1334 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthSyphilis59]

Wow. I just can't believe what a PR nightmare bioware keeps making for themselves. Between the twitters and statements by different employees. They don't seem to be in sync. One statement says we are taking feedback into account, someone else says they aren't changing anything, just elaborating and clarifying, another will hint that the ending might have been the ID theory, one says just wait until sometime in April.
I really feel jerked around. I think, besides frustration with the ending, that my biggest problem is that nobody from bioware is giving us a strait answer. What a mess.

[sistersafetypin]

John Epler wrote...

Xion66 wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

Is it wrong everytime I read a reply of yours I read it in Jacob's voice?


OT: Most fans have been good sports, and a concrete statement without looping around the issue would be nice, some people are boiling up, others are being extremist, but I still feel like we've been given crumbs and are expected to smile all the way into April.

Well, I can't speak for the ME team, but I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding exactly how things move in a company the size of BioWare, especially one that's publicly traded. Not your guys' fault - you have no real need to know what goes on internally, you're not employees. But there are things we can say in public, things we can't, and things we can say, but only when they're approved by the appropriate parties (legal, etc.) Not to mention that, in a situation where there's as much emotion on the line as there is here, you want to be very careful as to what you say because, hey, people are going to react, and you don't want an ill-conceived word sending everyone into a frenzy.

I imagine that, when they are able to say more, they'll say more. I'd counsel patience, although I understand that, when you're passionate about an issue, that's easier said than done. Most of you have been quite civil and polite, and we thank you for that. But vitriol and insults from the vocal minority who -aren't- able to remain civil isn't going to make things go faster. I hate saying 'it'll happen when it happens', but that's largely true with bigger companies. It's not always ideal, but it's a fact of life and business.

Thank you for leveling with us

[Dr_Hello]

felipejiraya wrote...

 We're in this month edition of Kotaku's 40 Most Powerful People in Video Games. 

Link: http://kotaku.com/Power-40

NEW: 40. BioWare Fans

Why They're Powerful
March saw the release of BioWare's hotly anticipated Mass Effect 3, the final installment in the sci-fi franchise.

But its release was met with a lot of unhappy fans who felt discontented with the ending. The protests were so widespread and insistent that BioWare eventually ceded to fans and began work on a modified ending.

Fan protests potentially changing the content of a game? Sure, we see patches that address fan complaints all the time, but this feels different. It's brought into question whether video games as an art should be subject to this kind of malleability.

We'll find out just how BioWare is tweaking their game in April, and that will show us just how much impact these fans really have had.

For Christ's sakes, stop saying Games are art and it's unholy to tweak this or that.

Games aren't art. They are a form of art. To say it's art sounds so vague and pretentious. Art just like nature is too big and universal of a term to define 'a' thing. The issue here isn't if 'Game is art and it's unholy to tweak it once done', the issue is: this is a game which could have been a masterpiece but is hindered by the poorly thought-out and execution of its ending. 95% shows BioWare as a master of its medium, last 5% crashes like the Normandy in the end, except it doesn't crash-land on some fairy magical planet, but rather into the disconcerted face of its fans.

Therefore, it is lucky that unlike any other art forms such as movies or books, games can very naturally and semalessly be modified or/and expanded via patches and DLCs without damaging the entire piece's integrity. So BioWare if they have the genious can still indeed turn it into their masterpiece and close the deal with an amazing DLC. That part has yet to be written and to be seen.

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 29 mars 2012 - 03:00 .

[TheOptimist]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

And believe me when I say a lot of us are aware of the problem.  Unfortunately, we can't tell the people who jump down any Bioware throat at the first opportunity to sit in a corner and be good while we have a rational discussion.  And in defense of those people, there are statements running around from the run up to launch of the game that people here absolutely took at face value...and proved to be less than accurate. 

