205 réponses à ce sujet

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

Clumsy Astronaut wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I call shenanigans. Thanix (sp?) cannons carved the Collector ship (Probably close in approximation to Reaper tech) in two shots. 2. Now, I remember there being a Volus ship just brimming with these things! So, stick at least one on EVERY ship and bam! Insta-Reaper pain. Now, I will buy that a one on one engagement is a bad idea. However, this is where we non-Reaper/crazy people faction get clever. Hit'em in small groups, divide and conquer when you can. With Hackett and Victus in command, I figured this would've made some sense. Especially if the Crucible/Catalyst would've acted like a neutralizer to knock the squids down a level or two in survivability. But nope, three flavors of one ending for us.

The collector ship had no shields and poor armour, even with relatively modest predictions about reaper strength it would be like comparing a Cruiser to an Athabasca freighter. The Collector ship obviously wasn't designed for full on engagements.

While you raise a good point about the cost and time of producing Thannix cannons, it does say that a Thannix equiped frigate is equivalent to a cruiser in firepower, and we know one of those can take down a reaper destroyer if it can survive to close in.  Unfortunatly, we can only speculate how much harder dreadnought level thannix cannons hit over the standard dreadnought main guns.  While it may not be a magic reaper killing technology, I'm guessing it goes a long way toward closing the firepower gap. 

As fun as this theorycrafting is, without any numbers on the size of the reaper fleet, it gets a little difficult.  Its hard to extrapolate just how many there are based on the number of cycles, as we dont know how many races were ascended in each cycle, or how many casualties the reapers took in each harvest.  Another unanswered question is if they always only make 1 capital ship from a race, or if they can make more.  Also, is it a matter of compatibility, or simply a percieved value of worthiness that determines whether a race becomes a destroyer or dreadnought?  If its 1 per race, and only certain races, then the reapers will have taken some serious attrition over the millinia, as the turians took out several by themselves.  While not every race is going to fight back as effectively, I'm sure a few have.  At 1 or 2 every 50,000 years, thats a pretty big setback.

[Chuvvy]

His point, while technically invalid, is still pretty accurate Sovereign was anally penetrating the humans, asari, and turians. Reapers got significantly less powerful as ME went on.

I think the story of ME failed the second it became about beating the reapers, not stopping them from getting to the galaxy, but that's a whole other discussion.

Modifié par Slidell505, 29 mars 2012 - 10:27 .

[Militarized]

I don't see why a Thannix Cannon mass production wouldn't be as viable as building some giant collosal energy weapon where you don't even know what it does.

Mass Production has examples in todays world for winning wars, imagine all the resources available on a galactic scale. If they were able to hide the Crucible I'm sure they can hide shipyards and weapon factories to produce Dreads/Thannix Cannons by the truckload to throw at the Reapers.. and imagine all races united building all that. >.<

[Leozilla]

Megachaz wrote...

Yep. He keeps saying "We can't beat the Reapers conventionally." I don't really understand why that we be the case. Just stop acting like a nitwit and it wouldn't be that hard.

any half decent admiral could bet the Reapers with hit and run tactis,let alone every ship in the galaxy. Just take back one planet at a time, and not go after the one with the most reapers on it at one time

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

One thing i've been wondering about is the old concept of a Battlecruiser. Dreadnought scale weaponry on a smaller, more lightly armored and maneuverable ship. It was proven a faulty idea in WW2 by the HMS Hood and the like, as the added maneuverability wasnt enough to compensate for the weaker armor going against full scale battleships (granted, air power made battleships and cruisers an increasingly obsolete dinosaur, but thats another point)

However, in the space combat of ME it might work. Especially since Dreadnoughts cant stand up to sustained reaper fire anyway, and the Turian's capital ship kills came from their dreadnoughts outmaneuvering the big reapers while focus firing.

[Clumsy Astronaut]

@ Butcher The reapers managed to take the citadel first in every cycle except this one, effectively killing all the major political leaders, shutting off relays and communication instantly from the citadel. After this they would have scattered an divided systems. I would be surprised if they took a single casualty if they grab the citadel successfully, as by the time everyone realises what is happening it would be too late. Also in the codex it specifically states that destroyers are made from any race not put in a capital ship, so we could logically assume 10X the number of capitol ships it the number of destroyers.

@ Militarized It is stated that the crucible'd design was specifically made easy to construct, while reaper leve tech would be significantly harder to reproduce effectively. The difference is the crucible was designed to be easy while the reapers have every reason not to make it reproducible on a large scale without their level of tech.

[Koryel]

Regarding the Reaper’s shields, multiple codex entries confirm they are just kinetic barriers, albeit very strong ones, but not impossible to bypass:
Reaper Capabilities
“The kinetic barriers on a Reaper capital ship can shrug off the firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters.“
 Reaper Vulnerabilities"In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.
The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.”
Now, I’d like to bring to your attention the description of almost all the SMGs in the game:“The commonality of kinetic barriers has led to increased demand for rapid-fire weapons like the Tempest”or
“As kinetic barriers have grown in popularity, so has the popularity of submachine guns.”


