1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Giantdeathrobot]

I will only say this.

When a large number of your fanbase dearly hopes that the ending you wrote didn't happen and that you will use the frankly quite horrible ''all just a dream'' plot twist (indoctrination theory, no I do not support it, no I am not debating its merits only its existence and popularity), something is terribly, terribly wrong with the ending you wrote, on a fundamental level.

Also, there are bad apples on both sides. If you focus on them, the debate will never advance because it will only end up in a ''who can be blamed more'' endless loop. Stick to debating the logical arguments. And to be blunt, I've seen many more anti-ending in-depth analysis than I've seen pro-ending in-depth studies. Or can someone direct me to a 40 minute video calmly and logically explaining the ending and supporting it? Or a massive bullet list such as the one circulating on google docs?

Oh, and finally I guess Mr. Woo can be congratulated for venturing into the hornet's nest. His responses are always the same thing we get since the beginning of this situation, but at least we know they pay attention. Somewhat.

[ZiegenkonigIII]

Greer wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Pardon me, the Angry One. no disrespect intended to you, but:

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!

A quick tally of the many threads I've had to lock, and the community members I've had to warn and/or ban, would indicate that your statement is patently untrue. Even some of your own posts will often come across as accusatory and somewhat antagonistic, if not hostile.

And have you ever thought the general anger might be because we are being stonewalled?
Perhaps if we had some actual communication, we would calm down and use the opportunity to, you know, talk?

You can't hide behind a brick wall throwing out buzzwords like "artistic integrity" and "our endings not yours" and expect people to take it and smile forever.
As for the extremists? If they get out of line, ban them. But the fact remains you won't give us a chance.

Quoted for truth

Yeah I think this sums it all up pretty well.

[Diablos2525]

Straw_foot wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

You guys are also our favorite game company, and our reactions come directly from being so involved and pleased with Mass Effect (And Bioware in general) to this point (I'm not a DA2 hater).  The majority of us angry about the ending are huge Bioware fans and want to continue to be. Some of us act like kids (Maybe some even are kids) but most of us have calmed down since the announcement that there will be more info at PAX, as shown by the huge drop in ending related threads. Don't limit communication with us just because some people act like children, you're our resident troll hunter. I don't want 100 threads about Normandys toilets, you make that happen.

You have a chance to make this an all win situation. 

QFT

[Sohlito]

Faerlyte wrote...

Sohlito wrote...

I wonder if I'll get in trouble for quoting my own response to a quote, just so it can get read...

Amazing how often that happens, especially if you're someone who doesn't post often and therefore nobody recognizes.

There are preferentials for posts? Or posters in this case.

[GuardianAngel470]

Stanley Woo wrote...

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news Stanley, but we dissect your comments because you are intentionally vague. If you always had a plan in the works, it takes one sentence to placate us:

We are very sorry for our mistake and are making an ending DLC that will address almost all of your complaints and we are taking everything found here into account in order to ensure we satisfy as many of you as possible.


But we simply haven't gotten that Stanley. We simply haven't gotten a straight answer to our question. We've been dodged, evaded, ignored, and insulted. We are already pissed about the ending and now have to contend with the full hyperbolic fury of the gaming media.

We've been marginalized and we are rightfully frustrated. Then statements like Dr. Ray's come out and use cryptic language and particular adjectives that we can't help but take issue with. To say that it is our fault that we get no answers is false. We have been largely civil in that we haven't been outright aggressive (passive aggressive sure). We've been sarcastic, we've made parodies, we've made snide insinuations, and we've done plenty of other things that could be called mean spirited but it is all a reaction to YOU.

We wanted a dialog between friends and got a debate with a politician. Why shouldn't we be angry?

[JMA22TB]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Pardon me, the Angry One. no disrespect intended to you, but:

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!

A quick tally of the many threads I've had to lock, and the community members I've had to warn and/or ban, would indicate that your statement is patently untrue. Even some of your own posts will often come across as accusatory and somewhat antagonistic, if not hostile.

Again, have to say something.

What does it say when people are angry enough to violate cursing rules every single day all day long? When their posts have to be snipped out all the time? 

I mean, it's pretty clear as day that something's wrong right? Why is there a thread with frustrated, shocked, and disappointed pictures describing how they feel about the ending that grows bigger every day? 