No one with Bioware's history of taking suggestions from it's fanbase should be accused of not listening.  And people have GOT to stop jumping on every twitter comment as the word of god from on high and convincing themselves it means the end of everything.  But people really care about this Mr. Woo.  Maybe that's a bad thing.  But for better or worse, they feel the ending didn't work and they really want to know you're going to fix it.  Indications to the contrary leave them worried they've been listened too...and brushed off.

[The Angry One]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Nonsense, you were not stonewalled. You were told they have something planned which will provde exposition and closure plus to wait till April for further details. They gave you indication of what to expect and a timeline of when more concrete information is available. That is not stonewalling you just lack patience. It has only been a few weeks since release.

We were informed of "closure" in a vague letter that also included phrases like "artistic integrity" which have often been used by journalists arguing against everything we stand for.
It's not a straight answer and we're told to sit here and wait for more. It's frustrating.

If the developers would take an hour or two to chat with us and address our concerns directly, where would be the harm? 
Yes yes, assumption of a civil breakdown. Why must they always assume the worst? At least give us a chance.

[Icinix]

I actually don't think BioWare fans should be on there.

But how about.."Consumers". The thing people seem to forget is that as consumers they have the power of their money. Companies can only survive or die because of their consumers.

[Sohlito]

John Epler wrote...

Xion66 wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

Is it wrong everytime I read a reply of yours I read it in Jacob's voice?


OT: Most fans have been good sports, and a concrete statement without looping around the issue would be nice, some people are boiling up, others are being extremist, but I still feel like we've been given crumbs and are expected to smile all the way into April.

Well, I can't speak for the ME team, but I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding exactly how things move in a company the size of BioWare, especially one that's publicly traded. Not your guys' fault - you have no real need to know what goes on internally, you're not employees. But there are things we can say in public, things we can't, and things we can say, but only when they're approved by the appropriate parties (legal, etc.) Not to mention that, in a situation where there's as much emotion on the line as there is here, you want to be very careful as to what you say because, hey, people are going to react, and you don't want an ill-conceived word sending everyone into a frenzy.

I imagine that, when they are able to say more, they'll say more. I'd counsel patience, although I understand that, when you're passionate about an issue, that's easier said than done. Most of you have been quite civil and polite, and we thank you for that. But vitriol and insults from the vocal minority who -aren't- able to remain civil isn't going to make things go faster. I hate saying 'it'll happen when it happens', but that's largely true with bigger companies. It's not always ideal, but it's a fact of life and business.

That's exactly what I said. Get out of my mind you wizard.

[Aznable Char]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Bedevil123 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

Why did you guys throw out the DA:O conclusion style? that was brilliant! being able to see and direct the force/armies we built through out the game was extremely satisfing and cool. i have yet to see someone complain about the level of choice or the complexity of the ending possibilities. but then in DA2 and ME3 you guys disreguard that system completely and substitute it with a much a more linear and choice free method. why?

yeah if anything I'd say bioware did have a formula that guarenteed everyone would like what they've done. Most of us are upset because they're suddenly veering from it.

This .

Also , let's observe a few laws that have really helped throughout the centuries:

Law 9: Win through your actions never through argument .

If you want them to listen , you have to act , not argue them to death . If people have an entrenched position , they are not going to be hurt by banter and argumentation .

Law 13: When asking for help , appeal to people's self-interests , never to their mercy or gratitude .

If you want BioWare to empathize with you , then make it in their interest to do so because if you ask for mercy or gratitude then that's entitlement . So what are they interested in ? Your money , your support , your good recommendation to others .

Affect these and you will make a greater impact than all the forum threads ever .

Law 36: Disdain things you cannot have: Ignoring them is the best revenge .

If you feel like you're being mocked laughed at or ignored , then don't ask for respect understanding or empathy . Forget talking and do some action . Go play a different game . Go spend your money elsewhere . If you truly want to be treated as a customer who should get a better ending , then ACT LIKE A CUSTOMER . Don't act like BioWare is your uncle who owes you some kind of loyalty . They're not .

[felipejiraya]

John Epler wrote...

Xion66 wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

Is it wrong everytime I read a reply of yours I read it in Jacob's voice?


