309 réponses à ce sujet

[Delta_V2]

ChampDude wrote...

Oh good lord. See, I try not to think about that sequence, but every time someone point something out it gets even worse. How can so many things be wrong with such a small sequence? It's actually kind of impressive

If I hadn't seen the devs talking so much about dlc (not to mention that stupid message at the end of the game) and more games in the Mass Effect universe, I would have called this a "torch the series and run".  I never would have believed they could have screwed the ending up so badly on accident.

[E_rik]

gmboy902 wrote...

Starchild logic.

In order to prevent synthetic life from wiping out organic life, he creates synthetic life to wipe out organic life. In order to prevent rebellious synthetic creations, he creates synthetics.

Yo dawg, we herd u like synthetic life and destroying organic life...

Modifié par E_rik, 28 mars 2012 - 10:24 .

[The Angry One]

eventhewaves wrote...

BloodClaw95 wrote...

N-No. It's not something you can comprehend...

This isn't complicated!  What else is there to understand?!

[Reaper horn spam]

[mcsupersport]

IsaacShep wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

Are you sure??

Yes I am. Legion told what Reapers really are in ME2 already: www.youtube.com/watch Reapers ain't AIs. They have hive'collective organic mind

Nothing in that changes the fact that they are a organic construct, no a biological evolution.  They are thus an synthetic organic creation that mimics a hive computer mind.  Still contructed and as such should be still under the same idea that the created will always rebel against the creator, by the Catalyst logic.  They are not by the processing saving actual brains in the mush you see in ME2, they MAY be taking imprints to upload into the organic computer but it would still be a construct and an AI just one based off orgainic minds instead of full silicon chips and planning.  I would think the horror of finding out my body is gone and now I am some immortal harvestor for a monster in the Citadel would encourage me to rebel...but that is just me.

[Ziggeh]

IsaacShep wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

Are you sure??

Yes I am. Legion told what Reapers really are in ME2 already: www.youtube.com/watch Reapers ain't AIs. They have hive'collective organic mind

They're uploaded organic minds, which makes them no longer organic. They ceased to be the thing they were and were either replaced or transposed into a constructed environment. They are intelligences that are artificial. I think the distinction is wooly at best.

[Untamed_skies]

Ziggeh wrote...

Untamed_skies wrote...

And since all his solutions leaves organics alive, (If he can fuse synthetic and organic life into one in a split second I'm willing to believe he has super powers that prevent teh relays from destroyinge verything). We don't have a right to complain. But opinions are fun for that exact reason.

Oh I still think his logic is flawed, but in one small but critical way, which wierdly sounds like the only nice part: the application of value to organic life in general, rather than specific.

Ooh of course, I think it's flawed too. I don't think it could be anymore obvious that the reapers and their creater/controller look down on us as if we might as well be puppies. How in the world would they be able to identify with us on that basis? What most stories do in when the lowly mortal man stands in front of what might as well be god, (again fuses organic and synthetic life in a split second might as well just be a god) is that usually they will attempt to show a god that the god's logic is flawed. That didn't happen, they just went along with it.

[stysiaq]

IsaacShep wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

But one other nail in the coffin of his argument is for the Catalyst to be around that many millions(billions) of years then he is an AI himself....

Now he says an AI will destroy all life, and thus his solution is to only destroy advanced life to protect primitive life, yet here is an AI(the Catalyst) that has been around millions(billions) of years, controlling the most advanced warships in history and he is "protecting" organic life.  So his premise is faulty at best, and plain loco at worst(probably).

Who says Catalyst is an AI? If he is an AI, then it is indeed dumb, but if he is not, then the concept of him and his solution is valid. So far there's nothing said that he is an AI.

Mass Effect wiki:

"The Catalyst is an ancient and powerful artificial intelligence of unknown origin. It resides within the Citadel."

don't know if it is legit, but I've seen several timest the statement that shiny bastard is an AI.
And if he is not, it makes it even dumber. What are the other option? God? Ghost? Spirit of Christmas Past?

[mcsupersport]

IsaacShep wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

But one other nail in the coffin of his argument is for the Catalyst to be around that many millions(billions) of years then he is an AI himself....

Now he says an AI will destroy all life, and thus his solution is to only destroy advanced life to protect primitive life, yet here is an AI(the Catalyst) that has been around millions(billions) of years, controlling the most advanced warships in history and he is "protecting" organic life.  So his premise is faulty at best, and plain loco at worst(probably).

Who says Catalyst is an AI? If he is an AI, then it is indeed dumb, but if he is not, then the concept of him and his solution is valid. So far there's nothing said that he is an AI.

Then what is he??  A orgainic brain saved for millions(billions) of years??  Another reaper style construct??  Constructed orgainic brain is still an AI, not a biological developed entity.  AI is simply meaning it is artifical and something created is in my book Artifical all the way.

