1334 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

It's not restated in the last five minutes, that's not the same as getting thrown out.

No, it's thrown out.

Example:

Kill Wrex, destroy Maelon's data, sabotage genophage cure = Krogan are doomed.

Save Wrex, keep data, deploy genophage cure = Krogan are doomed regardless, because the mass relays are all down, Wrex is trapped on Earth and they have no starships.

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 mars 2012 - 02:28 .

[KroganBillie]

[Violation of Rule #6 removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 29 mars 2012 - 02:43 .

[warrior256]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.

All of us have been civil, even in the face of remarks which I think uncalled for and oversimplifications of our argument.
If the actualy developers would engage us they would find us respectful but firm in our positions.

Do you honestly think ALL of you have been civil? Not trying to offend or anything but you are dellusional if you believe this.

Members of the movement have launched personal attacks on the devs and attack players who have different opinions then them, thats hardly civil.

I'm not going to defend every single member of the movement. I'll gladly admit that many people on our side have been rude and have tarnished our reputations image. But I will not pretend that the pro-ending side has been any better. There have been attacks on members of the retake movement for no particular reason. For example, I can't tell you how many threads i've seen created by pro-ending supporters whose sole argument is that we are just stupid, entitled fanboys. Lets be honest and admit that neither side is perfect.

[Dragoonlordz]

The Angry One wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You do not understand what logic is. It is logical to gain emotional enjoyment from an element designed to provoke such a response, it is logical to expect a lot of questions, use of imagination and thinking when it was designed to do so. These things it did. It accomplished it's goal. It is not illogical when recieve such things and had a desire for them to exist at that point, for a person to be happy with what they got.

Missing the point.
The endings are illogical. Not the people that like them.
Again, if you like the endings in spite of their nonsensicalness, good for you.

But you cannot argue that they make any sense. The Normandy scene has no context, no logic and is completely out of character.
The Catalyst is a narrative disaster, introducing a new character with new elements in the final segment of the story, it violates every literary rule for a classic hero/adventure story out there.

Yes it lacks context and exposition which is not an issue for some like myself, but that is what they specifically already said will deal with in the forthcoming DLC. However just because it lacks details does not make any possiblity that someone comes up with as illogical. It is just you do not except their logic.

[Joykilledme]

Geneaux486 wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Most people weren't expecting a fix right now. We know those things take time. All most people wanted was acknowledgement that we were upset, that there had been an error in judgement made, and that steps would be taken to rectify said error.

They did acknowlege that some fans were upset. That doesn't mean they would (or should) agree that the ending was a mistake. There are many good reasons to stand by it. Their willingness to compromise as much as they already have has gone above and beyond what I'd expect from any developement team.

There is absolutely no reason to stand by those endings and the only reason to want to do so is if you don't really care about the franchise anymore.

Long as we're stating our own opinions as facts:  There is absolutely no reason to stand against those endings and the only reason to want to do so is if you don't really care about the franchise anymore. 

Seriously though, I can understand having problems with the ending, but to say that it is factually bad, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is just wrong, says more about your own ego than anything else.  There are plenty of people on this very forum who like the ending.  They've made topics, they've posted in discussions, and they bring great arguments in favor of the ending to the table. 

I have yet to see Any good arguments on how the endings are good I've only seen literally hundreds of perfectly logical reasons why the endings are horrible. In this case I'd say the group of people that actually like the ending are so much of the minority its almost laughable ! there is obviously a problem ...

[JaylaClark]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

I'm ... going to have to agree on this. Slightly.