OT: Most fans have been good sports, and a concrete statement without looping around the issue would be nice, some people are boiling up, others are being extremist, but I still feel like we've been given crumbs and are expected to smile all the way into April.

Well, I can't speak for the ME team, but I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding exactly how things move in a company the size of BioWare, especially one that's publicly traded. Not your guys' fault - you have no real need to know what goes on internally, you're not employees. But there are things we can say in public, things we can't, and things we can say, but only when they're approved by the appropriate parties (legal, etc.) Not to mention that, in a situation where there's as much emotion on the line as there is here, you want to be very careful as to what you say because, hey, people are going to react, and you don't want an ill-conceived word sending everyone into a frenzy.

I imagine that, when they are able to say more, they'll say more. I'd counsel patience, although I understand that, when you're passionate about an issue, that's easier said than done. Most of you have been quite civil and polite, and we thank you for that. But vitriol and insults from the vocal minority who -aren't- able to remain civil isn't going to make things go faster. I hate saying 'it'll happen when it happens', but that's largely true with bigger companies. It's not always ideal, but it's a fact of life and business.

QFT.

[N7L4D]

Let's go Stanley clap clap clap clap clap, let's go Stanley

[withneelandi]

This cannot be said enough.

Thank you to all the bioware staff who have taken the time to speak to us.

Please everyone, lets keep it civil and show respect at the minimum and ideally lets be friendly. Lets rememeber that we are all basically on this forum because we love the work that these people do, even if we don't always love every detail of it.

[Bedevil123]

twizbuck wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Bedevil123 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

Why did you guys throw out the DA:O conclusion style? that was brilliant! being able to see and direct the force/armies we built through out the game was extremely satisfing and cool. i have yet to see someone complain about the level of choice or the complexity of the ending possibilities. but then in DA2 and ME3 you guys disreguard that system completely and substitute it with a much a more linear and choice free method. why?

yeah if anything I'd say bioware did have a formula that guarenteed everyone would like what they've done. Most of us are upset because they're suddenly veering from it.

I miss how DA:O ended... you had a choice to die or live, and everything was put to rest afterward.

great ending to a great game. i know you have it in you bioware, thats why im so upset!

[Stanley Woo]

Paparob wrote...

I don't blame you Stanley, I have no ill will towards you personally perhaps since I'm civil with you might be able to answer a few questions for me. I promise nothing inflammatory or above your pay grade.

1) I understand there is a lot over analyzing on the fans part, I can agree its can get a bit out of hand but why do you feel that fans are speculating on Bioware statements to such a degree?

Because as much as people will threaten to leave the community, to never buy another BioWare product again, to never listen to thing we say again, there is a shred of hope that many in the community will hang onto. Now matter how demoralized people get, no mater how angry and frustrated they may feel, they really, really, really, really, really want to hear that their issues have been "fixed."

At the moment, however, the wounds are too large and too deep, so they scour all of BioWare's comments in an effort to find either those comments that keep their hope alive and/or those that they feel justify their furstration, hatred, or anger.

though it may seem contrary, this is a testament to how much our game has affected our fans and how much they care about our game and the franchise, and we can't (and don't) blame them for that.

2) How much of a dialogue do you have with the developers?

Little.

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

DarthSyphilis59 wrote...

Wow. I just can't believe what a PR nightmare bioware keeps making for themselves. Between the twitters and statements by different employees. They don't seem to be in sync. One statement says we are taking feedback into account, someone else says they aren't changing anything, just elaborating and clarifying, another will hint that the ending might have been the ID theory, one says just wait until sometime in April.
I really feel jerked around. I think, besides frustration with the ending, that my biggest problem is that nobody from bioware is giving us a strait answer. What a mess.

Taking feedback in to account does not mean the endings are going to change, in no way are those two statements contradictory. 

[MetalCargo999]

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...

my moms powerfull

No one can argue this point.

[Diablos2525]

John Epler wrote...

