309 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeStrike8]

IsaacShep wrote...

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

So what do you think it is? A person? A computer? Many computers? A hallucination?
The Starchild is either a person (very, very unlikely) or a computer capable of thinking for itself and modifying its own code, as was evidenced by the manner in which it 'gave Shepard options'. That fits the Mass Effect definition of an AI perfectly.

I think it's like the Reapers - a collective organic mind. He does refer to himself and Reapers as 'we' several times after all. Or he could be a VI of the original creator, like Vigil. In both cases, he wouldn't be an AI.

And he didn't change himself to give Shep options. The Crucible changed him. He says it himself.

No it does not. It specifically refers to itself as an individual repeatedly.
"I am the catalyst."
"The Reapers are my solution."
"I created the cycle..."
"The Crucible changed me."
All indications of a single personality. Whether or not that personality is made up of several programs like Legion and whether or not it takes input from the Reapers its commands is different, but the Starchild is still a single being that's lived for billions of years. An AI, in other words.
The premise of my statement hinges on assuming that the starchild is a lying wanker. Anything it says must be asumed to be false until proven otherwise. You're certainly free to disagree with me, but if you want to do that, you need to first convince me that it isn't lying before you can say 'he says it himself', because until you do, I'll just assume that he's not being straight with us.

[minormiracle]

IsaacShep wrote...

minormiracle wrote...

If Reapers are synthetics but not AI, then whoever built the Reapers already solved the AI problem independently in their own origin cycle. The fact that the first cycle started without Reapers and ended in Synthesis and not the destruction of all organics at the hands of AI invalidates the Starchild's own "genocidal AI rebellion is inevitable" hypothesis.

But Reapers are not the kind of synthetic beings that get created if Shep takes Synthesis ending. Reapers' minds are organic, based on organic DNA, just wrapped in machine bodies. That's not much different than what Shep is after Lazarus Project. It's not the "new organic/AI mixture DNA" thingy that is suppoused to be created in Synthesis ending. It's of course all super space magic (lol new DNA framework) but within the realm of this space magic, it is clear that Reapers are not the kind of synthesis that can solve the problem. After all, reapers get changed too in the green ending no? If they were the same kind of synthesis, there would be no change in them.

The Reapers are either AI or they are not. If they are AI, then they didn't destroy all organic life in previous cycles. Starchild is wrong. If they are not AI, then their own origin timeline ended in Reapers and not some kind of AI destroying all organic life. Starchild is still wrong. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Going strictly by what the Reapers and the Starchild have told you, if the Reapers can tolerate their own existence then they should be able to tolerate other races independently solving the AI problem like they once did.

[minormiracle]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

minormiracle wrote...
*Snip*

Okay that didn't work.

Yeah I agree. There's no way the Starchild can be telling you the truth because there's no way it can be the truth. We can only respond to the how's and why's of the lies with lots of speculation from everyone, but the fact that he isn't telling the truth is I think undeniable.

But this does raise new problems, in that Bioware has forced players to follow the directives of a liar. If players are smart enough to figure out that a character is lying, then it's poor form to force their character to think otherwise, especially if you've made a point of allowing players to control what said character does until that point.
In the end, I feel as if the ending situation has largely become unsalvageable, aside from the indoctrination theory, and even that is tenuous at best.
Dangerous ground, Bioware. Dangerous, dangerous ground...

"I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense!"

And Bioware are surprised why fans are angry.

[Admiral H. Cain]

FemmeShep wrote...

Get out of here with your logic and facts.

This. 

Seriously, though, whenever a "surprise" deus ex machina is introduced in a story, I immediately turn off the part of my brain thart does the thinking stuff.  Reason and logic are thrown out of the window and nuked, repeatedly. 
 
For those that watched Battlestar: Galatica, you know Kara Thrace played the role of a deus ex machina. It worked because there was a TON of foreshadowing:

1) Leoben (#2) tells her repeatedly throughout the series that she has a "special destiny." 

2) Symbolism - The pattern she drew throughout her life was seen repeatedly in important places. 

