1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

Felene wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

It's not restated in the last five minutes, that's not the same as getting thrown out.

No, it's thrown out.

Example:

Kill Wrex, destroy Maelon's data, sabotage genophage cure = Krogan are doomed.

Save Wrex, keep data, deploy genophage cure = Krogan are doomed regardless, because the mass relays are all down, Wrex is trapped on Earth and they have no starships.

They are still not doomed. The race still exists and your assuming that they would be self destructive instead of being actually shown as playing out that way in front of you. The relays situation does not equal all life wiped out there are many ways using logic to interpret different outcomes from implosion instead of explosion to altered state of the energy wave via the catalyst and more.

Lots of speculation from everyone.

It is obvious that pro-ending and anti-ending can only agree on disagree at this point. The ending plot hole is too big for either side to convince the other.

I agree.

[SealKudos]

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

Schief724 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

Mr. Woo

I think it would help the situation of somebody assositated with BioWare specifically stated,

"We understand x, y and z are issues for all of you. We can't promise that we will rectify all of these, because we still have a desire to remain loyal to the vision we set forth with when first creating the game. However we are trying our best to do so that we can satisfy all parties involved"

Just give us something that explicitly states that BioWare actually understands what our issues with the ending are. That will go a long way to building more trust with all of us.

This.

I'm inclined to agree.  This alone would very much help settle things down.

[WizenSlinky0]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

I can sympathize with your predicament and I've recognized it for awhile. But I don't believe withdrawing is the proper way to handle it. Of course, you guys will do what you feel best, but in the end I think Bioware and the developers would inherently benefit from continuing and expanding on engagement with debaterather than simple listening to it.

Well, to be perfectly honest I think the more open anything is makes it inherently better.

But I also recognize that an enviroment where the worst of all groups can tear apart your every sentence can be an unhealthy enviroment to work in. I wouldn't blame people for just dissecting and analyzing the wording and such though. As an example I do that inherently with everything, everybody posts. It's just the way I approach things. I'm very, very concerned with the context, meaning, and tone behind the words I, and others, type. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking an analytical approach when debating or discussing an issue.

Also, I think there's a difference between a healthy level of scepticism in what we take at face value and the outright insults and attacks Bioware has unfortunately recieved. I hope you guys don't confuse them. I think it's healthy consumerism to be skeptical.

But good to have you around, regardless!

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 29 mars 2012 - 02:45 .

[John Epler]

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

[Xion66]

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

Is it wrong everytime I read a reply of yours I read it in Jacob's voice?


OT: Most fans have been good sports, and a concrete statement without looping around the issue would be nice, some people are boiling up, others are being extremist, but I still feel like we've been given crumbs and are expected to smile all the way into April.

[Faerlyte]

Sohlito wrote...

I wonder if I'll get in trouble for quoting my own response to a quote, just so it can get read...

Amazing how often that happens, especially if you're someone who doesn't post often and therefore nobody recognizes.

[The Angry One]

I have never been hostile to anyone. I have been dismissive to those who have shown hostility to me, which include a great many pro-enders who think it's dignified to march in and declare themselves more intelligent and to call us names.

If you consider that hostility, well, I can't do anything about that. Nor will I take any responsibility for anyone who is out of line - I'm not their mother.

[twizbuck]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Can I interject and say I love everyone? I think that everyone is lovely, and I say that in the most loving way.

Well shucks, now I feel like a jerk.

Seriously though, love it.

[Straw_foot]

Stanley Woo wrote...

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

You guys are also our favorite game company, and our reactions come directly from being so involved and pleased with Mass Effect (And Bioware in general) to this point (I'm not a DA2 hater).  The majority of us angry about the ending are huge Bioware fans and want to continue to be. Some of us act like kids (Maybe some even are kids) but most of us have calmed down since the announcement that there will be more info at PAX, as shown by the huge drop in ending related threads. Don't limit communication with us just because some people act like children, you're our resident troll hunter. I don't want 100 threads about Normandys toilets, you make that happen.

