawn blood" I take it as "darkspawn blood" and not "Archdemon blood", but I suppose it's a matter of interpretation.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Not really. Gaider said that all you need to do is drink sufficiently potent Darkspawn blood to become a Grey Warden. He never said lyrium was an absolute necessity in doing so. He did however say that the Wardens magically treat the Joining. But he never said it was a necessary thing to do in order to become a Warden. Merely that it's done.

Yes, really. You don't have to contradict me on principle when our sources state that lyrium has been used since the very first Joining ritual.

That you're basically saying that untreated darkspawn blood would turn random people into Grey Wardens instead of darkspawn is ... well, a weird thought. Why would they even put lyrium in there in the first place if it wasn't necessary - just for fun?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Ehh... that'd seem a bit... weird to me and would just mean that anyone could be a Warden. I enjoy it as it is, where you can't just drink some mook Darkspawn's blood and expect to be a Warden, let alone expect you might live.

I don't see what you're getting at. Where did I suggest people can drink darkspawn blood and expect to live?

Anyone surviving the Joining can be a Warden. I regard the lyrium as a necessary component enabling the chance of survival in the first place, turning an always-deadly taint into a potentially-deadly one.

In fact, given that all Grey Wardens still experience the Calling after ~20, 30 years and that they slowly transform into darkspawn then suggests to me that the lyrium is merely delaying the full effect of the taint. You get to hear the Archdemon and establish a "link" to the darkspawn hivemind without turning into one right away, but you will still turn.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
To me they're the same thing, and the game shows sufficient evidence to prove me right.

I know your opinion regarding the subject, but the simple fact that the ceremony involves blood is not "evidence".

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
We know blood magic is about using blood -- either your blood or the blood of someone else -- to power your abilities. But it's also about gaining abilities from blood.

Right. Just that in the course of the Joining you don't gain abilities from the blood, you gain them from the taint. The blood merely contains the taint in the purest form. It is a carrier.

It's like saying you get sick from saliva after kissing. You don't get sick from spit, you get sick from viruses in it.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Additionally, phylacteries are blood magic -- as confirmed by Gaider. What you're saying -- "magic blood isn't blood magic" would mean that the phylacteries aren't blood magic either, since it's just magic blood.

Exactly. Which is why David's offhand comment on this is confusing me - unless the spell actually is powered by the mage's blood, or he was talking of the Chantry's hypocrisy and not how it actually works.

It's either that or there has been another retcon I'm not yet aware of. Blood magic has, as far as I am concerned, always been explained as "magic drawing additional arcane energy from the blood of sentient victims". When the writers suddenly start to throw the Joining and Circle phylacteries (and possibly Reavers, though DA1 and 2 themselves still state it is something different) in there, they either need to change their descriptions of blood magic or the aforementioned rituals to avoid a contradiction.

Modifié par Lynata, 02 avril 2012 - 02:21 .

[xTemplarxCDx]

This just came to my head while reading this thread

According to Elven lore, the Old Gods "evil/bad gods" were tricked and sealed in the underworld "Black city" and the Good Gods were tricked and were sealed in the heavens "Golden city" by Fen'Heral to stop a war between the two factions and save the people of Thedas.

Dumat called out to the Tevinter mages and offered "Golden city" but lied and sent them to the "Black city" (Legacy gives evidence for this) thus releasing the Old Gods from the "Black city" and unleashing the darkspawn upon the world, meanwhile, the Good Gods are still trapped in the "Golden city".

Fen'Heral, who is possibly Flemeth, sees the Old Gods escape their prison and helps create the Grey Wardens, to save the people. This is what Fen'Heral was trying to do in the first place by sealing the gods away and stopping their war.

The Good Gods, like the Old Gods, call out from the heavens to mortals to do their biddings, thus we have Andraste (prophet of the Maker). The Good Gods wanted justice for what the mages did to the world, releasing the Old Gods, so they created or guided Andraste to create the Chantry and subjugate the mages and protect them from the Old Gods "callings"(mages are more vulnerable to the "callings" for the same reason they are vulnerable to demons and such).

You could say, but why would the Good Gods tell Andraste to tell the world that the darkspawn are a punishment for trying to reach the "Golden city"? They want people to think there are no other gods but them so they give themselves one entity, the Maker, and denounce the darkspawn as just punishment for reaching the "Golden city". The people wont believe there are any gods but the Maker, thus the people only worship the Maker (the Good Gods).

Note: in real life most gods created people to worship them so it makes sense if the Good Gods want to convince the people of Thedas that they are the only gods so they get all the worship for themselves, and the Old Gods get no one.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

First, the Tevinters did gain abilities through use of their blood. Abilities that could only be performed through blood magic.

They learned blood magic. They did not gain abilities through their blood. They learned it from demons. They learned blood magic, which allwoed them to manipulate blood in ways impossible otherwise. It is not an ability gained from blood.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Second, there is no "technically". Blood magic is not just about blood powering the spell, but gaining abilities through the use of blood.