3) She dies and comes back to life without any knowledge of it happening, and in the meantime, she finds Earth. 

These are just a few examples, but I think you get the idea. 

Carry on.

Modifié par Admiral H. Cain, 29 mars 2012 - 04:06 .

[granyte]

technicaly in BSG Hear was the deus ex machina when you think of it
she is the reason why the cylon and human got into a final fight that ended it and she is the shape of things toc ome

or wait no the BSG it self is the deux ex machina because it's the opera house

or wait no the final 5 are the deus ex machina cause they have the solution to the way to earth


no please don't compare BSG to the poor way it was introduced in ME3 in BSG everything was designed to screw with your mind but not in a way that you find dumb and useless like ME3

Modifié par granyte, 29 mars 2012 - 04:09 .

[shepskisaac]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

No it does not. It specifically refers to itself as an individual repeatedly.
"I am the catalyst."
"The Reapers are my solution."
"I created the cycle..."
"The Crucible changed me."

Yes it does:
"WE harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone. Just as WE left your people alive the last time WE were here."
"WE helped them ascend blah blah"
"Without US to stop it, synthetics will destroy organics blah blah"
"You want to destroy US blah blah"

SnakeStrike8 wrote...
You're certainly free to disagree with me, but if you want to do that, you need to first convince me that it isn't lying before you can say 'he says it himself', because until you do, I'll just assume that he's not being straight with us.

Yet you believe him 100% when he says "I/mine" indicating singular personality? What if he's lying about that too? You're falling into your own argument you try to use against my interpretation

[sheppard7]

If the Reapers are here to harvest organics that can make synthetics who will rebel and destroy everything, then isn't it a paradox? If the Reapers are in fact synthetics but did NOT destroy everything, why would they believe another synthetic will destroy everything so they must harvest the organics first?

[Admiral H. Cain]

granyte wrote...

technicaly in BSG Hear was the deus ex machina when you think of it
she is the reason why the cylon and human got into a final fight that ended it and she is the shape of things toc ome

or wait no the BSG it self is the deux ex machina because it's the opera house

or wait no the final 5 are the deus ex machina cause they have the solution to the way to earth


no please don't compare BSG to the poor way it was introduced in ME3 in BSG everything was designed to screw with your mind but not in a way that you find dumb and useless like ME3

1) I didn't say Kara Thrace was the only deus ex machina in the series. Some stories utilize dei ex machina (more than one), and I agree that Hera was also a deus ex machina, but she was always built up to be one. BSG always had a "mystical" feel to it, so using dei ex machina is perfectly fine, as long it's justified and foreshadowed. 

2) Err, what?

3) The Final Five are built up to be dei ex machina, but they turn out not to be. (I thought this was particularly brilliant).

4) I'm not comparing BSG to Mass Effect, I'm simply pointing out how deus/dei ex machina are properly integrated into a story.

Modifié par Admiral H. Cain, 29 mars 2012 - 04:57 .

[AkeasharK]

2484Stryker wrote...

I wonder how many people who enjoyed the ending are also avid watchers of Fox News.

I enjoyed the ending and despise Fox, The Daily Terror and the rest of his right wing media ogliarchy. In fact, its why I think for myself and don't jump on the bandwagon of watching faulty youtube videos of people ranting who contradict themselves and ignore plot points.

[MaverickPerry]

shep214 wrote...

we can conclude that starchild was the biggest fail character in gaming history.

[Reptilian Rob]

100% truth.

[thesnake777]

That Kid Is NOT CANON ........
He is a giant contradiction....everything that comes out of his mouth is Lies...

[jinxter69]

Mind = Blown...great catch OP. I knew he was contradicting himself when I ended the Geth/Quarian War and encouraged EDI to have a relationship with Joker...I had proved him wrong in those instances yet I never caught his opening speech was self-invalidating.

[Admiral H. Cain]

2484Stryker wrote...

I wonder how many people who enjoyed the ending are also avid watchers of Fox News.

I don't like Fox (or any MSM for that matter), but this is the dumbest thing I've heard all day. 