I can swear, I think I can see what Casey and Mac were going for. And I even give them credit ... because Drew's published target kinda would be worse, in my opinion. (Giving 'dark energy' three mentions in the second game isn't that much more foreshadowing than this one got, though you have to look harder to find it. And I'm going on the assumption that the theme is a 'common thread' set up by the very first game, "You needed the krogans to fight the rachni, then you needed the turians to fight the krogan... where does it all end?" I choose to paraphrase that. The theme I see is the cycle of 'creator pre-emptively trying to destroy the created before the created can execute a rebellion it didn't even really want to do in the first place'. Or, 'people are a problem'. /Douglas_Adams )

The problem is execution. From the errors in logic that are never explored to the lack of explanation of why Shepard would want to do this... Stanley, people are convinced that this kills everyone in the galaxy because all the relays blow and 'a relay kills a system' like in Arrival; no one said otherwise. People are convinced that they were on the cusp of winning by brute force, or should be, and no one said they weren't. People are convinced Green is evil because 'it's just like what Saren wanted' and no one clarified otherwise. People are convinced Joker was running away like a coward because no one said why he was several relays away. People are convinced that everyone is going to die from famine because 'they're dependent on interstellar travel and they can't even communicate with anyone anymore (forgetting those nifty QEC devices apparently) let alone get anywhere'... you see where the pattern lies.

And let me make this clear: I don't believe any of these things, yet I don't blame anyone for thinking them. "Lots and lots of speculation" is good for a middle chapter. It outright sucks for an end of a trilogy. We spent $180 US minimum to play these games and spent a minimum of seventy hours on them. There are TV series that are over in less time. We deserve answers, and we were given more questions.

And I hope you're not on the 'precedence' kick, because there is precedent: WALL-E. Yes, I'm swerving you with this, thought that I'd go with Broken Steel, well I won't, I didn't play it. I did watch WALL-E when it came out on DVD, and I remember a hand-drawn sequence over the credits, showing humanity's recovery of Earth. You know, that wasn't in the original cut. But test audiences kept coming back with the view that 'humanity has no chance on, well, Earth, of surviving, you see how they were on the ship? Not a chance' so Pixar added the coda to say, yes, it is possible, and here's how it happened. We get a scene far off in the future with no explanation on how those two are where they are. And occasionally an utterly improbable survival back in the present (?). That's not enough.

I think we need clarity, closure, and catharsis out of the ending, and we need it for free. I'll support people who want to pay for more and/or alternate endings, with the understanding that they have to pay for it if they're doing more work. Particularly if they need to get Martin Sheen et al. involved in the studio. But I have paid, over the years, two hundred and eighty dollars, involving two separate copies of ME1 and ME2 based on a lost access to a working 360, for this story. I really think I've earned my happy ending, but I've certainly earned an ending. These don't qualify. Tell C-Hud that I said so.

... I needed to get that out.

[Alexraptor1]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

With all due respect, the majority of your customers hate the ending.
The people who actually like it are a small minority.

I could point to all the forum feedback, polls on various sites etc, but i wont.
Instead I point to all my friends that hate the ending, and their friends in turn who also hate the ending, and acquaintances and workmates and their friends that also dislike the ending.
Off the internet I do not know or have heard of one single person who has liked the ending.

I don't know how or why, but ME3 was a great ride right up to the final moments where it simply feels like someone stopped caring and whipped up a half-baked ending that completely invalidates the entire ME trilogy.

[Geneaux486]

So fleets you've gathered affect wheather Shepard takes breath. You mean that impact...Ok 

EMS also includes staff you have working on the Crucible.  The more resources you have for it, the better it will function, and yes, that could influence whether or not Shepard lives.

Any one of these things taken by itself sounds good, but when you put it all together it falls apart. Like I said, it's way too off topic to get into here, you've clearly ignored the many articles that explain why from a marketing, story, dramatic, cinematic, perspective it falls apart, but I won't get into it. You don't want to listen, because if you did you would have already at least understood the argument well enough to not mischaracterize it. I won't waste my time. 

So because I disagree I must have just ignored everything?  Like I said, says more about your own ego than it does about anything else.

 

Kill Wrex, destroy Maelon's data, sabotage genophage cure = Krogan are doomed.