If the community continues to express their negative emotions wouldn't that warrant a bit more self-examination instead of laughing at people using inaccurate words to describe genuine sentiments?

[Dreogan]

Someone should retitle this thread to "The Crucifixion of Stanley Woo." Not that I agree with crucifixion, or what he said, but it does seem to be what's happening.

RIP Stanley Woo. In lieu of flowers, the family requests donations to Full Paragon.

Modifié par Dreogan, 29 mars 2012 - 02:50 .

[Asari]

The Angry One wrote...

The thing I don't understand is if BioWare works with those of us who hate the ending... nobody loses.

Those who like the current endings can keep them, the rest of us who don't can get the ones that we feel actually maintain the narrative. Everybody wins.

This.

[Mr Indivisible]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

I don't think this is the 'power' that the developer team was going for, I could be wrong, maybe they wanted to go down as the most controversial game ending in history.

Now the RGB argument does over simplify the matter, however there are pleanty of long winded, and well presented reasons why the endings fail on a narrative level. Sadly they can be drowned out by 'blue babies' and trolling.

[Snakedude4life]

[quote]Stanley Woo wrote...


[quote](I still would like to hear how you guys missed that)[/quote]
I would be wary of making such assumptions. Since you aren't on the development team, you can't really know if it was missed, what the issues invovled are, or how or why it appears in the final game. This is a common assumption when players find bugs in the game, but few bugs are well and truly "missed," as you define it.
[/quote]


Well, It one thing for it to be a bug that was a rare thing to occur in shop, it's quite another if you guys KNEW about it but didn't tell anyone one about it until after the release.

So did you (or the testers) miss the bug or "missed" it?[/quote]


Loving how I asked you what's the story behind the ME1 face import bug and I got a "you were not here, you don't understand."

Please, oh please enlighten us on how you missed it? (implying you guys caught it as the game is/or went gold) or you "missed" it? (knew about it but didn't warn anyone about it until the release for reasons inferred)

[warrior256]

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

I couldn't have said it better myself. You guys must be going through hell right about now, but it is nice to see that you still realize that many people are trying to remain civil. Thanks!

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

The Angry One wrote...

John Epler wrote...

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

That doesn't justifiy tarring us with the same brush. We're not some club that can control and sanction our members, and personally I think a lot this talk of insults and threats are exagerrations.
I don't see them, unless you're being PMed or something, to which all I can say is that's unfortunate, but not our responsibility.

PERSONALLY you think talk of insults and threats are exagerrations?

You don't see them because the threads are locked and deleted.

I really can not continue to take you seriously.

[twizbuck]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Bedevil123 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

Why did you guys throw out the DA:O conclusion style? that was brilliant! being able to see and direct the force/armies we built through out the game was extremely satisfing and cool. i have yet to see someone complain about the level of choice or the complexity of the ending possibilities. but then in DA2 and ME3 you guys disreguard that system completely and substitute it with a much a more linear and choice free method. why?

yeah if anything I'd say bioware did have a formula that guarenteed everyone would like what they've done. Most of us are upset because they're suddenly veering from it.

I miss how DA:O ended... you had a choice to die or live, and everything was put to rest afterward.

[WizenSlinky0]

The Angry One wrote...

John Epler wrote...

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

That doesn't justifiy tarring us with the same brush. We're not some club that can control and sanction our members, and personally I think a lot this talk of insults and threats are exagerrations.
I don't see them, unless you're being PMed or something, to which all I can say is that's unfortunate, but not our responsibility.

I can quite assure you I've seen them around.  I wouldn't even come close to calling them a majority but there are some with some pretty...extreme and morbid views on Bioware right now.

In the end I think his point was simply, "We're human". In that it can be very hard to respond and engage when you cringe reading some of the posts being thrown at you, insulting you in all manners as a person, and all of this non-stop to every response you make.

As I mentioned earlier I don't think withdrawing is the answer. But it's a tough spot and an unhealthy enviroment to work in.

[alx119]

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

Sigh, it is painfuly true. 

