309 réponses à ce sujet

[ZLurps]

IsaacShep wrote...

Yes it does:
"WE harvest advanced civilizations, leaving the younger ones alone. Just as WE left your people alive the last time WE were here."
"WE helped them ascend blah blah"
"Without US to stop it, synthetics will destroy organics blah blah"
"You want to destroy US blah blah"

One theory that might work could be that originally Citadel whatevert developed Reapers for something else, however Reapers indeed revolted against it and what followed was some sort of synthesis, bit like a green ending. Citadel whatever and Reapers became one consiousnes, AI, whatever. One consequence of merging was that it became buggy.

Preserving organic life, ascending them, why only sentient and most advanced beings? Why to do it at all? Cloning would be far more effecient way of procreation, compared to harvesting advanced species.
If Reapers ascend to preserve what they do that in case of synthetic life destroying all organic life, and  reseed organic life, bacteria would be enough, it's organic life. Then if galaxy would be taken over by synthetics that rivals Reapers would Reapers battle synthetics at all or just take it that they failed?

Actually, scratch first sentence. No matter how I try to approach this, all I can come up with is nonsense.

[Ieldra]

Nice catch, OP. I've always thought something was inherently flawed about that reasoning, even discounting the geth/quarian counterevidence, but couldn't put my finger on it.

This has now offically become my favorite thread about the ending. Nowhere is the flawed logic explained so succintly.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 mars 2012 - 08:48 .

[Ziggeh]

minormiracle wrote...Are the Reapers themselves the synthetic victors of an AI rebellion? If yes, then prior rebellions can prevent later ones and preserve organic life. Thus the Starchild's claim that Synthetics will destroy all organic life if left unchecked is false.

You realise what you said there means he's wrong that Synthetics will destroy all organic life if left unchecked because they can be checked? That he's wrong because he's right?

minormiracle wrote...If not, then the Reapers' self appointed task is not as necessary that they claim. Their own origin cycle lead to the development of Reaper synthesis and not the destruction of all organic life, so why is it impossible for a later cycle to achieve similar solutions on their own without Reaper meddling?

How do we know their own development didn't lead to the death of all organic life? And how would one example, one anecdote prove him false?
And it's not impossible, I think that's rather missing the point.
Probabilites given enough time become inevitabilities. Infinite monkeys and all that. He is attempting to remove the possibility, not prevent it in each instance of synthetic.

minormiracle wrote...
In which case it would be far more efficient and less risky to eliminate sentient life at the earliest stages of technological development, rather than wait for an arbitrary 50,000 years until organics are making starships of their own or giant ground based guns that can blow you out of the sky. Why didn't the Reapers wipe out any race as soon as they started making tools, or building cities, or discovering fission/fusion/dark energy manipulation, or achieving space flight, or breaking the lightspeed barrier, or building AIs? Why is the most advanced race in the galaxy not smart enough to achieve their goals without risking even the slightest chance of a butt kicking?

Indeed, it's an important question, as is why they would advance such civilisations both increasing their ability to fight back and reducing the time they might be allowed. 
I think the argument could be made that the answer is the Citadel. By shutting down the relays and having access to all their maps and data the process becomes incredibly efficient. It requires far less effort and energy than a continual presence at all points in the galaxy.
That still leaves the question of risk, but maybe they're just arrogant. The other Reapers we've talked to certainly have been.

minormiracle wrote...
Then why cycles of 50,000 years? This is extra dumb considering races develop technology at different rates, and many like the Asari and the Humans also got jump started by a previous cycle in diverse ways. Why not intervene as soon as AI creation is underway, or an AI rebellion is underway,

Sovereign? That's exactly what they do, it just happens to be around 50k years between instances. Presumably because of The Pattern, which is never raally elaborated on. 

minormiracle wrote...or wait it out and see if organics can solve the problem on their own like the proto-reaper organics did in the first cycle,

If they let technological progress surpass them they can't inact any solution.

minormiracle wrote...Wouldn't all of those options make more sense than sitting out in dark space for an arbitrary self imposed timeout while all kinds of organic based "chaos" is happening if your goal is to prevent AI ourbreaks from destroying all organic life?