Save Wrex, keep data, deply genophage cure = Krogan are doomed regardless, because the mass relays are all down, Wrex is trapped on Earth and they have no starships.

Or everyone works together to survive a temporary travel breakdown and rebuilds.  Your argument here is based on your own opinion of what happens after the game is over, not based on fact.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 29 mars 2012 - 02:30 .

[ahandsomeshark]

Danilo Luis wrote...

Every time someone from Bioware says something, they do it at a really defensive position, throwing in our faces comments like "we receive X perfect scores out there", "we understand that some of you may be discontent", and so on. This or they just act, somehow, offensive, or misdirect the critics we are giving then. And then, the most common behavior, just give us silence. But, yeah, seems like we gonna have to wait until pax to know the future of the franchise and how they gonna
address the ending. I, at least, will wait until there. If they, somehow, change the current behavior, I might give another chance to bioware. If they don't, well, there's a lot of game companies out there where I ll be throwing my money at.

The art market is really bustling this days.

yeah this is my biggest issue. I'd rather them just come out and say, there will be no statements or decisions until xx day. Or say we think there is nothing wrong with the endings and you can all eat a [redacted]. Or our bad we ran out of money and time. Just not PR speak, does anyone actually think PR speak accomplishes anything in the age of the internet? Or at least tell the PR people to develop some new PR speak tactics.

Modifié par ahandsomeshark, 29 mars 2012 - 02:32 .

[MetalCargo999]

whoa... yea, I just read the heated conversation that Stanley Woo had with some people. Looks a lot like we need a neutral third party to moderate any further conversations. Stanley Woo, if you're reading this, disregard trolls being rude to you. When you argue with a fool, you bring yourself down to his level, and then he beats you with experience. Keep it civil, ladies and gents!

[Straw_foot]

Careful, I'm American and easily mad with power.

Modifié par Straw_foot, 29 mars 2012 - 02:30 .

[felipejiraya]

shinobi602 wrote...

Shouldn't have made this topic. We shouldn't come off as arrogant, and Bioware will be less likely to hear us....

We should be as humble as possible.

Yup, it was a mistake.

[Mesmurae]

Consumers in any market carry the most power. People just don't seem to realize this. In our modern society, it's become much easier for us to organize and be heard.

Consumers carry all of the power in a competitive market. If we dislike a product, we have the power to not purchase it and take our money elsewhere.

[Sohlito]

Aznable Char wrote...

I also agree with Mr. Woo (in so far that I understand him) in the sense that complaining about something to be done on our time and on our schedule is not within our realm of discretion nor is it in the realm of our discretion to determine when something is addressed and when it's not .

We are not entitled to their attention or their pity , even , even though I am sure we have a lot of their compassion and understanding .

This is what we are entitled to , however:

Our Money
Our Time
Our Attention
Our Recommendation to Others
Our Opinion of the game outside of BioWare's spheres .

So instead of attempting to gain something that we are not entitled to (BioWare handholding us)
Let's exercise what we are entitled to .

Spend your money wisely on what you want . If the ending is not what you want , be like me and buy games that are applicable to our likes .
Don't want to spend 200 hours only to have an ending the ruins the experience ? Play a different game . Spend some time doing something else .
Don't want to be hooked in by what some might consider false promises ? Don't listen to their announcements or attend their functions or watch give them pagehits or things like that .
Wish someone warned you about spending 60 dollars on something that you hated ? Be like me and talk about it with your friends . I told them about my experience and they decided for themselves not to buy from BioWare
Feel strongly about warning others to beware of this product? There are great opportunities to make videos and speak freely and openly outside of a moderated forum .

So again . Let's not worry about what we cannot have from BioWare . Let's focus on what we are indeed entitled to . Let them work and not be bothered . Let us be not bothered by them and spend our money elsewhere .