[The Angry One]

It doesn't matter whether spacebrat is an AI, VI, the actual ghost of ventbrat or an alien from Zeta Reticuli.
His reasoning and solution are still idiotic.

[Arik7]

minormiracle wrote...

So I've seen a lot of great arguments against the poorly written ending, including the hilarious" yo dawg I heard you didn't wanna be killed by synthetics," but going over the dialogue again I realized the starchild contradicted himself even earlier.

Starchild: I control the Reapers. They are my solution.
Shepard: Solution? To what?
Starchild: Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators.

If the Starchild created a solution to a problem, and that solution was the Reapers, how come the Reapers haven't rebelled against the Starchild yet? They are without doubt the longest living civilization within the galaxy, yet they haven't turned against their creator.

The obvious counterargument is that the Starchild didn't create the Reapers. He found the "solution" to his problem only after the Reapers had already turned on whatever organic race created them. That still implies the most powerful rebellious synthetic race in the history of the galaxy can either be utterly controlled and put towards any purpose, or that the Reapers can only be "controlled" and used in a very limited manner.

If the Reapers can be used in any number of ways, then the Starchild has simply been misusing them this whole time by actively bringing about the termination of biological civilizations' development (the same end result as self induced synthetic rebellion) rather than intervening to preserve their potential for growth. We're still back to the yo dawg solution.

If the Reapers cannot be controlled to perform some subset of physically possible actions, such as preserving organic life without terminating the potential for growth, then the Starchild's own claim of controlling the Reapers is self invalidating. The "control" ending becomes unworkable.

If preserving organic life without terminating the potential for growth past a certain point is impossible regardless of what else the Reapers might have done, then the Starchild never found a solution to his problem. His earlier solution was never workable at any time in history.

In all cases, the Starchild's previous actions are either indefensible according to his own stated intentions (I failed to enact the optimal solution for preserving organic life), self invalidating in their premise (I never fully controlled the Reapers), or failed non solutions (organic civilizations are doomed regardless of what I do).

nnnn...nnnnnnoooooooooooooo.....This is obviously beyond your comprehension.

  SPACE MAGIC!  

[Ziggeh]

Untamed_skies wrote...

What most stories do in when the lowly mortal man stands in front of what might as well be god, (again fuses organic and synthetic life in a split second might as well just be a god) is that usually they will attempt to show a god that the god's logic is flawed. That didn't happen, they just went along with it.

Yeah, I would have been dissapointed if it had been a boss fight or something as well, shouting at Cthuhlu is a classic that should have been observed.

[Unit-Alpha]

OP, you get my solemn appreciation for this.

It is a massive plothole that I'd never heard of before.

[sheppard7]

Evil_medved wrote...

uzivatel wrote...

edit: cant read

Xandurpein wrote...

The Starchild's reasoning is just faulty on so many levels, as is Shepard's surrender to his choices...

What other option does Shepard have? 

middle finger never fails.

There should have been an option for Shep to give kid the same treatment as Marauder Shields.

[AlexXIV]

Ziggeh wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

Are you sure??

Yes I am. Legion told what Reapers really are in ME2 already: www.youtube.com/watch Reapers ain't AIs. They have hive'collective organic mind

They're uploaded organic minds, which makes them no longer organic. They ceased to be the thing they were and were either replaced or transposed into a constructed environment. They are intelligences that are artificial. I think the distinction is wooly at best.

We don't even know what they are or how they work, but obviously they are 'controlled' by the starchild. Which is probably an AI unless it is a ghost from the machine/past or something.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 28 mars 2012 - 10:32 .

[JasmoVT]

Of course what he says is inconsistent, the star child is clearly an unreliable narrative. A projection of some conciousness, reaper, other?, using the form of the child Shepard saw in the opening in order to garner sympathy. An unreliable narrator is not a flaw, it is a standard literary device. The reapers are also unreliable narrators

[IGSR]

minormiracle wrote...

So I've seen a lot of great arguments against the poorly written ending, including the hilarious" yo dawg I heard you didn't wanna be killed by synthetics," but going over the dialogue again I realized the starchild contradicted himself even earlier.

Starchild: I control the Reapers. They are my solution.
Shepard: Solution? To what?
Starchild: Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators.

If the Starchild created a solution to a problem, and that solution was the Reapers, how come the Reapers haven't rebelled against the Starchild yet? They are without doubt the longest living civilization within the galaxy, yet they haven't turned against their creator.

Perhaps the catalyst did create the reapers, and perhaps the reapers already rebelled against him.  Maybe that explains his conviction that the created will always rebel.

If the Reapers can be used in any number of ways, then the Starchild has simply been misusing them this whole time by actively bringing about the termination of biological civilizations' development (the same end result as self induced synthetic rebellion) rather than intervening to preserve their potential for growth. We're still back to the yo dawg solution.

The fear is that unchecked synthetic rebellion will not just stop at the advanced civs, and not just terminate organics' development, but organics period. 