That rather depends upon what exactly they place value in. Which is the major thing that's not answered. 
They value organic life in general, are keen on diverse genetic and impressed by individuals. I don't personally see any key assumption that fits neatly into their equation, but maybe that's a lack of imagination on my part.

[WeAreLegionWTF]

OP speaks wisdom.

[Calamity]

WeAreLegionWTF wrote...

OP speaks wisdom.

Agreed

[minormiracle]

Ziggeh wrote...

minormiracle wrote...Are the Reapers themselves the synthetic victors of an AI rebellion? If yes, then prior rebellions can prevent later ones and preserve organic life. Thus the Starchild's claim that Synthetics will destroy all organic life if left unchecked is false.

You realise what you said there means he's wrong that Synthetics will destroy all organic life if left unchecked because they can be checked? That he's wrong because he's right?

If Reapers are a race of unchecked synthetics then they never destroyed all organic life and the Starchild is wrong. If the Reapers are synthetics held in check then the Starchild has been using them extremely inefficiently for their designated goal of stopping AIs and he's still wrong. Neither outcome explains the Starchild's reasoning.

Ziggeh wrote...

minormiracle wrote...If not, then the Reapers' self appointed task is not as necessary that they claim. Their own origin cycle lead to the development of Reaper synthesis and not the destruction of all organic life, so why is it impossible for a later cycle to achieve similar solutions on their own without Reaper meddling?

How do we know their own development didn't lead to the death of all organic life? And how would one example, one anecdote prove him false?
And it's not impossible, I think that's rather missing the point.
Probabilites given enough time become inevitabilities. Infinite monkeys and all that. He is attempting to remove the possibility, not prevent it in each instance of synthetic.

If the Reapers did lead to the death of all organic life, how come there's still organic life around? If the "Reaper solution" against the AI problem is inevitable, why force it? If the destruction of all organic life without Reaper intervention is merely a possibility, why does the Starchild say "always?"
Again, the Starchild's reasoning makes no sense. When he starts throwing around the words "all" and "always," one counterexample is all that's needed to invalidate his claims.

Ziggeh wrote...

minormiracle wrote...
Then why cycles of 50,000 years? This is extra dumb considering races develop technology at different rates, and many like the Asari and the Humans also got jump started by a previous cycle in diverse ways. Why not intervene as soon as AI creation is underway, or an AI rebellion is underway,

Sovereign? That's exactly what they do, it just happens to be around 50k years between instances. Presumably because of The Pattern, which is never raally elaborated on.

All of those events occured long before the Reaper invasion in this cycle. Reapers were also blown out of the sky in previous cycles, and now it's happening again. Justifiable arrogance due to technological superiority I can understand, but repeatedly taking fatal risks for the sake of an arbitrary schedule is mind numbingly stupid.

Ziggeh wrote...
That rather depends upon what exactly they place value in. Which is the major thing that's not answered.
They value organic life in general, are keen on diverse genetic and impressed by individuals. I don't personally see any key assumption that fits neatly into their equation, but maybe that's a lack of imagination on my part.

When you can't make out the intention of a character even when he flat out tells you what they are, that's usually a pretty good sign of bad writing.

[walrusVI]

love the chart

[Lightfox]

Forgive me if this has already been pointed out, but...

If the Reapers were created by Starchild, according to his logic, they will eventually rebel against him. Still according to him, at this point, Reapers will become “the chaos”. They will eventually wipe out organic life.
So, in order to prevent chaos, the first thing Starchild should do is to ask Reapers to destroy themselves, since they are actually the greatest threat of the galaxy.
But without Reapers, Starchild can’t prevent organics to create synthetics anymore. He needs Reapers, so he can’t ask them to destroy themselves.
To sum this up, Starchild needs the Reapers to be alive and dead at the same time.

Now, if the Reapers were not created by Starchild, they probably already rebelled against their creators. Since he’s able to control them, he should be able to control any new synthetic race who will rebel against their creators.
This would negate the need to destroy advanced organic civilizations.

Did i missed something ?