Lastly , why am I here ? Because I wanted to tell BioWare that I loved the game so much that I am willing to give them a chance to fix the ending in order to win back my fan loyalty , money , recommendations , time , effort , etc . I want to be proud to campaign for BioWare again just like when i convinced my friend Luke to buy Dragon Age Origins or when I convinced Anthony to invest in ME1 . I want to be able to do that again . So the Retake movement is about a love letter to BioWare saying "BioWare , please win me back"

And yes people can say we're making demands . So let's not . If Mr. Woo seriously does not want us to demand or feel entitled then let's please not demand . Let's calmly exercise what we are really entitled with instead of asking for something that is not ours .

I agree with the portions in bold.

I am, like many, giving Bioware this chance out of respect and admiration. For filling out my game library with some of the best titles I have had the privilage to pay for and play.  It's a second chance, a way to show your fanbase that you are still, after all these years, listening. And once again I'll reiterate, fanbase, the very same that has enabled you to continue making title after title.

That said, for me personally, it's the only chance I am giving them.

Also, if I may touch on a few things I have read in this particular thread. The age of Bioware fans is not in question here, one proponent of the ending has elluded to such, and it's wrong. Granted, some have acted with a certain intensity and furvor, but when you look at how many people have invested time and MONEY into this franchise, it shouldn't come as a surprise. Hell, I get "hulk smash" angry when a soda machine takes my money and leaves me without my beverage.

Secondly, patience IS a virtue, and unfortunately one we have no choice in exercising. Bioware has made their statements, and will be sticking with those until they feel it's time to address it. Is it right to ignore the proverbial elephant in the room? No. But we can't force them to. If they say anything further on the issue, it will be at PAX most likely.

Lastly, there is a division amongst us, some of us are fortunate enough to be satisfied with the ending, but many of us are still struggling to make sense of it. If you like the endings, that's good. If you don't, stay as civil as possible about it. I know even civility has it's limits but there's not much else we can do. Attacking each other gets us no where and gives the genuine trolls more to work with in regards to both sides.

This may be ignored, but if you took time to read it, you're awesome.

[Schief724]

Geneaux486 wrote...
 
I almost can't believe I just read that.  You're right, anything can be argued.  This invalidates every single supporter of the endings how?

I'm sure Hitler argued that his solution was logical in his eyes, but that doesn't make it right.

Of coruse that is a grossly exaggerated metaphor, but I did that intentionally to show you that just because YOU think something is correct and logical, does not make it correct and logical. It just makes it your opinion.

[ticklefist]

Well ****. I've been humbled. I don't even have it in me to call out the guy that said "irregardless."

[Tovanus]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Just to let everyone know; This amount of mass childish behaviour and angry ranting is exactly why they haven't engaged you yet. Stanley came down to show that the team respects all of our thoughts, and you jumped down his throat.

This is how I know you're all still children. You want respect? Show respect.

Oh please. Bioware "hasn't engaged" people because they're acting childish? They're not engaging because they botched the thing to an almost irretrievable degree, and they're not sure how to respond to a tidal wave of backlash. Hiding behind the "some people on the forums aren't completely civil" defense is a pretty strong admission that they don't know what they're doing. A company that wants to engage with civil fans, that uses internet forums, can ALWAYS find a civil thread to do so. They can make a post that's locked for comments in response to general sentiments seen on the forum. We've gotten a limited amount of that here already. The reality is that if people weren't jumping down Bioware's throats every day to this degree, nothing - absolutely nothing - would have even the slightest hope of getting done.  Trying to equate fan anger (which often manifests in clever and funny ways on these forums) with fan "childishness" comes across as if you have some deep need to be viewed as, "one of the adults in the room." 

