205 réponses à ce sujet

[RSOG]

count_4 wrote...

Yeah, it's ridiculous. A single Thanix missle brought down a Reaper destroyer. Mass-produce the hell out of them and we're good to go.

The Reapers use low-mass fields in order to be able to land on planets, but those fields leave them much more vulnerable than they are in space, according to the codex.

One has to wonder why the Quarians had so much trouble bringing down the destroyer on Rannoch.

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

Also, as far as this fearful myth of reaper invincibility goes, in the battle for palavan, the turian fleet went head to head with the reapers and gave them one hell of a fight. Codex states that using short FTL jumps and the superior maneuverability of their ships, the Turians took out several capital ships. As in the big, Sovereign size ones. It was only when reaper destroyers FTLed up to palavan and began orbital bombardment that the turians were forced to break off from their battle plan, and rush back try to defend palavan. They lost the initiative, and were forced into a desperate, uncoordinated defensive battle at that point, and that's when things went south for them. Still, palavan didnt fall completely, not like earth, karshan or thessia.

That doesnt sound like they cant be beaten conventionally to me.

[Thalorin1919]

Catroi wrote...

We never needed the freaking Catalyst, just mass produce better Thanix Canons instead of concentrate all your ressources on a freaking machine that you don't even know what it makes

Can't just mass produce advanced weaponry like that in the middle of a devastating galactic war. 


The war wouldn't of had been won conventionally. Tactics that work at the beginning won't continue throughout the war, as the Reapers will adapt. They've been doing this for 37 million plus years. 

Just stop trying to think that this could of had been done conventionally, because it couldn't of had. By the time the fleets mass to take the Crucible to the Citadel at Earth, the Reapers have pretty much invaded and/or taken most of not all charted systems on the galaxy map. 

Modifié par Thalorin1919, 28 mars 2012 - 10:50 .

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

RSOG wrote...

count_4 wrote...

Yeah, it's ridiculous. A single Thanix missle brought down a Reaper destroyer. Mass-produce the hell out of them and we're good to go.

The Reapers use low-mass fields in order to be able to land on planets, but those fields leave them much more vulnerable than they are in space, according to the codex.

One has to wonder why the Quarians had so much trouble bringing down the destroyer on Rannoch.

A capital ships mass accelerator hits with the force of the hiroshima bomb.  That can be pretty devastating to a planet, so Im guessing the quarians were greatly reducing the power they were firing at, or only using small guns.  Otherwise, they would vaporize shepard, and risk doing some serious environmental damage to their newly reclaimed homeworld.  I know thats what i would do.  A nuclear winter on rannoch defeats the whole purpose of reclaiming it

*i know the weapons arent nuclear, but the amount of debris kicked up into the atmosphere by repeated blasts like that will have the same effect

[Anareth]

Btw what ever happened to the 8th fleet

[Zix13]

Should have built a bunch of Cains...

[NoUserNameHere]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Catroi wrote...

We never needed the freaking Catalyst, just mass produce better Thanix Canons instead of concentrate all your ressources on a freaking machine that you don't even know what it makes

Can't just mass produce advanced weaponry like that in the middle of a devastating galactic war. 


The war wouldn't of had been won conventionally. Tactics that work at the beginning won't continue throughout the war, as the Reapers will adapt. They've been doing this for 37 million plus years. 

Just stop trying to think that this could of had been done conventionally, because it couldn't of had. By the time the fleets mass to take the Crucible to the Citadel at Earth, the Reapers have pretty much invaded and/or taken most of not all charted systems on the galaxy map. 

That's just for dramatic effect, and to justify shoehorning you into Earth.

Remember how they were being repelled on Palavalen? And how they sent  a grand total of 1 destroyer to two major theatres of war (Tuchanka and Rannoch)? Even Thessia isn't getting curbstomped by near as many Reapers when it 'falls.'

Earth ('specially once the Citadel arrives) has gotta be home a fair portion of the Reaper fleet. The little blue planet seems pretty important to them. I, for one, would much rather fight (and die) conventionally than use the combined might of the galaxy as sacrificial lambs just to get Shep to the Starchild's soul-crushing scene.