Modifié par Lightfox, 29 mars 2012 - 09:47 .

[Clayless]

He never said he created them, he said he controls them.

[Tietj]

What I would like explained is why the Catalyst cares at all. What stake does it have in preserving organic life in this galaxy?

[Foxcat]

 Well done OP.  Add it to the list of why the ending is awful.

[Ryleck]

Pretty much what a was thinking. Your chart explains it very well. But I'd change "Civilization destroying AI rebellions not inevitable" by just "AI rebellions not inevitable". The fist part can cause a little confusion.

[Dreadcall]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

He never said he created them, he said he controls them.

Sure he did not state it, but he said they are his solution, which implies it.

[Calamity]

Tietj wrote...

What I would like explained is why the Catalyst cares at all. What stake does it have in preserving organic life in this galaxy?

This

[Pride Demon]

Lightfox wrote...

Forgive me if this has already been pointed out, but...

If the Reapers were created by Starchild, according to his logic, they will eventually rebel against him. Still according to him, at this point, Reapers will become “the chaos”. They will eventually wipe out organic life.
So, in order to prevent chaos, the first thing Starchild should do is to ask Reapers to destroy themselves, since they are actually the greatest threat of the galaxy.
But without Reapers, Starchild can’t prevent organics to create synthetics anymore. He needs Reapers, so he can’t ask them to destroy themselves.
To sum this up, Starchild needs the Reapers to be alive and dead at the same time.

Now, if the Reapers were not created by Starchild, they probably already rebelled against their creators. Since he’s able to control them, he should be able to control any new synthetic race who will rebel against their creators.
This would negate the need to destroy advanced organic civilizations.

Did i missed something ?

So, in essence, the catalyst acts like he does because he's the ME equivalent of HAL9000?

[CroGamer002]

Wow, I completely missed that.

[Steel Dancer]

Starbrat said...

Just as WE left your people alive the last time WE were here."

I realise it's just one lie amongst many, but this is one too.

The Charon Relay was covered in about a bajillion tonnes of ice and other crap. Somehow I doubt it was the Reapers that did that, more likely the Protheans on mars trying to protect themselves and/or humans.

...wait, did I just speculate? Dammit!

[Tietj]

I'm pretty sure the Charon Relay was covered in ice due to disuse. Although by that logic you would think that most relays would be iced over relatively shortly after a reaping.

[minormiracle]

Lightfox wrote...

Now, if the Reapers were not created by Starchild, they probably already rebelled against their creators. Since he’s able to control them, he should be able to control any new synthetic race who will rebel against their creators.
This would negate the need to destroy advanced organic civilizations.

Did i missed something ?

That's a far more elegant way of countering the "but he's not the creator" argument than I could have thought up.

[Flextt]

This is art. Go in your nerd-bunker and burn your facts.

On topic: nice catch. I like the chart, but you make the assumption that life would not be able to regenerate once fully extinguished. This has been proven wrong by one of our members: http://en.wikipedia....Urey_experiment

Bottom line: Once AIs / synthetics would cease their war or would have been stopped initially by proto-reapers, given suitable conditions, life would immediately start forming again. Of course it would take millions of years again, but if the Reapers have anything, it is time. (That is, considering they scrapped the Dark Energy ending entirely)

[minormiracle]

Ryleck wrote...

Pretty much what a was thinking. Your chart explains it very well. But I'd change "Civilization destroying AI rebellions not inevitable" by just "AI rebellions not inevitable". The fist part can cause a little confusion.

I moved the wording around a bit. Thanks

[Flextt]

Gimme a good argument against mine

On topic: nice catch. I like the chart, but you make the assumption that life would not be able to regenerate once fully extinguished. This has been proven wrong by one of our members: http://en.wikipedia....Urey_experiment

Bottom line: Once AIs / synthetics would cease their war or would have been stopped initially by proto-reapers, given suitable conditions, life would immediately start forming again. Of course it would take millions of years again, but if the Reapers have anything, it is time. (That is, considering they scrapped the Dark Energy ending entirely)

and I will be happy to kiss your feet for eternity. That's how compelling I find your train of thought. I am specifically referring to the point of AI's never having fully extinguished organic life because we still exist.

edited: I realize this is essentially a double-post, which in itself is a desperate attempt to get attention from you, OP. But it is the only counterargument I can think off, and with it out of the way, there would be the first, very hard to debunk explanation of why Starkid sucks. You cannot even debunk your conclusion through conjecture, as opposed to most other criticism.

