205 réponses à ce sujet

[Zardoc]

Tovanus wrote...

I said it earlier, but it seems like people are still ignoring the fact that Sovereign only fell to the fleet when Saren died. They pretty explicitly connect the two events. Sovereign took full control of Saren's corpse, the corpse was completely destroyed, Sovereign experienced some kind of feedback shock from this, his shields dropped, the fleet was able to finally kill him.

It doesn't really help the notion that the Reapers could have been conventionally defeated.

Thanix cannons. The Citadel/Alliance fleet didn't have any in the battle against Sovereign.

[BigM3atL3gacy]

Zardoc wrote...

BigM3atL3gacy wrote...

Fdmatt wrote...

Previous lore as in what?

The Protheans gave them centuries of war and they lost the Citadel from the get-go per the cycle.

Shepard stopped the Citadel invasion, bought the galaxy 4 years to reverse engineer their technology, and blew up the Alpha Relay to stop them from spreading so quickly. He also gathered the largest and most diversely skilled military force ever assembled.

The Protheans were more widespread and technologically advanced than any species in the current cycle, and knew about the Reapers prior to their invasion as well. But, nothing is known about how powerful the Prothean military was, or of its capabilities, so they would be an unfair comparison.
 

Where the hell did you hear that? Nothing I've seen throughout the games indicates that the protheans knew about the invasion.

They knew about the Reapers, through studying previous species. Not that they knew that an invasion was coming or anything.

[The Angry One]

The Reapers got to Palaven, Arcturus station, Earth and Thessia by "cheating" and using FTL to bypass fleets entirely, forcing organics to fight on their terms.
The individual fleets weren't ready for this and, except for the Turians, got pounded into the dirt.

But once the fleets are consolidated into one spot against one force of Reapers there's no reason they shouldn't prevail with high enough strength.

[BigM3atL3gacy]

Elyiia wrote...

The entire "We can't win conventionally" is purely to make the Crucible have a place.

We're told that an Alliance cruiser can destroy a Destroyer in a 1v1 situation. We have more cruisers than the Reapers have destroyers. In terms of Dreadnoughts vs Capital ships, the best estimate we have for Capital ships is about 70. We know a full strength galactic force has around 80. While we're told a Capital ship is stronger than an Alliance Dreadnought we don't know how well they fare against a Geth Dreadnought, of which there are around 30.

Of course had they used their brains instead of building the Crucible and created anti-matter based weaponry the entire Reaper force at Earth would have been destroyed in the first 10 seconds.

Lets all just pull new weapons systems from thin air. It is described that it takes a couple of dreadnoughts to take on a Sovereign class ship, which means that anything smaller than a dreadnought is simply cannon fodder. Even with Thanix cannons (which were widespread but not deployed on all ships), you still have to fight a large portion of the Reaper fleet at Earth, and THEN destroy the rest of the Reapers (who are deployed in unknown numbers) across the rest of the galaxy. A conventional victory would have simply been unlikely (not impossible, just unlikely).

[Fdmatt]

The point everyone is ignoring is that up until you get to Mars the gameplan is to do this the conventional way.

Irregardless, you can't call tens of thousands of carriers, cruisers, and frigates combining their fire cannon fodder. Zerg rush yes, but not cannon fodder.

[TheDarkDefender]

The thing with the crucible is it seems like an excellent trap that the Reapers would make, have a civilization put all it's resources into creating this thing that just does sod all or worse that the Reapers want built and can't be bothered to do it themselves. Hackett says that the instuctions are very simple to follow which adds creedance to this, the Reapers don't want to befuddle the stupid organics. Plus for a civilization to actually come up with the idea of building this thing in the first place they would have to know about the ghost child catalyst thing, who says that Shepherd is the first organic to discover it.

[Elyiia]

BigM3atL3gacy wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The entire "We can't win conventionally" is purely to make the Crucible have a place.

We're told that an Alliance cruiser can destroy a Destroyer in a 1v1 situation. We have more cruisers than the Reapers have destroyers. In terms of Dreadnoughts vs Capital ships, the best estimate we have for Capital ships is about 70. We know a full strength galactic force has around 80. While we're told a Capital ship is stronger than an Alliance Dreadnought we don't know how well they fare against a Geth Dreadnought, of which there are around 30.