But it also shows the -scale- it has gotten, and that it is indeed a problem. Denying, or undermining, the problems with the endings now wouldn't be too wise. I wish this was adressed in a more official manner. It doesn't hurt to acknowledge one's own problems, it is in fact, the first step to solve them. 

[John Epler]

Xion66 wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

Is it wrong everytime I read a reply of yours I read it in Jacob's voice?


OT: Most fans have been good sports, and a concrete statement without looping around the issue would be nice, some people are boiling up, others are being extremist, but I still feel like we've been given crumbs and are expected to smile all the way into April.

Well, I can't speak for the ME team, but I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding exactly how things move in a company the size of BioWare, especially one that's publicly traded. Not your guys' fault - you have no real need to know what goes on internally, you're not employees. But there are things we can say in public, things we can't, and things we can say, but only when they're approved by the appropriate parties (legal, etc.) Not to mention that, in a situation where there's as much emotion on the line as there is here, you want to be very careful as to what you say because, hey, people are going to react, and you don't want an ill-conceived word sending everyone into a frenzy.

I imagine that, when they are able to say more, they'll say more. I'd counsel patience, although I understand that, when you're passionate about an issue, that's easier said than done. Most of you have been quite civil and polite, and we thank you for that. But vitriol and insults from the vocal minority who -aren't- able to remain civil isn't going to make things go faster. I hate saying 'it'll happen when it happens', but that's largely true with bigger companies. It's not always ideal, but it's a fact of life and business.

[Mesmurae]

Perhaps I don't have a clear grasp on the situation, but I believe that Bioware has at least some inkling of why fans are upset with the ending. Anyone who has even glimpsed these forums would have some idea.

Being uncivil towards them is counterproductive. Sure, there is no shortage of upset folks here, but we can't expect things to change overnight. Only Bioware knows what they have planned for the ending, so it's only fair of us to give them some time to work. This is purely speculation on my part, but I imagine they're scrambling to find an answer to this backlash. Perhaps that's just wishful thinking...

Anyway, we will likely find out more in a less than two weeks at PAX East. I'm going to remain patient and calm until then. That doesn't mean I'm going to simply forget about my goals here, but I can at least make the lives of forum moderators easier by being kind to them. What is going to happen will happen, and no amount of threats or harassment will change that.

As always, Hold the Line.

[stwu]

twizbuck wrote...

We are all biotic gods.

There is a great wind.

You da man.

[Dragoonlordz]

Greer wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Pardon me, the Angry One. no disrespect intended to you, but:

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!

A quick tally of the many threads I've had to lock, and the community members I've had to warn and/or ban, would indicate that your statement is patently untrue. Even some of your own posts will often come across as accusatory and somewhat antagonistic, if not hostile.

And have you ever thought the general anger might be because we are being stonewalled?
Perhaps if we had some actual communication, we would calm down and use the opportunity to, you know, talk?

You can't hide behind a brick wall throwing out buzzwords like "artistic integrity" and "our endings not yours" and expect people to take it and smile forever.
As for the extremists? If they get out of line, ban them. But the fact remains you won't give us a chance.

Quoted for truth

Nonsense, you were not stonewalled. You were told they have something planned which will provide exposition and closure plus to wait till April for further details. They gave you indication of what to expect and a timeline of when more concrete information is available. That is not stonewalling you just lack patience. It has only been a few weeks since release.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mars 2012 - 02:55 .

[The Angry One]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news Stanley, but we dissect your comments because you are intentionally vague. If you always had a plan in the works, it takes one sentence to placate us:

We are very sorry for our mistake and are making an ending DLC that will address almost all of your complaints and we are taking everything found here into account in order to ensure we satisfy as many of you as possible.


But we simply haven't gotten that Stanley. We simply haven't gotten a straight answer to our question. We've been dodged, evaded, ignored, and insulted. We are already pissed about the ending and now have to contend with the full hyperbolic fury of the gaming media.

We've been marginalized and we are rightfully frustrated. Then statements like Dr. Ray's come out and use cryptic language and particular adjectives that we can't help but take issue with. To say that it is our fault that we get no answers is false. We have been largely civil in that we haven't been outright aggressive (passive aggressive sure). We've been sarcastic, we've made parodies, we've made snide insinuations, and we've done plenty of other things that could be called mean spirited but it is all a reaction to YOU.