 
Yes it is. And no it is not about gaining abilities from blood. Since that is not what blood magic does.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Third, the phylacteries were called blood magic by Gaider himself. There is no "misquoting". The interview where he said it was recorded and transcribed.

 
That havn't stopped people from misunderstanding him in the past, or still misquoting him.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Fourth, the Reaver ritual was called blood magic by the man writing the codex entry on Dragon Cults. The changes themselves offer abilities that any Blood Mage can perform as well. 

 
Oh, and all the codex entries are absolute truths now? Or perhaps he was just an ignorant man talking fo things he has no udnerstanding. And because of his Chantry teachings, called it for what he thought would describe it best? The possibilities are limitless.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

If they can allow a non-mage to perform some abilities that are the same as what a Blood Mage can perform, then it's blood magic. There is no arguing that point.

It isn't blood magic, if a non-mage can perform it. Simple as that. Nor are the spells the same at all. Just because they serve the same function, or share similarities, does NOT make them the same.

[Lynata]

 Stumbled across some more stuff whilst flipping through my books. Might be of interest to some.

Origin of the Joining

"Whether Carinus existed or not, the tale of his travels to recruit allies conceals another truth. The first would-be Wardens were doing more than getting the word out, they were also searching for more effective ways to fight. Most records say that Nakiri of the Donark Forest was the first one to suggest that the blood of the enemy could be a crucial tool. His people believed that consuming a foe's blood was a way to claim that enemy's strength for oneself. As the nascent Grey Wardens investigated this claim, many of the mages they consulted confirmed that there was power in blood. Blood magic was far crom uncommon in Tevinter at that time.

The nascent Grey Wardens experimented in secret. In addition to learning from Donark practices and Tevinter blood mages, they studied lore from ancient Arlathan. This knowledge was conveyed by elven slaves who provided it on the condition that the Grey Wardens would hold elves equal with the other races amongst their ranks, and turn their efforts to elven liberation once the Blight was defeated.

The Joining ritual the Grey Wardens crafted proved critical to their success. Those who underwent the ritual not only became immune to the darkspawn disease, but found that they could also sense the presence of the darkspawn and 'overhear' their unspoken communication. Indeed, this was the first real proof that the darkspawn were communally driven by a centralized motivating force.

The first Grey Wardens' legendary success at the Siege of Nordbotten is no historical exaggeration. They did in fact slaughter twenty or more times their own number. What history doesn't record is that their success was due, in part, to their enemies' disorientation. They found it nearly impossible to distinguish the newly Joined Grey Wardens from their own fellow darkspawn."

Prices Paid

"As the First Blight wore on, the Grey Wardens began to learn the price of the Joining. They suffered gruesome dreams and visions, ravenous hunger and - as years continued to pass - an increasingly irresistible compulsion to join with the darkspawn hordes. The darkspawn also learned, over time, to differentiate between their allies and the Grey Wardens. They even learned that they could sometimes detect the presence of unseen Wardens, just as the Wardens could detect them.

Despite these drawbacks, the Grey Wardens met with great success in the early years of their campaign against the Blight. A group of determined Anders soldiers even managed to slay Dumat while the dragon was on the run from a Warden offensive. Their celebrations were cut short when Dumat returned - apparently unharmed - a very short time later. Grey Warden scholars learned, in the years that followed, that the Archdemon's death had only forced its soul to relocate into the body of another darkspawn whose form it then twisted back into the shape it preferred. It seemed that as long as a single darkspawn remained, Dumat was immortal.

The Grey Wardens despaired. Then their Order proposed that the Wardens' subtle ties to the darkspawn might prove to be Thedas' salvation. If Dumat was slain by a Grey Warden, they theorized, then the Old God's dying spirit would rush into the Warden's body. Since a Warden's body already had a soul (as opposed to the soulless darkspawn), the resulting paradox would destroy both Warden and Archdemon.

Dumat's death at the hands of Grey Wardens at the Battle of the Silent Plains proved this idea correct, for the Archdemon did not return in the years that followed. The Order's histories do not record which Warden gave up his soul to destroy the Archdemon, for many Wardens struggled against Dumat, and the dragon's very death throes slew seven or more of the Order's warriors."

The Joining Ritual

"The ritual that inducts new Grey Wardens is a secret rite about which little is known beyond the Order's ranks for a very good reason: it taints or kills those who submit to it.

During the ritual, recruits drink from a chalice containing a mixture of darkspawn blood, lyrium, herbs, and often a drop of blood from an Archdemon. This potent mixture kills outright many who imbibe it. Those who survive are forever after Grey Wardens, connected to the darkspawn by the corrupted blood they've consumed.

A recruit to whom the Joining Ritual and its ramifications have been explained must go forward and drink from the chalice. There is no turning back; those who refuse are put to the sword by the Grey Wardens overseeing the ceremony to preserve the Order's secrets. [...]

The actual survival rate of those who go through with the Joining (not including those who try to backpedal and are killed) is only about one-quarter to one-third. This is much of the reason the ranks of the Grey Wardens are so few. [...]"