The reality is that the ending is terrible. Go read one of the articles that dissects the ending in detail (i.e. an article like the California Literary Review, or the article constantly linked analogizing it to Lord of the Rings), or go watch one of the Youtube videos treating it in great detail (there's a great new one by someone paying homage to Redlettermedia's reviews of the SW trilogy in their review of ME 3's ending). Avoid articles that briefly touch on a theme and don't treat the end in brutal detail. There is no comment, no defense, no action on these forums any individual fan can take that will change the massive fan reaction to the endings. The most civil thread in the world won't make Bioware engage more. The most vitriolic angry bitter mess of a thread won't make them ignore the situation out of distaste for "childish" fans. At the end of the day, they'll either engage meaningfully with the mass anger by making a meaningful change, or they'll ignore it and lose a huge portion of their fanbase that will just seek out other companies.

[Aznable Char]

alx119 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Why is it so hard for you to stick to a successful formula? Is it a sort of contest? I don't get it.

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

I disagree with the first, I do agree that it's probably not the "worst possible" ending. But that it was bad it's a given, given all the controversy surrounding it. Unless it was intentional of course. But believing, or lead to believe, it was not, that still qualifies the ending as pretty bad. When fans complain, is not because they are all a "bunch of entitled whiners." But because something has gone wrong. Whatever happened to the old "the client is always right?"

As for the second, I'd agree if it weren't because you -have not- stick to that formula. You make one game that's an absolute success, but then you change the formula to another one, combining the winning parts of the first one (ME1 and ME2), that game luckily is also a succeed, and then you have a third game with a different formula, where you actually manage to combine the actual good parts of the first two formulas and manage to make a best seller... And manage to ruin that in the last 10 minutes of the game. And people is being forgiving for now, they are too focused on the ending to give actual critizism to certain parts of the content (because, mind you, some of the things in ME3 feels like you're trying a whole new formula where you don't really need it). In which comes in mind the DA2 formula, that totally backfired, and with the game as a whole, not just an ending.  

Again, if you have something that works, stick to it until it doesn't work. The problem I've noticed with BioWare games is that you don't stick to your old formulas, the ones that really worked. And you can't say "because they wouldn't work" or "because the world evolves" because, well you haven't tried. 

My two cents. 

I'll tell you why "the customer is always right" disappeared . Because not enough customers are exercising their proper rights .

People think "the customer is always right" means that we go into a store and yell at the manager until he gets intimidated , fails his saving throw , and has to give us our money back or whatever .


Wrong .

the customer is always right came about because if people didn't like a product they spent their money elsewhere because the customer has the right over his money .

So what's the best way to get BioWare to reach out to us ?

Stop bothering trying to reach out to them if you believe they aren't listening . instead , refuse to buy their DLCs , return your games if you wish , do not pre-order or buy their games if you wish , and , if you're like me , speak about this controversy to your friends and see if they also make up their mind not to give money to a company that does not seek the satisfaction of their customers .

If we truly want "the customer is always right" to prevail (though that's a bit extreme ; I think the Retake request about the ending is very fair since it's such a small portion of the product) then exercise your right to withhold your money now , in the future , and get your money back . Then whether or not Mr. Woo can empathize with you doesn't matter . The higher ups will try to court us back .

[Dragoonlordz]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

It's not restated in the last five minutes, that's not the same as getting thrown out.

No, it's thrown out.

Example:

Kill Wrex, destroy Maelon's data, sabotage genophage cure = Krogan are doomed.

Save Wrex, keep data, deploy genophage cure = Krogan are doomed regardless, because the mass relays are all down, Wrex is trapped on Earth and they have no starships.

They are still not doomed. The race still exists and your assuming that they would be self destructive instead of being actually shown as playing out that way in front of you. The relays situation does not equal all life wiped out there are many ways using logic to interpret different outcomes from implosion instead of explosion to altered state of the energy wave via the catalyst and more.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mars 2012 - 02:34 .

[Stanley Woo]

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

[withneelandi]

Assuming the ending is to be taken literally, I think it is pretty fair to describe the possible end sequences as red green and blue, when literally they are the same CGI seqence tinted red,green and blue.