We wanted a dialog between friends and got a debate with a politician. Why shouldn't we be angry?

Indeed. Being vague tends to infuriate people.
I think a lot of people throw out accusations because they think it will garner a response, it's basic psychology.
I'm not saying it's right to prod BioWare, but people are just that desperate for a straight answer that some will throw out anything in order to get a reaction.

[sistersafetypin]

Ok, Mr. Woo. You win. Since we're only giving constructive feedback, or being "reasonable" when we agree with you. Since you can't respond to a post without being condescending.

I'm done, with this thread. You claim we're unreasonable? We see the same in you.

[TRISTAN WERBE]

my moms powerfull

[CINCTuchanka]

twizbuck wrote...

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

Then look at it in percentages. How many people have been positive in their response, and how many have been negative, in relation to the whole. I understand what you're saying, but some of the things Mr. Woo has said on here are... rather discerning.

At the same time, the most vocal criticism can be the most hurtful.  And even though BioWare is a corporation, I think everyone can tell that ME3 was crafted with great attention and even love I would say.  NO ONE who creates something like this, something which you can tell has a lot of emotion poured into it wants to see it attacked.   And I mean "attacked" not "criticized." Not criticizing BioWare would be a disservice to them and their own artistic growth, attacking them is a disservice to the community. 

Also, any other fan of almost ANYTHING would never get the positive treatment BioWare provides us.  if George R.R. Martin makes an ending you don't like, do you think he would EVER entertain changing it?  The fact that BioWare is doing so is and is engaging with us as much as they have is a privlege, not a right.  I don't like the ending, but the fact that BioWare is listening is a lot more than I would have ever expected.  So that's why I think we should play nice.

[WizenSlinky0]

John Epler wrote...

Well, I can't speak for the ME team, but I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding exactly how things move in a company the size of BioWare, especially one that's publicly traded. Not your guys' fault - you have no real need to know what goes on internally, you're not employees. But there are things we can say in public, things we can't, and things we can say, but only when they're approved by the appropriate parties (legal, etc.) Not to mention that, in a situation where there's as much emotion on the line as there is here, you want to be very careful as to what you say because, hey, people are going to react, and you don't want an ill-conceived word sending everyone into a frenzy.

I imagine that, when they are able to say more, they'll say more. I'd counsel patience, although I understand that, when you're passionate about an issue, that's easier said than done. Most of you have been quite civil and polite, and we thank you for that. But vitriol and insults from the vocal minority who -aren't- able to remain civil isn't going to make things go faster. I hate saying 'it'll happen when it happens', but that's largely true with bigger companies. It's not always ideal, but it's a fact of life and business.

Blah, screw the paperwork.

I'm sure you guys have a bucket list of jokes and comments you want to make. You know you waaaaaant too.

[Divitiacus]

John Epler wrote...

Xion66 wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

Is it wrong everytime I read a reply of yours I read it in Jacob's voice?


OT: Most fans have been good sports, and a concrete statement without looping around the issue would be nice, some people are boiling up, others are being extremist, but I still feel like we've been given crumbs and are expected to smile all the way into April.

Well, I can't speak for the ME team, but I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding exactly how things move in a company the size of BioWare, especially one that's publicly traded. Not your guys' fault - you have no real need to know what goes on internally, you're not employees. But there are things we can say in public, things we can't, and things we can say, but only when they're approved by the appropriate parties (legal, etc.) Not to mention that, in a situation where there's as much emotion on the line as there is here, you want to be very careful as to what you say because, hey, people are going to react, and you don't want an ill-conceived word sending everyone into a frenzy.

I imagine that, when they are able to say more, they'll say more. I'd counsel patience, although I understand that, when you're passionate about an issue, that's easier said than done. Most of you have been quite civil and polite, and we thank you for that. But vitriol and insults from the vocal minority who -aren't- able to remain civil isn't going to make things go faster. I hate saying 'it'll happen when it happens', but that's largely true with bigger companies. It's not always ideal, but it's a fact of life and business.

I like you. That's extremely wise counsel I hope people take to heart. But I hope you also see when people lash out, they're really just lashing out at this system instead of you personally.

Modifié par Divitiacus, 29 mars 2012 - 02:55 .