Xion66 wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

Is it wrong everytime I read a reply of yours I read it in Jacob's voice?


OT: Most fans have been good sports, and a concrete statement without looping around the issue would be nice, some people are boiling up, others are being extremist, but I still feel like we've been given crumbs and are expected to smile all the way into April.

Well, I can't speak for the ME team, but I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding exactly how things move in a company the size of BioWare, especially one that's publicly traded. Not your guys' fault - you have no real need to know what goes on internally, you're not employees. But there are things we can say in public, things we can't, and things we can say, but only when they're approved by the appropriate parties (legal, etc.) Not to mention that, in a situation where there's as much emotion on the line as there is here, you want to be very careful as to what you say because, hey, people are going to react, and you don't want an ill-conceived word sending everyone into a frenzy.

I imagine that, when they are able to say more, they'll say more. I'd counsel patience, although I understand that, when you're passionate about an issue, that's easier said than done. Most of you have been quite civil and polite, and we thank you for that. But vitriol and insults from the vocal minority who -aren't- able to remain civil isn't going to make things go faster. I hate saying 'it'll happen when it happens', but that's largely true with bigger companies. It's not always ideal, but it's a fact of life and business.

Thank you for saying this. I knew this was the case, it's just the way big buisness works these days. Honestly I hate all this financial mumbo jumbo and stocks and publicly traded companies and all this junk which seperates the company from it's fans.

I just wanted to let you guys know I hated the ending but I loved the game, and I appreciate all the long hours and hard work you guys put into it. I know that if you could be more informative you would. Thank you!

I have one request, I just wish you guys would post more in these forums even if it doesn't deal with Mass Effect 3's ending. Just so we know more about what's going on in general, or your opinions on things.

[Mesmurae]

Personally, I would like to thank the moderators for chipping in. It means a lot to know that you're still active and watchful among us. I also thank you for your (considerable) patience in dealing with the less civil members of BSN.

Enjoy the cupcakes.

[Karrie788]

John Epler wrote...

Xion66 wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

Is it wrong everytime I read a reply of yours I read it in Jacob's voice?


OT: Most fans have been good sports, and a concrete statement without looping around the issue would be nice, some people are boiling up, others are being extremist, but I still feel like we've been given crumbs and are expected to smile all the way into April.

Well, I can't speak for the ME team, but I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding exactly how things move in a company the size of BioWare, especially one that's publicly traded. Not your guys' fault - you have no real need to know what goes on internally, you're not employees. But there are things we can say in public, things we can't, and things we can say, but only when they're approved by the appropriate parties (legal, etc.) Not to mention that, in a situation where there's as much emotion on the line as there is here, you want to be very careful as to what you say because, hey, people are going to react, and you don't want an ill-conceived word sending everyone into a frenzy.

I imagine that, when they are able to say more, they'll say more. I'd counsel patience, although I understand that, when you're passionate about an issue, that's easier said than done. Most of you have been quite civil and polite, and we thank you for that. But vitriol and insults from the vocal minority who -aren't- able to remain civil isn't going to make things go faster. I hate saying 'it'll happen when it happens', but that's largely true with bigger companies. It's not always ideal, but it's a fact of life and business.

Thank you.

[TRISTAN WERBE]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...

my moms powerfull

No one can argue this point.

Shes beat my ass

[Dark_Caduceus]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...

my moms powerfull

No one can argue this point.

[Tovanus]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Tovanus wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Just to let everyone know; This amount of mass childish behaviour and angry ranting is exactly why they haven't engaged you yet. Stanley came down to show that the team respects all of our thoughts, and you jumped down his throat.

This is how I know you're all still children. You want respect? Show respect.