That means that within the Mass Effect universe, the best way to bring down kinetic barriers is not a huge damaging shot (that’s why sniper rifles or hand cannons are not as effective) but instead multiple lower damage shots (SMGs, the high number of pellets of a shotgun or fast firing assault rifles)
So, if this is the way to go for personal infantry level kinetic barriers, why wouldn’t it be true for ship size kinetic barriers, which would make swarms of fighters/frigates/cruisers actually more effective than a dreadnought? They overload the shields with small fire and then the big boys do the real hull damage. And the united fleets have plenty of smaller ships...the quarians armed all their civilian ships after all and their fleet is almost 50k ships (unless i'm mistaken). 

As for the possibilities of conventional warfare having a chance of success against the Reapers, I've already made several points in it's favor some time ago, in this thread:
http://social.biowar.../index/10062070 

Modifié par Koryel, 29 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[Jamie9]

I always assumed the Reapers suffered little to no casualties each cycle, as they had the complete element of surprise, wiped out most leaders instantly, and blocked all communications and Mass Relays. Besides that, the Reapers would die out if they didn't at least equal the amount of Reapers coming out of each Cycle than going in.

The problem I find with answering this question is the power, and numbers of the Reapers doesn't remain consistent. It is thus very difficult to estimate our chances.

[FoxShadowblade]

Thanix Cannons on Alliance, Turian, Quarian and probably every other race who has a small intelligence agency? And you can bet your ass the Geth made a cannon even better.

Can't beat them conventionally? Why?

Plot armor!

[Clumsy Astronaut]

@ Koryel A valid point about kinetic barriers, but what we have been discussing is whether the reaper range, weapon strength and accuracy negate such an advantage and whether the total number of reapers makes it impossible anyway.

[Clumsy Astronaut]

@ Fox we just discussed possible cost and manufacturing costs on this page. As this technology is from machines a million years ahead it would most likely be extremely costly and resource intensive. I don't even know if we have any confirmed Thanix ships besides the Normandy and from that we could infer they are very scarce.

[Vergil_dgk]

for the EMS ratings you guys have to remember that just because a race is willing to help you it doesn't mean they are sending all they have. The Turian fleet is the strongest in the galaxy but most of it is at Plaven, not Earth. The Geth are sending ships to help you but many are probably staying behind to defend their own territory etc. etc.

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

Militarized wrote...

I don't see why a Thannix Cannon mass production wouldn't be as viable as building some giant collosal energy weapon where you don't even know what it does.

Mass Production has examples in todays world for winning wars, imagine all the resources available on a galactic scale. If they were able to hide the Crucible I'm sure they can hide shipyards and weapon factories to produce Dreads/Thannix Cannons by the truckload to throw at the Reapers.. and imagine all races united building all that. >.<

While we'll never see it in a game, it would make a really interesting "what if?" tale of the galaxy pouring the crucible resources into shipyards, weapons factories,and weapons of mass destruction.   Destroy the citadel so the relay's cant be shut down, evacuate populations to hidden locations and get ready for the long fight.  Give the reapers something they've never really encountered before: a long bloody battle of attrition.   Only instead of an isolated, crippled, prothean empire with deactivated relays, they have to fight a dozen unified races all at once as they salvage more and more reaper and prothean tech to fight them.  They're accustomed to being everything in soveriegns speech.  They'd probably win, but  i'd like to see how their will to fight holds up when immortal beings that have lived for millions of years start dying regularly.  Uncertainty and mortality are alien concepts to them.

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

Clumsy Astronaut wrote...

@ Butcher The reapers managed to take the citadel first in every cycle except this one, effectively killing all the major political leaders, shutting off relays and communication instantly from the citadel. After this they would have scattered an divided systems. I would be surprised if they took a single casualty if they grab the citadel successfully, as by the time everyone realises what is happening it would be too late. Also in the codex it specifically states that destroyers are made from any race not put in a capital ship, so we could logically assume 10X the number of capitol ships it the number of destroyers.

I start posting again and this thread starts moving fast...

Good point Clumsy.  They probably take far less casualties when they shut down the network.  im sure they'd have to run across a massed fleet like the turians at one point or another when sweeping the galaxy.  Then again, they could always just approach that problem with indoctrinated minions, starve them out, or even wait for the crews to die of old age. They certainly have the time

[Clumsy Astronaut]

@ Butcher The reapers could easily place a few capital ships around each relay to lock down transit and use vast amounts of destroyers to crush any resistance they find with indoctrinated spies. Not to mention that as the controller of the relays the citadel might be necessary for their continued function (in the destroy and synthesis endings the citadel explodes and so do the relays while in control the citadel remains and the relays appear just deactivated)

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

I think that victory in the 2nd battle for earth is possible, albeit highly unlikely. A long guerilla war would be even less likely, and probably doomed to failure for the reasons you stated. Still, it would make for an interesting "what if?" book or comic.

