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[felipejiraya]

 We're in this month edition of Kotaku's 40 Most Powerful People in Video Games. 

Link: http://kotaku.com/Power-40

NEW: 40. BioWare Fans

Why They're Powerful
March saw the release of BioWare's hotly anticipated Mass Effect 3, the final installment in the sci-fi franchise.

But its release was met with a lot of unhappy fans who felt discontented with the ending. The protests were so widespread and insistent that BioWare eventually ceded to fans and began work on a modified ending.

Fan protests potentially changing the content of a game? Sure, we see patches that address fan complaints all the time, but this feels different. It's brought into question whether video games as an art should be subject to this kind of malleability.

We'll find out just how BioWare is tweaking their game in April, and that will show us just how much impact these fans really have had.

Modifié par felipejiraya, 29 mars 2012 - 01:08 .

[Stanley Woo]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bioware has proven themselves to listen to fans with regards to Mass Effect. We see it in the changes they made to the second game, and to the third, and in the DLC they put out for Mass Effect 2. I think they would have listened to fan criticism about the ending no matter what form it came in.

Yup, we would have, just as we've done for the last (at least) 10 years.

[Stanley Woo]

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

[Stanley Woo]

Snakedude4life wrote...

But who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems?

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

(I still would like to hear how you guys missed that)

I would be wary of making such assumptions. Since you aren't on the development team, you can't really know if it was missed, what the issues invovled are, or how or why it appears in the final game. This is a common assumption when players find bugs in the game, but few bugs are well and truly "missed," as you define it.

[Stanley Woo]

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Why is it so hard for you to stick to a successful formula? Is it a sort of contest? I don't get it.

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

[Stanley Woo]

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

[Stanley Woo]

The Angry One wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

Have you guys considered maybe they'll talk to us more if we don't tear them apart every time they try to talk to us? Just going out on a limb...they don't like to be personally and professionally attacked any more than you do. Keep it civil folks.

All of us have been civil, even in the face of remarks which I think uncalled for and oversimplifications of our argument.
If the actualy developers would engage us they would find us respectful but firm in our positions.

Pardon me, the Angry One. no disrespect intended to you, but:

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!

A quick tally of the many threads I've had to lock, and the community members I've had to warn and/or ban, would indicate that your statement is patently untrue. Even some of your own posts will often come across as accusatory and somewhat antagonistic, if not hostile.

[Stanley Woo]

mokponobi wrote...

Thanks Mr Woo, for engaging the fans in a discussion for a bit. I appreciate hearing from you guys even if I disagree with what is said.

Hopefully, you can pick out the posts that are polite and respectful and continue to be patient with the hot heads.

Cheers.

You're welcome. I wouldn't be here if I didn't love our community like I do. And despite what people say, we do listen and we can pick out the gems amid the chaff. We have the technology.

We don't expect people to like us or agree with us all the time. But we would prefer it if people freaked out a little less.

[John Epler]

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

[John Epler]

Xion66 wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

Is it wrong everytime I read a reply of yours I read it in Jacob's voice?


OT: Most fans have been good sports, and a concrete statement without looping around the issue would be nice, some people are boiling up, others are being extremist, but I still feel like we've been given crumbs and are expected to smile all the way into April.

Well, I can't speak for the ME team, but I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding exactly how things move in a company the size of BioWare, especially one that's publicly traded. Not your guys' fault - you have no real need to know what goes on internally, you're not employees. But there are things we can say in public, things we can't, and things we can say, but only when they're approved by the appropriate parties (legal, etc.) Not to mention that, in a situation where there's as much emotion on the line as there is here, you want to be very careful as to what you say because, hey, people are going to react, and you don't want an ill-conceived word sending everyone into a frenzy.

I imagine that, when they are able to say more, they'll say more. I'd counsel patience, although I understand that, when you're passionate about an issue, that's easier said than done. Most of you have been quite civil and polite, and we thank you for that. But vitriol and insults from the vocal minority who -aren't- able to remain civil isn't going to make things go faster. I hate saying 'it'll happen when it happens', but that's largely true with bigger companies. It's not always ideal, but it's a fact of life and business.

[Stanley Woo]

Paparob wrote...

I don't blame you Stanley, I have no ill will towards you personally perhaps since I'm civil with you might be able to answer a few questions for me. I promise nothing inflammatory or above your pay grade.

