1334 réponses à ce sujet

[mokponobi]

Thanks Mr Woo, for engaging the fans in a discussion for a bit. I appreciate hearing from you guys even if I disagree with what is said.

Hopefully, you can pick out the posts that are polite and respectful and continue to be patient with the hot heads.

Cheers.

[Diablos2525]

KingKhan03 wrote...

A.B.C

It's easy as 1,2,3!

[Danilo Luis]

Every time someone from Bioware says something, they do it at a really defensive position, throwing in our faces comments like "we receive X perfect scores out there", "we understand that some of you may be discontent", and so on. This or they just act, somehow, offensive, or misdirect the critics we are giving then. And then, the most common behavior, just give us silence. But, yeah, seems like we gonna have to wait until pax to know the future of the franchise and how they gonna
address the ending. I, at least, will wait until there. If they, somehow, change the current behavior, I might give another chance to bioware. If they don't, well, there's a lot of game companies out there where I ll be throwing my money at.

The art market is really bustling this days.

[alx119]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Why is it so hard for you to stick to a successful formula? Is it a sort of contest? I don't get it.

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

I disagree with the first, I do agree that it's probably not the "worst possible" ending. But that it was bad it's a given, given all the controversy surrounding it. Unless it was intentional of course. But believing, or lead to believe, it was not, that still qualifies the ending as pretty bad. When fans complain, is not because they are all a "bunch of entitled whiners." But because something has gone wrong. Whatever happened to the old "the client is always right?"

As for the second, I'd agree if it weren't because you -have not- stick to that formula. You make one game that's an absolute success, but then you change the formula to another one, combining the winning parts of the first one (ME1 and ME2), that game luckily is also a succeed, and then you have a third game with a different formula, where you actually manage to combine the actual good parts of the first two formulas and manage to make a best seller... And manage to ruin that in the last 10 minutes of the game. And people is being forgiving for now, they are too focused on the ending to give actual critizism to certain parts of the content (because, mind you, some of the things in ME3 feels like you're trying a whole new formula where you don't really need it). In which comes in mind the DA2 formula, that totally backfired, and with the game as a whole, not just an ending.  

Again, if you have something that works, stick to it until it doesn't work. The problem I've noticed with BioWare games is that you don't stick to your old formulas, the ones that really worked. And you can't say "because they wouldn't work" or "because the world evolves" because, well you haven't tried. 

My two cents. 

[The Angry One]

Blackmind1 wrote...

I have nothing against you personally, it was just an observation I've made. Sometimes it's good to be passionate, I just wish some in here would calm down a little.

I am respectful to those who respect me, and dismissive of those who insult me. That's how I've always been.
I have argued with some developers here now and then, such as David Gaider, who I respect for a) communicating with fans, not letting his position get in the way of what he needs to say and c) being a damn good debater.

[Divitiacus]

Geneaux486 wrote...

You're ignoring the fact that decisions made in the game have no impact on A B or C regardless of the far flung impact that in the end all end up with stargazing grampa

I've ignored nothing.  Your choices affect your EMS, which affects the endings.  Your choices also impact each and every major story arc in this game, even right up to the ending.

Any one of these things taken by itself sounds good, but when you put it all together it falls apart. Like I said, it's way too off topic to get into here, you've clearly ignored the many articles that explain why from a marketing, story, dramatic, cinematic, perspective it falls apart, but I won't get into it. You don't want to listen, because if you did you would have already at least understood the argument well enough to not mischaracterize it. I won't waste my time.

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.

All of us have been civil, even in the face of remarks which I think uncalled for and oversimplifications of our argument.
If the actualy developers would engage us they would find us respectful but firm in our positions.

Do you honestly think ALL of you have been civil? Not trying to offend or anything but you are dellusional if you believe this.

Members of the movement have launched personal attacks on the devs and attack players who have different opinions then them, thats hardly civil.

Yes but Pro-enders are doing the same.  Neither side is justified in doing so.

People need to stop looking at the choice few individuals who make a group look bad and start looking at the group as a whole.

I agree, but sadly it is the choice few who get the most attention from everyone else, and it has always been that way in all groups.

[WizenSlinky0]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Nothing that any pro-ender could say would ever get through to a Retaker. Each of us have already made up our minds, so to argue our points would be futile.