But back to the earth battle, i guess it ultimately comes down to whether they number in the thousands like you estimate, or if their numbers have been stabilized by attrition over the cycles. No way of really knowing other than making our best guesses. Has anybody counted the # of visible reapers in screencaps of the final battle yet? At the end of ME2 when harbinger is flying toward the screen, theres roughly around 295 reapers visible according to the wiki.

[Clumsy Astronaut]

Tudorwolf had an exellent post back one page where he used the age of the derelict reaper and the length of our cycle to determine about 700 reapers minimum, and that means around 7000-8400 destroyers if all cycles have a similar level of sapient, havestable life. This is also if the derelict reaper is the oldest, he could be midle aged by reaper standards, effectively doubling these numbers.

*edit he said 740, so thats 7400-8880 destroyers with the main fleet*

Modifié par Clumsy Astronaut, 29 mars 2012 - 11:24 .

[Militarized]

Clumsy Astronaut wrote...

@ Militarized It is stated that the crucible'd design was specifically made easy to construct, while reaper leve tech would be significantly harder to reproduce effectively. The difference is the crucible was designed to be easy while the reapers have every reason not to make it reproducible on a large scale without their level of tech.

Small mistake I think, the Thannix cannons are not Reaper tech... they are BASED on Reaper tech but they are Alliance/Turian design. They are wholy reproduceable on a massive scale, as evidenced by the Codex saying most of the main Citadel races have upgraded their entire armada's to use the Thanix cannons(not shown in game, I know... it's dumb). 

So we can mass produce them, and I assume they could streamline our ship production much like America did in WW2 after Pearl Harbor except they'd have multiple species and galactic resources available to do it. The "crucible is easy to figure out" was just weaksauce narrative explaining it away, honestly, there's no reason we couldn't streamline Dreadnaught/Cruiser production. 

Screening them with a mass of cheaply made, drone controlled frigates would be a good idea as well but nnnnooooo let's not be innovative and unpredictable... let's make a dumb macguffin weapon. 

[Clumsy Astronaut]

but anyways I have to go, school and all, be on in approx 6 hours, or between classes maybe

[Clumsy Astronaut]

@ militarizes the fact that it was constructed with superior tech means that we probably do not have the means or amterials to produce it. If I left an M-16 in the 18th century they would probably be able to copy elements of it's design, but at a much lower level due to materials restrictions and lack of facilities made for it's production

last post I swear

[Shaoken]

Leozilla wrote...

Megachaz wrote...

Yep. He keeps saying "We can't beat the Reapers conventionally." I don't really understand why that we be the case. Just stop acting like a nitwit and it wouldn't be that hard.

any half decent admiral could bet the Reapers with hit and run tactis,let alone every ship in the galaxy. Just take back one planet at a time, and not go after the one with the most reapers on it at one time

Except the biggest problem with the Reaper's is they attack with overwhelming numbers. Look at the game whenever you attract their presence in system; you're looking at four Reaper's chasing you down. ANd that's four for just the Normandy. The Turian primarch even says that the Reaper's strike with shear overwhelming numbers,and the codex states that hit and run tactices don't work against Reaper's flying in formation (since they cover all the angles and will always strike first since they have the greater range).

It takes four dreadnought's concentrating fire on a single Reaper to get past it's barriers and destroy it, and in every encounter you are not going up against one Reaper.

And Javik even said himself that the Prothean's took things down from a system-scale to a planet and city-one; it just doesn't matter; the Reaper's have overwhelming numbers and time on their sides. Anywhere they attack, they attack with overwhelming numbers because they can afford to wait for centuries to finish the job, and the organic fleets will always lose ships in every engagement.

[Aetius5]

If we pick everything in the series apart with a fine tooth comb, we will find inconsistencies. I thought the war asset system was cool, but the distribution of force totally unbalanced. In the end its irrelevent, so what's the difference?

[Rabid Rooster]

OP, I have made this same argument in another thread. I agree.

[Militarized]

Clumsy Astronaut wrote...

@ militarizes the fact that it was constructed with superior tech means that we probably do not have the means or amterials to produce it. If I left an M-16 in the 18th century they would probably be able to copy elements of it's design, but at a much lower level due to materials restrictions and lack of facilities made for it's production

last post I swear

That's not really accurate, we're not reproducing the Reaper gun we've simply used it as inspiration for making our own type of gun that is obviously effective, and again, proveably mass produced if they put it on that many ships in such a short span of time, when they didn't feel the need to mass produce it. There is no shortage of materials... there is an entire galaxy to take resources from, if they were able to put all those resources into the Crucible they can do it for weapons manufacturing. 

[weltraumhamster89]

Catroi wrote...

We never needed the freaking Catalyst, just mass produce better Thanix Canons instead of concentrate all your ressources on a freaking machine that you don't even know what it makes

This.