You have a chance to make this an all win situation. 

[ZiegenkonigIII]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.

All of us have been civil, even in the face of remarks which I think uncalled for and oversimplifications of our argument.
If the actualy developers would engage us they would find us respectful but firm in our positions.

Pardon me, the Angry One. no disrespect intended to you, but:

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!

A quick tally of the many threads I've had to lock, and the community members I've had to warn and/or ban, would indicate that your statement is patently untrue. Even some of your own posts will often come across as accusatory and somewhat antagonistic, if not hostile.

Stanley, if you're here to instigate us into further anger, you're doing a bang up job, buddy.  Is this what BioWare considers "dialogue with their fans?"

First time I have seen Stanley actually take part in a forum discussion.  Can't say how I feel yet.  Speculations?

[Bedevil123]

Stanley Woo wrote...

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

Why did you guys throw out the DA:O conclusion style? that was brilliant! being able to see and direct the force/armies we built through out the game was extremely satisfing and cool. i have yet to see someone complain about the level of choice or the complexity of the ending possibilities. but then in DA2 and ME3 you guys disreguard that system completely and substitute it with a much a more linear and choice free method. why?

[N7L4D]

GracefulChicken wrote...

Mr. Woo, laying some smaaackdooowwn.

Yes, fans are powerful, as they should be with this form of art (it IS art, btw... "artistic integrity" just changes when the consumers of the art are actively involved in how it plays out), still it shouldn't go to peoples noggins. It doesnt mean every request by a large group of fans should be directly addressed and "solved" if it's a preference problem. This was an out of the ordinary event.

I just hope it doesn't keep devolving into this kind of entitlement we've been seeing. Like Stanley Woo pointed out, there is a difference between reasonable requests and criticisms and outright disrespect and entitlement, and I'm afraid the "Hold the line" thing has the former at heart, but the latter in spades.

If ya smeeeeelllllllllllllllllallll....what the woo...is...cookin;)

[Greer]

The Angry One wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Pardon me, the Angry One. no disrespect intended to you, but:

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!

A quick tally of the many threads I've had to lock, and the community members I've had to warn and/or ban, would indicate that your statement is patently untrue. Even some of your own posts will often come across as accusatory and somewhat antagonistic, if not hostile.

And have you ever thought the general anger might be because we are being stonewalled?
Perhaps if we had some actual communication, we would calm down and use the opportunity to, you know, talk?

You can't hide behind a brick wall throwing out buzzwords like "artistic integrity" and "our endings not yours" and expect people to take it and smile forever.
As for the extremists? If they get out of line, ban them. But the fact remains you won't give us a chance.

Quoted for truth

[Blackmind1]

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

I'll bet everybody at Bioware is sat around yours and Stanley's monitors with popcorn right now lol

[The Angry One]

John Epler wrote...

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

That doesn't justifiy tarring us with the same brush. We're not some club that can control and sanction our members, and personally I think a lot this talk of insults and threats are exagerrations.
I don't see them, unless you're being PMed or something, to which all I can say is that's unfortunate, but not our responsibility.

[felipejiraya]

Lots of speculation from everyone.

[twizbuck]

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

Then look at it in percentages. How many people have been positive in their response, and how many have been negative, in relation to the whole. I understand what you're saying, but some of the things Mr. Woo has said on here are... rather discerning.

[Exeider]

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

I suppose Mr. Woo has taken the wisest road, and took leave of this thread, because it can only end up damaging Bioware. However, if not, I hope the people on Bioware's staff read this:

We're willing to wait for a respons. However, what we are not willing to do, is allow ourselves to be strung along. No definitive answer has been giving by Bioware or EA, not a definitive date on when we will have such a definitive answer. YYou must agree that it is reasonable for people to become frustrated when one wishes to engage in a dialogue, but end up in a monologue thanks to the other party's refusal to give any substantive answer. Even if you were not able to give an answer at this time, an explanation WHY exactly it is impossible would be sufficient for us to know that we are at least being listened to.