Debate is never futile. And I quite assure you making up your mind does not mean you can't consider additional perspectives.

I do it all the time! New perspectives are fuuuun.

[Taboo]

loudent3 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

It doesn't The *REST* of ME has that kind of power, the only power the ending seems to have is to be so different that it almost feels like it was created by someone completely unfamiliar with the ME series.

The problem I found Stanley was that the ending left me with nothing. I can't grasp at something I can't extrapolate data from. The ending makes sense in a David Lynch universe, not the Mass Effect one.

[MetalCargo999]

felipejiraya wrote...

Well, this thread had an interesting development.

Agreed. LOL

[Hoki]

 cool, now disconnect multiplayer from affecting the singleplayer

[ZiegenkonigIII]

loudent3 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

It doesn't The *REST* of ME has that kind of power, the only power the ending seems to have is to be so different that it almost feels like it was created by someone completely unfamiliar with the ME series.

Well, the ending has managed to sprout discussion, and even...speculation..

However, these discussions have neither been enjoyable nor necessary.  The only reason anybody has been discussing anything is that they are all desperate for any amount of closure.  We are basically doing the writer's jobs for them.  These "discussions" and "speculations", for the most part, should have been included in-game as explanations.

[Exeider]

loudent3 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

It doesn't The *REST* of ME has that kind of power, the only power the ending seems to have is to be so different that it almost feels like it was created by someone completely unfamiliar with the ME series.

exactly, almost like a completely different writing staff, someone who had been watching too much BSG, and not played ME. The flavoring of the ending was completely different then what had been established earlier, even in the same GAME.

-AE

[Geneaux486]

They don't make sense if you have to come up with some absurd justification to help your cause. The Indoc theory is that absurd thing, and while I agree it has a lot of evidence, it is nonetheless absurd. 

Who's talking about Indoc Theory?  I don't support that theory, I support the ending at face value.

and everything gets thrown out at the ending so...

It's not restated in the last five minutes, that's not the same as getting thrown out.

[CINCTuchanka]

I would also like to make the point that I DON'T believe that all Retakers are uncivil. The absolute best, most polite and most intellectually stimulating critiques have been very negative towards the endings.

However, the opposite is also true, I've seen some really unsettling anger directed towards individuals in BioWare and some ridiculous strawmen erected against the endings. Keep up the awesome logical arguments Retakers! Less of the anger!

More Paragon, less Renegade!

[Paparob]

Alright in attempt to "clarify" people don't like the endings because... 

• They are visually very similar, functionally identically.
• The consequences of the three options at the end aren't explained on a personal level for the characters we know or a societal level for the civilizations we've interacted with rendering the choice much less important.
• The Star Child seemingly comes out of left field with a conflict that was never the main conflict and one we resolved already
• Being Paragon or Renegade doesn't matter because they both seemingly have the exact same impact in the end
• Many they felt they were led to believe the ending in it of itself would be more complex beyond three options
• There are plot holes that the endings bring up that further confuse the issue

[Aznable Char]

felipejiraya wrote...

Well, this thread had an interesting development.

I think it was a positive one . I think people need to have the valuable reminder that being here demanding that the developers hold their hand and give them face time is INDEED entitlement .

It is a privilege if they speak to us at all .

I think people need to realize that these developers that you love who have spun this story are good at making stories , not making friends with disgruntled fans .

so instead of demanding with your voices as if somehow Mr. Woo is going to magically understand our plight , simply buy somewhere else . If you think they are not listening , then the loudest shout you can make is by recommending someone buy Diablo III instead of Dragon Age III . Think about it for a while .

Modifié par Aznable Char, 29 mars 2012 - 02:27 .

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

I suppose Mr. Woo has taken the wisest road, and took leave of this thread, because it can only end up damaging Bioware. However, if not, I hope the people on Bioware's staff read this:

We're willing to wait for a respons. However, what we are not willing to do, is allow ourselves to be strung along. No definitive answer has been giving by Bioware or EA, not a definitive date on when we will have such a definitive answer. YYou must agree that it is reasonable for people to become frustrated when one wishes to engage in a dialogue, but end up in a monologue thanks to the other party's refusal to give any substantive answer. Even if you were not able to give an answer at this time, an explanation WHY exactly it is impossible would be sufficient for us to know that we are at least being listened to.