[Asuka Bianchini]

He says "I control them", not that he CREATED them. In the control ending, Shepard becomes thx one in control and Shepard had no idea of how to create reapers or w/e

[minormiracle]

Asuka Bianchini wrote...

He says "I control them", not that he CREATED them. In the control ending, Shepard becomes thx one in control and Shepard had no idea of how to create reapers or w/e

"They are my solution" sure makes it sound like he created them.  Also, if you read the second half of my post you would have seen that even if he didn't create them, his actions still make no sense.

[Lyrandori]

No no no, look, I think you're forgetting something.

We, the players, are wrong. Because Mac Walters, Casey and BioWare got it right, THEY know what they are doing, WE are mere sheep consuming their COHERENT artistic integrity. Everything holds, all the dots ARE connected, there's NO plot holes, there's only TRUTH, evidence, sense and continuity. The Mass Effect trilogy is the best thing since sliced bread and Krogan plushies.

[semiwise]

Starchild: I control the Reapers. They are my solution.
Shepard: Solution? To what?
Starchild: Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators.

If the Starchild created a solution to a problem, and that solution was the Reapers, how come the Reapers haven't rebelled against the Starchild yet? They are without doubt the longest living civilization within the galaxy, yet they haven't turned against their creator.

StarChild is the AI that controls the synthetic reapers, the same way Windows 7 controls the processes inside your computer.

Now how exactly do you see your computer turning agains Windows 7?

[Fenrisfil]

Starchild also says about the citadel "It is my home" and then a moment later "It's part of me". So he lives inside himself?

Basically Starchild is just full of ****.

[CYRAX470]

Jesus, these endings spawn more and more plotholes every second. How much more can there be?

Modifié par CYRAX470, 29 mars 2012 - 07:54 .

[minormiracle]

semiwise wrote...

Starchild: I control the Reapers. They are my solution.
Shepard: Solution? To what?
Starchild: Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators.

If the Starchild created a solution to a problem, and that solution was the Reapers, how come the Reapers haven't rebelled against the Starchild yet? They are without doubt the longest living civilization within the galaxy, yet they haven't turned against their creator.

StarChild is the AI that controls the synthetic reapers, the same way Windows 7 controls the processes inside your computer.

Now how exactly do you see your computer turning agains Windows 7?

Lock ups, crashes, memory leaks, device conflicts. Is wiping out civilizations in the name of saving them from AI an uncontrolled bug or a horribly implemented feature?

[Alphadestrious]

Huge plothole and theending was ill conceived. It does not make sense at all, it's almost as if BioWare was rushed to complete the game.

Modifié par Alphadestrious, 29 mars 2012 - 08:05 .

[Xarathox]

Nykara wrote...

Ascension is supposed to explain all? The last step to evolution - moving on to a higher plane of existence. Of course thats not what we want, but they don't seem to care less what people do or don't want.

The Reapers are part organic, part machine. So whilst they are created they are not the synthetics that will wipe out all organic life in the sense that the Star Child meant it. That is why he/she/it views them as the solution.

I am pretty sure however, that the Reapers can only be controlled as much as they allow it. I don't think that means complete control as such. It also seems like a pretty ****ty solution to me.

Don't get me wrong. I think the whole ending was pretty crappy. Shepard should have been able to choose to tell the kid to get lost. I can, however poke a few holes in the post here.

What "ascension" actually entails for any given species is entirely subjective. One race very well might end up as synthetic/organic hybrids, while another may shed physical forms entirely and exist as pure energy. What the reapers and the starbrat are doing, is forcing an evolutionary chain on sapient life forms that they likely never would have traveled down.

Indeed, if being reaperized is the starbrats solution to evolution, and he/it controls the reapers existance, then that's not evolution... it's imprisonment.

Modifié par Xarathox, 29 mars 2012 - 08:24 .

[Bigdoser]

Hence why I picked the destroy option.

[WolfyZA]

Found this on a random gaming site.. Proving a posiible existance of  the "Star childs" since ME1, so this couldve been the plan from the start?

http://loudmouthedga...ss-effect-1.jpg

Modifié par WolfyZA, 29 mars 2012 - 08:33 .