[Fdmatt]

Despite Hackett's insistence that we couldn't I can't help but disagree. There seems to be a tonal shift in ME3 wherein somehow the Reapers are stronger than we'd anticipated despite the fact that the galaxy has been adapting and using Reaper tech for years now. I a mean come on, with the introduction of the Thanix Cannon in ME2 you'd think the Turian and Alliance fleets would at least be on par weaponry wise, yet we don't get to see a Thanix fired once.

Fleet wise I guess it's really anyone's call but I've got to think the Alliance, Turian, Geth, Quarian, Asari, Salarian, Terminus, and the other species couldn't have overwhelmed the Reapers barriers. I mean come on now, we're talking tens of thousands of ships, many of which, according to the codex should have Thanix Cannons.

On the ground I don't think there's really any question as to who would have supremacy. We're talking the full brunt of the Alliance and Turian marines, Krogan Battlemasters riding dinosaurs, Geth Primes working side by side with Quarian marines who have Geth AI in their suits, Asari Commandos, Salarian STG operatives, Drell assassins, Elcor with rocket launchers and mini-guns strapped to their backs, wave upon wave of Vorcha and Ymir mechs courtesy of Aria. And that's not even counting the fact that there's no way the Rachni would have been shoehorned into purely a construction role.

"In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts. "

"The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed."

Now the Council races (plus the 1 Volus) have 85 dreadnaughts, with the Geth quoted as having almost as many as the Turians (39, we'll say 30 for convenience) and since we don't get any hard facts regarding how crazy the Quarians went as far as arming their ships we'll just say they have 5 dreadnaught capable fighting ships. That brings us to 120 dreadnaughts total. Let's be generous and assume that half of those were wiped out before the initiative to retake Earth. That's still 60 dreadnaughts.

The mistake people make is to assume that dreadnaughts would be the decisive factor, but they wouldn't. Considering humanity's loophole around the Treaty involved making carriers which could go toe to toe with dreadnaughts we have to consider those would play a huge role.

The Reaper fleet has only ever been quoted in the thousands, and according to the Codex only a small percentage of that are actual capitol ships. The combined allied fleets have hundreds of thousands of ships. Using tactics like the Turians did at Palaven with tens of thousands of ships would have no doubt yielded better results.

"Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, and their concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships. "

Reapers simply would be able to target allied ships fast enough without being overwhelmed.

Plus you can't really count Sovereign as an indicative Reaper engagement, considering the galaxy had never faced anything like it and the Destiny Ascension probably never sweated another ship since it was built. It's akin to World War I, so destructive because the tacticians were using old world maneuvers with new world factors in play,

/nerdvent

[The Angry One]

As far as the Quarians go, all 3 of their liveships are fitted with heavy mass accelerators making each the equivalent of a super large dreadnaught. Then there's the heavy fleet on top of that.

[Cody211282]

RSOG wrote...

count_4 wrote...

Yeah, it's ridiculous. A single Thanix missle brought down a Reaper destroyer. Mass-produce the hell out of them and we're good to go.

The Reapers use low-mass fields in order to be able to land on planets, but those fields leave them much more vulnerable than they are in space, according to the codex.

One has to wonder why the Quarians had so much trouble bringing down the destroyer on Rannoch.

Continuity is not this games strong point.

[Lookout1390]

Mass produce Cains

Apparently that is there achilles's heel

[Fdmatt]

There's just no way it couldn't have been done.

Oh and to the point that Thanix cannons couldn't have been produced en masse during the middle of a war, tell that to the engineers who built the Crucible.

[AllergevKev]

You guys are just simply not getting the point. Those statements are just there for the writers to assure you that they CAN'T be defeated conventionally. Because they can't. Because that would be stupid, given the series' lore.

[Fdmatt]

Ok bro, so back that up with evidence saying they can't. Instead of just saying they can't.

[BigM3atL3gacy]

Everyone keeps talking about the size of the organics' fleets (and Geth), but not about the size of the Reaper fleet. There could be thousands of ships for all you guys now, since, you know, they have been harvesting for god knows how long.

[Fingertrip]

The Heretics were just cannon fodder.

Duh?

[Fawx9]

AllergevKev wrote...

You guys are just simply not getting the point. Those statements are just there for the writers to assure you that they CAN'T be defeated conventionally. Because they can't. Because that would be stupid, given the series' lore.

No it wouldn't

All other cycles were conquored because the Repears could use divide and conquor tactics to surprise and overwhelm the homeworlds.

The Protheans stopped that on their cycle, and we screwed that up even more in ME1.