Modifié par Flextt, 29 mars 2012 - 10:38 .

[MaverickPerry]

Approved.

[WindOverTuchanka]

 Well, first things first: great argument, Minor Miracle. Also, great counterargument, all in the same post. And great addendums. So, just for the sake of speculation, and may Mac and Casey rejoice, or something...

 If the Starchild created a solution to a problem, and that solution was the Reapers, how come the Reapers haven't rebelled against the Starchild yet? 

 Well, just another counterpoint: sentient creations always rebel against the creators.
What if the Reapers are not actually sentient?

They are certainly referred to as sentient, but are never shown to be: they refuse to engage in dialog, their reasoning abilities are less than those of the Prothean VI's, they do not adapt to their surroundings much and are rehashing tired tactics in their campaigns. In fact, Turians were shown to be better tacticians then the Reapers and are only unable to win due to Reapers more advanced design and superior numbers. Even indoctrination, as evidenced by Lawson's research, is not actually taking control of the victim's mind, but rather, transmitting the same message through nanites: help the Reapers. The details of helping the Reapers are entirely reliant on victim's own creativity.

So, what if the reapers lose it during processing, and sentience is a title that does not apply to them anymore? You know, the case of "the whole is lesser than the parts".Because if I was a sentient organosynthetic hybrid uplifted by someone in the cruellest way, I would certainly rebel.
 
----
Now, on topic if the Starchild is a liar or not, I'm with Ziggeh. The Starchild may well be a liar, or he is just not very good at communicating the original idea behind the project

 If Reapers are a race of unchecked synthetics then they never destroyed all organic life and the Starchild is wrong....If the Reapers did lead to the death of all organic life, how come there's still organic life around? 

 Organic life is organic for a reason: it can evolve again from primordial soup. Worse, it can do that over and over. And over, as long as there's carbon, water and a fluke in probability (The first phase of The Pattern™). So victorious synthetics, or hybrids, or 'ghosts of extinct organics' decide that it's more efficient (and somewhat amusing) to let organics evolve to a certain degree, and deal with them later. The 'preserving organics from synthetics' rhetoric? Well, they might like us, again to a degree, like growing attached to the tiger kitten when it's still cute and fluffy, and not at all threatening.

 If the destruction of all organic life without Reaper intervention is merely a possibility, why does the Starchild say "always?" 

It may be a very, very high probability, so high, in fact, that it could be considered certainty. Say, over 95% of all synthetic instances turned on organics and emerging victorious would be good enough to prompt the Starchild for action. The Prothean VI indirectly hints at it on Thessia, it's The Pattern™. Would it matter if the Starchild said 'in 9500 cases out of 10000' instead of 'always'? Nah, I'll still hate it's guts.

 Reapers were also blown out of the sky in previous cycles, and now it's happening again. Justifiable arrogance due to technological superiority I can understand, but repeatedly taking fatal risks for the sake of an arbitrary schedule is mind numbingly stupid.

 There are lots of Reapers. They may not mind losing one or two. 

And it's not an arbitrary schedule, it's an implied Universal Law - organics are diverse, but not diverse enough to develop faster or slower than the writer-induced 50 000 years.  

When you can't make out the intention of a character even when he flat out tells you what they are, that's usually a pretty good sign of bad writing.

I think we can all agree on that. These were just counterpoints, I'd actually love to have Starchild to be an inept liar he comes across as.

Modifié par WindOverTuchanka, 29 mars 2012 - 10:46 .

[Fat Headed Wolf]

Well thought out post, OP. But, to be fair, the Starchild kinda contradicted himself when he first appeared. Was I the only who saw him and kinda, at the back of his mind, said "Ah, dammit.... Here we go...."?