Sure, we are asked to choose from 3 option which theoreticallly should produce very different outcomes for the galaxy but nothing in what bioware has presented us with so far in the game actually illustrates any differences based which of the 3 options we pick, or provide the player with any significant alternative based on choices made during the game, or the EMS system implemented.

I can make an argument for why the ending is good, but it involves a lot of assumption and supposition. I will concede Mr Woo's point that the ending has provoked disscussion, but not the positive sort of discussion that an open ended, well exectuted and consructed narrative like Pulp Fiction generated.

The problem is the nature of the disscussion created, if you write something that makes your fans think you have suceeded as a writer. If you write something that makes your fan base angry and confused it may be time to conceed that however good the idea you wanted to convey the execution of that idea was poor. I would respectfully suggest that the majorityof the discussion on the end of mass effect 3's ending is born out of sadness, anger, frustration and confusion than a sense or wonder or ntrigue as would be the case in a great open ended narrative.

There is much to celebrate in Mass Effect 3, you had me almost in tears at the resolution of the Geth/Quarian conflict or at the action of the Doc on the Krogan homeworld. The game mechanics are a huge leap forward, the multiplayer is great fun, I could go on but I won't

To any of the Mass Effect team reading this please attach the same weight to my criticism of your work as you do to my praise, I say this out of passion and love for your work not a desire to bad mouth it or be negative.

Whether the ending is to be taken literally, or is perhaps symbolic or fits into the one various theories put forward here or else where I think it is fair to say that it does not do a good enough job of conveying it's message to the player.

I can do complex and symbloic narrative, before I started studying Law, I studied English literature at university with a particular focus on experimental prose fiction, yet I think the ending presented at the end of Me3 was either poorly thought through or not communicated well to the player, I understand the compulsion to defend your work but at some point it is healthy to be open about when your work has not worked out as well as it usually does.

In short by making comments about the "red green and blue" ending we don't seek to cheapen or simplyify the ending, thats just what we saw. There may be a deeper meaning but I don't honestly think it was properly communicated to the player, leading to the reaction you have had.

Please take my criticism in context, I wouldn't even bother to type this if I didn't love your work and I wouldn't have spend 30+ hours playing the game through to the ending if it hadn't been a positive exerience up to that point.

[Divitiacus]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Any one of these things taken by itself sounds good, but when you put it all together it falls apart. Like I said, it's way too off topic to get into here, you've clearly ignored the many articles that explain why from a marketing, story, dramatic, cinematic, perspective it falls apart, but I won't get into it. You don't want to listen, because if you did you would have already at least understood the argument well enough to not mischaracterize it. I won't waste my time. 

So because I disagree I must have just ignored everything?  Like I said, says more about your own ego than it does about anything else.

 

Look at that, you did it again. Come on, man. You just said I'm saying something I didn't say. I'm saying you called the criticism strawmen, you refuse to articulate what the actual complaints are when you discuss it, and thus you are attacking a strawman. You're delegitimizing the complaint and the argument instead of engaging with it.

[The Angry One]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Yes it lacks context and exposition which is not an issue for some like myself, but that is what they specifically already said will deal with in the forthcoming DLC. However just because it lacks details does not make any possiblity that someone comes up with as illogical. It is just you do not except their logic.

We have proven time and again that there is no explanation for Joker fleeing that doesn't include the words "cowardice in the face of the enemy" and "court martial".
There is no explanation for them snapping out of sublight without getting bathed in lethal radiation (codex), somehow being in range of a planet, somehow landing on that planet without engines and doing so without disturbing the foliage around the ship that will make sense.

It doesn't just lack context, it lacks coherence of any kind.

[MaximizedAction]

felipejiraya wrote...

Well, this thread had an interesting development.

Neither did I expect anything really nice when I saw the thread's title.

http://tinyurl.com/d5bn9yc

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 29 mars 2012 - 02:36 .