1) I understand there is a lot over analyzing on the fans part, I can agree its can get a bit out of hand but why do you feel that fans are speculating on Bioware statements to such a degree?

Because as much as people will threaten to leave the community, to never buy another BioWare product again, to never listen to thing we say again, there is a shred of hope that many in the community will hang onto. Now matter how demoralized people get, no mater how angry and frustrated they may feel, they really, really, really, really, really want to hear that their issues have been "fixed."

At the moment, however, the wounds are too large and too deep, so they scour all of BioWare's comments in an effort to find either those comments that keep their hope alive and/or those that they feel justify their furstration, hatred, or anger.

though it may seem contrary, this is a testament to how much our game has affected our fans and how much they care about our game and the franchise, and we can't (and don't) blame them for that.

2) How much of a dialogue do you have with the developers?

Little.

[John Epler]

twizbuck wrote...

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

Then look at it in percentages. How many people have been positive in their response, and how many have been negative, in relation to the whole. I understand what you're saying, but some of the things Mr. Woo has said on here are... rather discerning.

And that's fair, but at the same time - we're human. When you have fifteen, or twenty, or twenty five people sending you incredibly insulting PMs and essentially telling you that you need to either A) be fired or come to physical harm, it can colour your opinion a bit. I'd like to say we all have thick skins and can take that sort of abuse, but that'd be untrue. We all deal with it differently, of course, but at the end of the day we're still human. Particularly as Stan does most of his interactions with the community outside of his work hours because he's really passionate about the community and is one of your greatest advocates within the company - he's not being paid when he's on these forums.

I spent enough time on the DA2 forums post-release to know where he's coming from. Even if, intellectually, you know that they're only a small percentage, it still hurts, and it can still be rather aggravating.

[Stanley Woo]

Folks, please note that if the entirety of your post is a meme image or "hold the line," it will be considered spam and will be removed. Thank you.

[John Epler]

JMA22TB wrote...

Maybe it's an outsider opinion but I find that it might say something about the product when that kind of anger is being thrown at anybody in the company. I mean telling people they should be fired or threatening them are serious emotive responses right?

Why is that happening? Is that the community's fault, the game's, or both? I find that the more I look at the sheer volume of confusion, hurt, disappointment, anger, and the desire to express them, the more it seems like something's wrong with the PRODUCT not the people.

I mean there is a huge number of people hoping that the ending never really happened! Is that good? I mean honestly?

Regardless of how you feel about the ending or the product, no, there's never an excuse for personal insults and threats. Sorry, but this isn't something I feel is even up for debate. At the end of the day, there's no place for that kind of behaviour, and I think that most people would draw the line at making threats and attacking people on a personal level.

[Stanley Woo]

Paparob wrote...

Thanks for responding to my questions Stanley, I appreciate it. Our of curosity, and I mean nothing by this question but I was wondering did you play Mass Effect 3 yourself?

I was moved to the franchise a couple of weeks ago and have been playing various aspects of it every day since. Very impressive.

[Stanley Woo]

Dreogan wrote...

Shut up, you. Don't bring that there logic into this. This is the internet! We don't take none too kindly to folks like you!

Okay, i've heard this sentiment before, but this particular presentation of it made me chuckle. Thanks, Dreogan.

[John Epler]

Exeider wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...
Mr.Woo is not the person to say this to, he has little to nothing to do with the development of ME3.

Then WHY are we even talking to him? we need to pass the gatekeeper/PR man and talk with someone who can acutally make decisions.

where is the game industry equivelent of "I want to speak to the manager."

-AE

ps. "there is a fly in my ending, i require a new one."

Stan talks to you because Stan has a passion and love of our community that's equal parts his good nature and his longstanding association with the company. That's not to say that other developers don't also love the community, but he's willing to talk with you even when there's not much of substance anyone can say at the moment, because he likes to make sure that our community is a constructive and healthy place where people can go to discuss games and whatever else is on their mind.

I would wager that the 'gatekeepers', as you put it, are well aware of what the community has said thus far. Again, I'm not a member of the ME team, so I can't talk to specifics, but it is not as easy as saying 'well, people want Y, let's tell them what we're doing!'. I know it can be frustrating, but once again I counsel patience.