Now why didn't the Protheans win if they stopped the repears main tactic? They never united the galaxy. They conquored parts of it, but there wasn't a unified resistance to the Reapers. We have that this time.

The Reapers couldn't control the relays and this time they would have had to deal with the entire galaxy, not just one race at a time. If the Protheans could hold out for as long as they did, a species alone, think what could be acheived with all of us working together. I'd say convetional tactics stood a pretty good chance if you got enough of the galaxy(war assests) together.

Modifié par Fawx9, 29 mars 2012 - 12:21 .

[Lookout1390]

BigM3atL3gacy wrote...

Everyone keeps talking about the size of the organics' fleets (and Geth), but not about the size of the Reaper fleet. There could be thousands of ships for all you guys now, since, you know, they have been harvesting for god knows how long.

That's the thing, it's all speculation because Bioware made the ending so retardedly open-ended, and so many questions to be un-answered

[Pheonix57]

Am I the only one who wants a revised ending where Shepard goes, "**** you, Starchild, I didn't need that stupid Crucible anyway!"

I mean come on, no matter how numerous the Reapers are, our fleets could handle them! Especially if you got the geth on your side. I mean really, has anyone taken a moment to consider all the forces at Shepard's disposal?
The Alliance, Geth, Quarian, Asari, Turian, Krogan, Salarian, Drell/Hanar, Batarian, and all of Aria's combined forces. Not to mention, when the Illusive Man dies, Shepard could take control of his fleets too!

I say we forget the stupid god child and get **** done.

Modifié par Pheonix57, 29 mars 2012 - 12:23 .

[Vromrig]

Point moot. Whether can be eventually overtaken irrelevant. After engagement with Reapers, demonstrated that individually probably can gain ground.

Not enough resources to maintain, however.

Just because capable of eventually taking down ship does not mean cost effective to do so.

[Pheonix57]

If only we could lure all the reapers to Tuchanka and let Kalros handle it ;P

[Fdmatt]

Reapers were quoted in the thousands IIRC, but irregardless, the Sovereign class ships only make up a small portion of that and Turians were able to down several of those at Palaven on their own just with superior tactics.

[Vromrig]

Fdmatt wrote...

Reapers were quoted in the thousands IIRC, but irregardless, the Sovereign class ships only make up a small portion of that and Turians were able to down several of those at Palaven on their own just with superior tactics.

Not efficiently.  Protracted engagement not likely feasible.

[Pedro Costa]

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

That statement (and all of the ones like it) always irked me. It's like everyone pretends the geth fleet never existed.

It was like a massive, completely shocking blitzkreig that was spearheaded by a large tank to absorb the initial shots/distract.

From there on, it was the geth fleet, and the geth fleet ALONE, that fought the Citadel Fleet.

The Alliance Fleet then finished off the geth fleet (wait a second, wasn't the Citadel Fleet supposed to be massive and powerful? And wasn't that geth fleet only made up of frigates and some cruisers (maybe)? And weren't the Heretic geth only 5% of the geth population/forces? 

Whatever, moving on. So this already weakened Alliance fleet (with no dreadnaughts or carriers present either, and not that many cruisers either, now that I think about it) takes on Sovereign...and wins. Without losing more than a third of its forces (and it's implied that some of those losses were just from the geth).

So, um....where the heck is Hackett getting this idea from? And everyone else?

And this is why the Crucible should just have disabled the Reaper's shields, enabling then the use of conventional warfare and bring some meaning to having spent 40 freaking hours gathering a galaxy-wide armada.

[Tovanus]

Isn't everyone forgetting that Sovereign pretty easily swatted aside the shots of the fleet when it was focusing its firepower on him? The game is pretty explicit that the ONLY reason they were able to take down Sovereign in the end was because you killed Saren when Sovereign was in direct control of him, which shocked Sovereign's systems and left it extremely vulnerable. (Like the feedback making the barriers drop or something along those lines).

The idea that you could conventionally beat the Reaper Capital Ships without taking unsustainable losses over the course of the war  (it's clear that the Turians are only delaying things when they're invaded, even when they get a few kills) because the ships at the Battle of the Citadel were able to take down Sovereign (even with all the Geth around) kind of ignores that you need the Reaper to be in that very rare situation.

Modifié par Tovanus, 29 mars 2012 - 12:34 .