Oh please. Bioware "hasn't engaged" people because they're acting childish? They're not engaging because they botched the thing to an almost irretrievable degree, and they're not sure how to respond to a tidal wave of backlash. Hiding behind the "some people on the forums aren't completely civil" defense is a pretty strong admission that they don't know what they're doing. A company that wants to engage with civil fans, that uses internet forums, can ALWAYS find a civil thread to do so. They can make a post that's locked for comments in response to general sentiments seen on the forum. We've gotten a limited amount of that here already. The reality is that if people weren't jumping down Bioware's throats every day to this degree, nothing - absolutely nothing - would have even the slightest hope of getting done.  Trying to equate fan anger (which often manifests in clever and funny ways on these forums) with fan "childishness" comes across as if you have some deep need to be viewed as, "one of the adults in the room." 

The reality is that the ending is terrible. Go read one of the articles that dissects the ending in detail (i.e. an article like the California Literary Review, or the article constantly linked analogizing it to Lord of the Rings), or go watch one of the Youtube videos treating it in great detail (there's a great new one by someone paying homage to Redlettermedia's reviews of the SW trilogy in their review of ME 3's ending). Avoid articles that briefly touch on a theme and don't treat the end in brutal detail. There is no comment, no defense, no action on these forums any individual fan can take that will change the massive fan reaction to the endings. The most civil thread in the world won't make Bioware engage more. The most vitriolic angry bitter mess of a thread won't make them ignore the situation out of distaste for "childish" fans. At the end of the day, they'll either engage meaningfully with the mass anger by making a meaningful change, or they'll ignore it and lose a huge portion of their fanbase that will just seek out other companies.

In all fair honesty, we could have had a civil discussion with Stanley here, but look how it turned out. The thread your posting in negates your post.

It doesn't negate an ounce of my post. I'm not even sure how my post could be twisted in such a way that it could be negated by this thread. The gist of my post is that these forums present a tidal wave of anger, and that that tidal wave is the only reason that anything (even something ultimately sub-par) might get done on the ending. There is no thread on this forum that a Bioware employee could enter, while defending the ending, without expecting a mountain of anger heaped their way. And that's a good thing, because that environment is the natural product of the fans massive discontent, and it's the only reason anything might get done.

The developers would have to be living under a rock to ignore the countless posts, or several articles or video commentaries documenting what makes the endings terrible. Not that they'd read or watch everyone, but merely that it's hard to fathom them not checking it out for themselves. The purpose of these forums is to keep consumer feedback in easily accessible view, and to ocassionally allow for announcements by the company that everyone can see. Besides all that, moderators here do keep things civil. That's what they do, they moderate. If your definition of "civil" is that no one ever gets angry, engages in sarcasm or tells someone they're foolishly defending something that's objectively indefensible, then you shouldn't be on any internet forum.

[panamakira]

Yeah so much for "vocal minority". LOL. The point is we're still holding the line. Even if we don't get anything in the end, the fact everybody got together, one way or another to let BioWare know about how disappointed we were with the ending is might awesome.

Keep Holding the Line!

Edit:
Also whatever happened to being civil to devs? I don't care how dissappointed or angry I'm at the ending there's no need to be rude. You're just not helping get the point across. Calm down people.

Modifié par panamakira, 29 mars 2012 - 03:01 .

[John Epler]

twizbuck wrote...

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

Then look at it in percentages. How many people have been positive in their response, and how many have been negative, in relation to the whole. I understand what you're saying, but some of the things Mr. Woo has said on here are... rather discerning.

And that's fair, but at the same time - we're human. When you have fifteen, or twenty, or twenty five people sending you incredibly insulting PMs and essentially telling you that you need to either A) be fired or come to physical harm, it can colour your opinion a bit. I'd like to say we all have thick skins and can take that sort of abuse, but that'd be untrue. We all deal with it differently, of course, but at the end of the day we're still human. Particularly as Stan does most of his interactions with the community outside of his work hours because he's really passionate about the community and is one of your greatest advocates within the company - he's not being paid when he's on these forums.

I spent enough time on the DA2 forums post-release to know where he's coming from. Even if, intellectually, you know that they're only a small percentage, it still hurts, and it can still be rather aggravating.

[Taboo]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

TRISTAN WERBE wrote...

my moms powerfull

No one can argue this point.

+9000