[John Epler]

I don't think name calling and personal attacks help anyone's case, regardless of who they are and who they're referring to. That's as much of a statement as you'll get from me on any articles related to any of this, sorry. It's not really my place - I'm not on the ME team. Now, if you want my opinion on DA related stuff... well, I can't say much there, either. Whoops.

[Stanley Woo]

Paparob wrote...

I was actually building towards that. Well I hope you don't mind me asking but did you? Just as one fan to another, I'm curious to see if you picked the game up recently or if you've been following the series for a while.

Edit: Off topic slightly but how is that a hard question? lol Also feel free to jump in with questions if you have them, its not like I'm the designated "Questioner of Stanley Woo" 

I have not played the series from start to finish, though I worked on Mass effect 2.

[John Epler]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Wasn't this originally about a congratulatory thread about our efforts and now it's devolved into a thread about how bad we are? Due in no small part to the timely intervention of BW's PR team.

Probably just a coincidence.

Well, there's that interpretation, or there's the interpretation that, whatever one's opinion on the ending, we can all agree that personal insults and attacks have no place in online discourse. Personally, I'm going with the latter - I'm far more likely to engage with someone who disagrees with me but is polite than someone who agrees with me but is hostile and vulgar. It's somewhat fashionable to quote the Greater Internet.. well, let's say Crapwad Theory, but I don't think that it excuses anything. And, hey, most of the people in the Retake movement? They're good people. They're passionate, sure, and they're unhappy about a particular aspect of ME3, but they're civil and polite. Personally, I'd rather see more of that on the forums.

[Stanley Woo]

commander_shepard wrote...
I wouldn't mind if you flew me to Edmonton and showed me what you guys are working on to assuage me.

If you flew up here on your own dime and showed up at the office, I would consent to buy you a tasty beverage to assuage you, but that's about it.

[Stanley Woo]

Bantz wrote...

agreed, wish we'd had this kind of back and forth talks before, probably would have saved these poor guys some of those hatefilled PM"s.

We have. john Epler and I have had several of these conversations over the last few weeks. People just tend to forget about them after a couple of days and go back to accusing us of not listening. And we have a whole bunch of community members who never read the threads we've participated in.

[John Epler]

alx119 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

I don't think name calling and personal attacks help anyone's case, regardless of who they are and who they're referring to. That's as much of a statement as you'll get from me on any articles related to any of this, sorry. It's not really my place - I'm not on the ME team. Now, if you want my opinion on DA related stuff... well, I can't say much there, either. Whoops.

Why aren't you on the ME team? You are a pretty cool guy to talk with. 

I asked to stay on the Dragon Age team when it came time to staff out ME3. Why? Partially because I wanted to avoid crunch - it would've been three years straight where I spent half of it working 12-14 hour days as I bounced between projects. And, partially, because I wanted to play ME3 without having worked on it. It took a year before I could play ME2, due to how much time I spent on that project. Given that ME1 was one of my favourite games (I never worked on it), I wanted to enjoy ME3 the same way.

There are other professional development aspects, but they're of interest to no one but myself. Still, I enjoyed the time I spent on ME2.

[Stanley Woo]

Bedevil123 wrote...

really? just out of simple curiosity what did you do work on/in mass effect 2?

EDIT: thank you btw! ME2 was a great game, and your talking to us here on the forums is a very nice sight for sore eyes

Plot and story analysis, cinematics testing, razzing John Epler.

[John Epler]

withneelandi wrote...

John Epler wrote...

I don't think name calling and personal attacks help anyone's case, regardless of who they are and who they're referring to. That's as much of a statement as you'll get from me on any articles related to any of this, sorry. It's not really my place - I'm not on the ME team. Now, if you want my opinion on DA related stuff... well, I can't say much there, either. Whoops.

You literally had me going for a second.......

I was about to ask you to comment on the comedy "mass effect is the same universe as dragon age" theory.

I'm telling you, Corpheus was the trapped spirit of a Reaper and that thing they reffered to under Val Royeux is a crashed long burried Reaper.







(I'm kidding, please don't think i'm a looney)

I continue to argue for an easter egg in a DA game where you come across a 'mysterious broken machine' that's actually the remains of one of the probes from ME2. Scanning a populated planet always made me envision an Armageddon-type scenario where death rained down from the sky while Shepard calmly watched his resource bar.