Now, your statement that we have to willingly accept a response that disagrees with us, I find odd. You are saying that, simply because you say something we disagree with, we have to accept that as the end-all of this? Please correct me if I am wrong, because I find it hard to believe that. Yes, you may have a different opinion, and the fact that you have a different opinion we accept (or most of us, in any case). However, that does not mean we will not continue to change that opinion by way of arguments. You disagree with us? Fine. We're willing to engage in a dialogue. We are willing to talk about it. But until we find a compromis that most of us can live with, we won't stop talking and arguing are requests. And the truth of the matter is, that you're not the one deciding what compromis that is: all of us, you, me, and the fans are. 

+1

-AE

[Taboo]

Blackmind1 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

I'll bet everybody at Bioware is sat around yours and Stanley's monitors with popcorn right now lol

Now I'm nervous.

[Chernaya]

Divitiacus wrote...

EionaCousland wrote...

Just the fact that Bioware even acknowledges how fans feel and talks to them directly is amazing. It's why it upsets me when I see people spewing hate towards them about the endings and other things they didn't like, instead of constructive criticism. If you treat them like that, how long will they keep listening? D:

What is listening? I think there needs to be some acknowledgment of what our real concerns are first, otherwise it's a mere facade. Also, every one of these criticisms is steeped in "I love Mass Effect soooo much." Sounds like praise, constructive criticism though, as in telling them how to improve it, I think we have that as well. No destruction of the theme out of nowhere, beyond that, we don't want to replace their writers, that would be insulting.

Of course. Though acknowledgement can be shown without threats, name-calling, or immaturity though. That's just what I mean. I wasn't fond of the endings like many others... but the way some people show that just makes me feel like they are pushing us farther back from getting what we want than helping. I'm not saying the majority is being this way either - but I've seen a fair amount of posts with such hostility in them that it's kind of freaky. 

[ahandsomeshark]

Bedevil123 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

Why did you guys throw out the DA:O conclusion style? that was brilliant! being able to see and direct the force/armies we built through out the game was extremely satisfing and cool. i have yet to see someone complain about the level of choice or the complexity of the ending possibilities. but then in DA2 and ME3 you guys disreguard that system completely and substitute it with a much a more linear and choice free method. why?

yeah if anything I'd say bioware did have a formula that guarenteed everyone would like what they've done. Most of us are upset because they're suddenly veering from it.

[KawaiiKatie]

The Angry One wrote...

And have you ever thought the general anger might be because we are being stonewalled?
Perhaps if we had some actual communication, we would calm down and use the opportunity to, you know, talk?

You can't hide behind a brick wall throwing out buzzwords like "artistic integrity" and "our endings not yours" and expect people to take it and smile forever.
As for the extremists? If they get out of line, ban them. But the fact remains you won't give us a chance.

I like this human. He understands.

[lillitheris]

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

Schief724 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

Mr. Woo

I think it would help the situation of somebody assositated with BioWare specifically stated,

"We understand x, y and z are issues for all of you. We can't promise that we will rectify all of these, because we still have a desire to remain loyal to the vision we set forth with when first creating the game. However we are trying our best to do so that we can satisfy all parties involved"

Just give us something that explicitly states that BioWare actually understands what our issues with the ending are. That will go a long way to building more trust with all of us.

This.

That.

…

There's been 0 engagement up to this point. It's pretty low to basically troll this thread for negative response.

[leondes1]

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

Couldn't agree more. We (most of us ) know you guys deal with ton, but really, thank you for coming out here. The majority of us greatly appericate it. One second your getting cupcakes, the next the forum is ablaze with hate.

Thank you again, I shall be waiting April 

[TheWerdna]

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

I completely agree.

I am really starting to get kinda upset with all the peoiple not being civil and going around harassing Bioware employees and/or people who disagree with them. As much as I dislike the ending, I have tried to be as respectful as I can, since it is the right thing to do. I just feel, bad, about all the people who are being, well, jerks.