Of course had they used their brains instead of building the Crucible and created anti-matter based weaponry the entire Reaper force at Earth would have been destroyed in the first 10 seconds.

Lets all just pull new weapons systems from thin air. It is described that it takes a couple of dreadnoughts to take on a Sovereign class ship, which means that anything smaller than a dreadnought is simply cannon fodder. Even with Thanix cannons (which were widespread but not deployed on all ships), you still have to fight a large portion of the Reaper fleet at Earth, and THEN destroy the rest of the Reapers (who are deployed in unknown numbers) across the rest of the galaxy. A conventional victory would have simply been unlikely (not impossible, just unlikely).

It's not pulling new weapons from thin air (lol Crucible), there are small references in the previous games about anti-matter based warheads. It's just not mentioned because of how rediculously one sided the final battle would have been.

[Fdmatt]

I just love how at the beginning of the game Liara says its crucial that they know how the Crucible works before they use it, otherwise they'd be like children playing with a loaded gun.

Yet they go into the final battle with no clue.

[Diablos2525]

Catroi wrote...

We never needed the freaking Catalyst, just mass produce better Thanix Canons instead of concentrate all your ressources on a freaking machine that you don't even know what it makes

The catalyst should of disabled the reaper's shields and then your war assets IE YOUR DECISIONS from all three games should of determined the ending you recieved.

[Clumsy Astronaut]

Ok.. The only reason Soveriegn lost was because you killed Saren, disrupting his shields... The Quarian fleet, the largest, if not the most powerfull took multiple salvoes to take down a puny reaper destroyer. X1000 for the whole reaper fleet.

[Fdmatt]

Cool story about Sovereign bro, tell it again. Except for the fact that we've already explained how that initial conflict has almost zero bearing on how the final battle would have played out.

[Clumsy Astronaut]

We know nothing about reapers effective shield strength, as the only ones you really kill without a nice Saren to disable are sheildless destroyers, and even with only armour ( which would be stronger on capitol ships) it takes what, four salvoes from the galaxy's largest fleet?

Modifié par Clumsy Astronaut, 29 mars 2012 - 02:20 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Megachaz wrote...

Yep. He keeps saying "We can't beat the Reapers conventionally." I don't really understand why that we be the case. Just stop acting like a nitwit and it wouldn't be that hard.

There are likely millions of Reapers, most of them capital class who are just as big and powerful as Sovereign. Geth fleet aside, it DID take multiple fleets to take down Sovereign, but only after Shepard disabled its shields.

- Capital Reapers have mass effect fields that can withstand dreadnought fire. Thanix Cannons pack a punch, but not enough. Hence why the Normandy's thanix cannon couldn't be used to punch a whole in the Derelict Reaper.

- Reapers literally have unlimited power supplies and are practically immortal. They never get tired and they never run out of ammo. The combined fleet might make a nice dent -- but attrition is hell.

- The Protheans had an empire that spanned the known galaxy, they had all intelligent life united under their rule, they had weapons technology and biotic powers that puts the current standards to shame. And the Reapers still brought them down. It took centuries, but they went down.

- Conventionally is quite literal. Listen to the two guards at the War Room scanner. They mention that Reapers don't have supply lines to cut off, they don't have bases or colonies, and using WMDs just hurts you and not them.

Look at the battles during ME3. All the reapers that get killed are Destroyer class. Tuchanka, Rannoch, Earth. Destroyers are mainly ground units and are half the size and power of a capital. Even during the Sword Fleet battle with high EMS, you only see ONE capital class get damaged, not destroyed.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 29 mars 2012 - 02:25 .

[Clumsy Astronaut]

Yay for Grey he is sane.

[Fdmatt]

Yeah we know nothing about their shield strength... except an explicit Codex entry stating that they can hold off 2 dreadnaughts, strain under 3, and crumble to 4. Might want to gather up an ounce of info before you make a point.

Grey, you've got it completely backwards. There are in no way millions of Reapers. It's speculated in game they number in the thousands and only a small percentage of them are Sovereign class considering only 1 is made every cycle. Furthermore you have their capabilities mostly wrong, I'll refer you to this Codex entry:

"Reaper Vulnerabilities

Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers.

In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.

The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.

The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.

Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.

Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation. "

[askanec]

Defeat of the Reapers is pointless. You can wipe out every single Reaper and it still means nothing. The Prothean VI on Thessia mentions that the Reapers is just one tool in the cycle of destruction. The Catalyst controlling the Reapers can simply send something else the next time.

[Clumsy Astronaut]

The fact that it only mentions dreadnoughts in the codex entry seems to imply that everything else has insufficient punch i.e like throwing rocks. If you look at the end of ME2 the massive amount of reapers you see seems to completely dwarf the amount of dreadnoughts that you could ever hope to gather

( forgot about that reaper entry in the codex )

[alberta]

Fdmatt wrote...

Yeah we know nothing about their shield strength... except an explicit Codex entry stating that they can hold off 2 dreadnaughts, strain under 3, and crumble to 4. Might want to gather up an ounce of info before you make a point.

Grey, you've got it completely backwards. There are in no way millions of Reapers. It's speculated in game they number in the thousands and only a small percentage of them are Sovereign class considering only 1 is made every cycle. Furthermore you have their capabilities mostly wrong, I'll refer you to this Codex entry:

"Reaper Vulnerabilities

Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers.

In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.

The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.

The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.

Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.

Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation. "

NIce post - that leaves the doubter about conventional warfore something to think about.

[Fdmatt]

Yeah except that's not how kinetic barriers work. Pretty sure the combined fire of hundreds of cruisers, carriers, and frigates would work just as well as a couple of dreadnaughts.

Oh yeah did I mention we have tens of thousands of those?

[katamuro]

Fdmatt wrote...

Yeah except that's not how kinetic barriers work. Pretty sure the combined fire of hundreds of cruisers, carriers, and frigates would work just as well as a couple of dreadnaughts.

Oh yeah did I mention we have tens of thousands of those?

so true, if single hit cant do it, multiple hits will overload shields. on anything. also reapers are vulnerable when going down on to the planet since their mass effect cores are used for both descent control (landing) and shields. Since they have no thrusters of any kind the energy used for holding the reaper from crashing is taken from shields. so an ideal moment to strike. 

[Clumsy Astronaut]

If you would count every reaper  in the Mass Effect 2 ending (and they are ALL capitol ships in that cinematic) and multiply that by 4, you need that many dreadnoughts, but considering you are right about kinetic barriers, let's lower that to twice the amount of reapers, that still ends up being a pretty astronomical number, and that doesn't include destroyers which we could assume that there is at least 5 for each capitol, maybe more.

Modifié par Clumsy Astronaut, 29 mars 2012 - 02:44 .

[Fdmatt]

Ok and a single cruiser can take a destroyer. Or a squadron of fighters. Of which the Alliance and Geth have many.

We have numbers on our side, thus firepower as well. Reapers have pinpoint accuracy and absolutely destructive force but cannot maneuver in combat and as they'd be trying to target the 50 odd ships firing at them from the front dozens more would be firing at them from every other angle. The war wouldn't be won with dreadnaughts.

[Clumsy Astronaut]

Not at range, the reapers would have a huge edge as th allied fleets would have to come in at Pluto, leaving themselves vulnerable to at least a dozen salvoes from the reapers. The reapers are also portrayed as having a similarly large mass of fighters in the final battle, and considering the edge of reaper tech then the alliance would probably be swarmed with those oculus things in short order.

[2484Stryker]

Maybe I remembered it wrong, but wasn't Sovereign only destroyed because Shepard killed his Saren avatar on the Citadel Tower, thereby causing a massive power surge that knocked out Sovereign's shields & weapons?

In other words, I thought that Sovereign either wouldn't have been destroyed or at least would have taken a quite a few more Alliance ships with him if Shepard hadn't caused him to pull a Reaper muscle spasm.

[Fdmatt]

Clumsy - Range was nullified because the Reapers weren't expecting it. Per the cutscene the fleet makes it past Luna before attracting the Reaper's attention and closes into a slogging match incurring only minimal losses. Yes good point, the Reapers do have Oculus drones but again, per the cutscene a standard Alliance fighter can take one in a dog fight.

Stryker - Again Sovereign can only be used sparingly considering the amount of time that has passed since the attack on the Citadel. The time Shepard bought and the tech that has been reverse engineered in the meantime has put us on more equal ground with the Reapers than ever.