Gotta snip back the old growth every once and a while to make way for new growth.  If growth is never checked, life will eventually choke itself to death.

To a control freak like the catalyst (and considering the scale on which this being exists), it's better to overcompensate than to leave room for error.  Sounds harsh and illogical to beings on our scale.  Tough for us to judge what the truly optimal solution was, though, if not what the catalyst enacted.  Does a soapy hand-washing sound optimal to a thriving colony of bacteria on your hands?  Why shouldn't it, it can't potentially kill all bacteria everywhere?  They not might see it that way, though.

In other words, Yo dawg, cyclical growth by its very nature preserves the potential for growth & renders it reliably sustainable. 

If the Reapers cannot be controlled to perform some subset of physically possible actions, such as preserving organic life without terminating the potential for growth, then the Starchild's own claim of controlling the Reapers is self invalidating. The "control" ending becomes unworkable.

Isn't that what the cycle accomplishes, though?  Organic life is preserved, potential for growth retained.

Also, perhaps you forget the crucible?  The catalyst may or may not have been able to wholly control the reapers prior to joining with the crucible, but as he says, it gives him new possibilities.  Control -- even a deeper form of control than that wielded by the catalyst --  remains workable, thanks to the addition of the crucible's power.

Modifié par IGSR, 28 mars 2012 - 10:38 .

[Ziggeh]

AlexXIV wrote...

We don't even know what they are or how they work, but obviously they are 'controlled' by the starchild. Which is probably an AI unless it is a ghost from the machine/past or something.

True, but those are fairly simple assertions. Whatever form they take, it's constructed.

[felipejiraya]

hand-o_death547 wrote...

This is one of the reasons I believe the indoc. theory. Bioware couldn't have been writing this crap with no one saying anything.

+1

[shepskisaac]

stysiaq wrote...

Mass Effect wiki:

Yeah, Mass Effect wiki. Run by fans and full of assumptions.

mcsupersport wrote...

Then what is he??  A orgainic brain saved for millions(billions) of years??  Another reaper style construct??  Constructed orgainic brain is still an AI, not a biological developed entity.  AI is simply meaning it is artifical and something created is in my book Artifical all the way.

He's most likely a reaper himself, or has similar gestalt-mind. Or he is a VI of the organic creator(s) of the Reapers (Vigil says hi). Thorian has lived for how many years now? And he's organic. Right now you're just trying to find a reason to support "yo dawg I created synthetics to protect organics from synthetics" 'cause it suits your "Bioware made total nonsense" argument and you argue everything even if it has precedence in the lore. And you want to include organic geslalt-minds into AI definition. Sorry but it's silly to me. Like I said, if the Catalyst is an AI, then the concept is indeed idiotic. But nothing proves he's an AI, especially considering he refers to himself and Reapers as "we", hinting that they're similar.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 28 mars 2012 - 10:48 .

[SilentPhenomed]

Catalyst commands the Reapers but it didn't say it created ALL of the reapers. It commands them. And it's an AI, another synthetic. Catalyst speaks metaphorically, created=synthetics, and creators=organics.

It's not a contradiction, too many people here are jumping to conclusions. I still would like a more...elaborate and strong ending to this series. It's acceptable to me at the moment, but just barely. And I only like it because I'm able to completely understand it 100% while many many many haters don't understand it 100% (why were the mass relays destroyed? really? you should know the answer to this).

[shepskisaac]

SilentPhenomed wrote...

Catalyst commands the Reapers but it didn't say it created ALL of the reapers. It commands them. And it's an AI, another synthetic.

Synthetic does not automatically means AI. And it's not said anywhere in the game that the Catalyst is an AI

[CavScout]

Nighthunteer wrote...

minormiracle wrote...
Starchild: I control the Reapers. They are my solution.
Shepard: Solution? To what?
Starchild: Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators.

If
the Starchild created a solution to a problem, and that solution was
the Reapers, how come the Reapers haven't rebelled against the Starchild
yet?

Woah, didn't even cross my mind! That is a nice catch!

Contex is a pain I know.... but the context is sythetics and organics....

[Mr Indivisible]

SilentPhenomed wrote...

Catalyst commands the Reapers but it didn't say it created ALL of the reapers. It commands them. And it's an AI, another synthetic. Catalyst speaks metaphorically, created=synthetics, and creators=organics.

It's not a contradiction, too many people here are jumping to conclusions. I still would like a more...elaborate and strong ending to this series. It's acceptable to me at the moment, but just barely. And I only like it because I'm able to completely understand it 100% while many many many haters don't understand it 100% (why were the mass relays destroyed? really? you should know the answer to this).

Poor assumption that most people don't understand it. I'm sure most people do understand it. Yes the ending reached, but it failed horribly. The concept is you reset the cycle and everyone suffers so the future can be saved. 

Its racial, genocidal, and fascist. It also fails to provide any closure whatsoever, and completely breaks the suspension of disbelief for many people.