Now, your statement that we have to willingly accept a response that disagrees with us, I find odd. You are saying that, simply because you say something we disagree with, we have to accept that as the end-all of this? Please correct me if I am wrong, because I find it hard to believe that. Yes, you may have a different opinion, and the fact that you have a different opinion we accept (or most of us, in any case). However, that does not mean we will not continue to change that opinion by way of arguments. You disagree with us? Fine. We're willing to engage in a dialogue. We are willing to talk about it. But until we find a compromis that most of us can live with, we won't stop talking and arguing are requests. And the truth of the matter is, that you're not the one deciding what compromis that is: all of us, you, me, and the fans are. 

[Blackmind1]

Exeider wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Just to let everyone know; This amount of mass childish behaviour and angry ranting is exactly why they haven't engaged you yet. Stanley came down to show that the team respects all of our thoughts, and you jumped down his throat.

This is how I know you're all still children. You want respect? Show respect.

respect is earned and given, not taken and entitled. You might want to think about this for a second. When they handed us that ending (probably KNOWING it wasnt going to go down well) and then gave us a prompt to buy more content, that was a slap in the face and a general sign of disrespect.

Why should i give someone respect that clearly shows me none.
-AE

Every single person, no matter what, is entitled to respect from a fellow human being (Unless they've killed a baby or raped somebody). Showing respect, even when somebody has wronged you, is a sign of maturity and understanding.

As far as I know, Bioware haven't killed any babies, so they will continue to be given respect, especially when their respect is given to me by people such as Stanley. 

Delivering a bad ending and then trying their damned hardest to clean up the fallout is not a sign of disrespect. When the companies founder himself addresses your problem, you've got the respect you should need. You then begin repaying in turn.

At least, that's how an adult would act.

Modifié par Blackmind1, 29 mars 2012 - 02:28 .

[shinobi602]

Shouldn't have made this topic. We shouldn't come off as arrogant, and Bioware will be less likely to hear us....

We should be as humble as possible.

[Felene]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Do you honestly think ALL of you have been civil? Not trying to offend or anything but you are dellusional if you believe this.

Members of the movement have launched personal attacks on the devs and attack players who have different opinions then them, thats hardly civil.

I find YOU intenionally troll baiting other anti-ending poster into rage and uncivilized post. Link

[Snakedude4life]

camcon2100 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.

All of us have been civil, even in the face of remarks which I think uncalled for and oversimplifications of our argument.
If the actualy developers would engage us they would find us respectful but firm in our positions.

This if Bioware wants to label all of their fans as angry and entitled children thats fine thing is we love what Bioware has done before. We love all the developers, we don't like simplifing the situation under the label of "trolls". Bioware is a business, this is not good business to alienate the fans that love you the most...

One such case in point: IN this thread: 

Stanley Woo wrote...

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

Apparently, I Am the Sole Progenitor of the RBG Mythos.

[Divitiacus]

Look, I do respect Stanley Woo. I respect him well enough to not mindlessly praise him.I appreciate you speaking to us, but I fear a pretense. I am saying what I have seen. I'm saying what concerns me. I'm sorry I don't trust total strangers.

I don't think it's entitled to expect honesty. At least if a company expects our patronage.

Modifié par Divitiacus, 29 mars 2012 - 02:27 .

[Diablos2525]

The Angry One wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.

All of us have been civil, even in the face of remarks which I think uncalled for and oversimplifications of our argument.
If the actualy developers would engage us they would find us respectful but firm in our positions.

Do you honestly think ALL of you have been civil? Not trying to offend or anything but you are dellusional if you believe this.

There will always be extremists. Those who cross the line can be banned. End of problem.

Or as Mr. Woo would say "End of line"

[WizenSlinky0]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Every single person, no matter what, is entitled to respect from a fellow human being (Unless they've killed a baby or raped somebody). Showing respect, even when somebody has wronged you, is a sign of maturity and understanding.

As far as I know, Bioware haven't killed any babies, so they will continue to be given respect, especially when their respect is given to me by people such as Stanley. 

Of course they haven't killed babies. We distracted them with cupcakes.

You have no idea how many babies could have been lost...you have no idea...