1334 réponses à ce sujet

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Sesshaku wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

I assure you, i dare you to say on this forums "We will change the ending and give you what we orginally promised".

Im pretty sure 90% will say FINALLY!! awesome, and thanks you so much.

It's not that hard isn't it?.

Mr.Woo is not the person to say this to, he has little to nothing to do with the development of ME3.

Modifié par GME_ThorianCreeper, 29 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[Sohlito]

Faerlyte wrote...

Sohlito wrote...

Faerlyte wrote...

Sohlito wrote...

I wonder if I'll get in trouble for quoting my own response to a quote, just so it can get read...

Amazing how often that happens, especially if you're someone who doesn't post often and therefore nobody recognizes.

There are preferentials for posts? Or posters in this case.

I am a lurker/observor. It is my known place in life to occasionally make an appearance and occasionally be heard when I do. Not always, but sometimes.

The problem with this topic is it's like beating your head against a wall. You're really not making any progress no matter what you say.

A point I can easily concede to, and it's understandable with tensions running as high as they have been. I suppose thats the problem with trying to play mediator.

[Exeider]

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Because as much as people will threaten to leave the community, to never buy another BioWare product again, to never listen to thing we say again, there is a shred of hope that many in the community will hang onto. Now matter how demoralized people get, no mater how angry and frustrated they may feel, they really, really, really, really, really want to hear that their issues have been "fixed."

Believe me...that shred of hope we're hanging on to gets smaller every day, or with every new statement.

notice how that statement pretty much just reads that they are operating on a numbers game. How many leave vs, How many stay. as long as the number on the right stays higher then the number on the left, they have no reason to listen because they can just take the "we'll just get more customers" approach.

-AE

[JMA22TB]

John Epler wrote...

twizbuck wrote...

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

Then look at it in percentages. How many people have been positive in their response, and how many have been negative, in relation to the whole. I understand what you're saying, but some of the things Mr. Woo has said on here are... rather discerning.

And that's fair, but at the same time - we're human. When you have fifteen, or twenty, or twenty five people sending you incredibly insulting PMs and essentially telling you that you need to either A) be fired or come to physical harm, it can colour your opinion a bit. I'd like to say we all have thick skins and can take that sort of abuse, but that'd be untrue. We all deal with it differently, of course, but at the end of the day we're still human. Particularly as Stan does most of his interactions with the community outside of his work hours because he's really passionate about the community and is one of your greatest advocates within the company - he's not being paid when he's on these forums.

I spent enough time on the DA2 forums post-release to know where he's coming from. Even if, intellectually, you know that they're only a small percentage, it still hurts, and it can still be rather aggravating.

Maybe it's an outsider opinion but I find that it might say something about the product when that kind of anger is being thrown at anybody in the company. I mean telling people they should be fired or threatening them are serious emotive responses right?

Why is that happening? Is that the community's fault, the game's, or both? I find that the more I look at the sheer volume of confusion, hurt, disappointment, anger, and the desire to express them, the more it seems like something's wrong with the PRODUCT not the people.

I mean there is a huge number of people hoping that the ending never really happened! Is that good? I mean honestly?

[Aznable Char]

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Because as much as people will threaten to leave the community, to never buy another BioWare product again, to never listen to thing we say again, there is a shred of hope that many in the community will hang onto. Now matter how demoralized people get, no mater how angry and frustrated they may feel, they really, really, really, really, really want to hear that their issues have been "fixed."

Believe me...that shred of hope we're hanging on to gets smaller every day, or with every new statement.

I think that's one thing that allows BioWare to stay silent . The very fact that they are (rightfully) guessing that most people here are holding back the trigger on their particular loyalty to BioWare . I am one of those people . I have told all my friends that I spoke to about the ending (all of them deciding not to buy any BioWare products) that I'll let them know if BioWare was to change their mind . Most are hopeful that they will change their mind and that would mean spending money on them is justified . I am also holding out for that hope .

Personally I have no problem waiting for April because there aren't going to be any BioWare titles coming out soon anyway and all of my friends have already refused to buy BioWare . Right now BioWare has reached the bottom point for me already and that's why I don't bother arguing with them on this forum or asking them to show us anything .

If my actions are being emulated around the world , then they will reach out to me instead of me straining my neck to be heard by them .

I can only encourage you that my form of peaceful protest while explaining to them what I didn't like about the ending is not only the most effective means of getting them to listen , but it also means they come to me about it instead of me begging like I'm "entitled" . It also allows me to remain peaceful about the whole thing because BioWare cannot make me any more angry or disappointed with them right now . I'm already getting people not to buy their products and not buying any myself . There is nothing more they can do to make it any worse with relation to me . So in that case no amount of their stonewalling or their (as some people might perceive) condescension will bother me . I've ended the relationship , but I have given them my conditions for how to repair that .

The ball is in their court . So I can relax , play some Crusader Kings II , or League of Legends , or buy Diablo III , or spend my money elsewhere until they decide to ask me for more dough . And when they do , and they have done nothing to repair this bad product , then I , too , can have the satisfaction of saying "BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

Modifié par Aznable Char, 29 mars 2012 - 03:17 .

[cutegigi]

JeosDinas wrote...

Divitiacus wrote...
Hold on a second, supply and demand isn't entitlement, it's the law of the market. *electric slide*

I find your grasp on economics very loose. Just because there is a demand, it doesn't neccessarily have to be supplied. 

actually... that kind of the point of "Free market"
consumer are free to make any demand and supplier are free to supply whatever they want.
when supply and demand meet, both are happy...  when its not... then.......

[Dr_Hello]

Nothing to report

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 29 mars 2012 - 03:15 .

[Straw_foot]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Folks, please note that if the entirety of your post is a meme image or "hold the line," it will be considered spam and will be removed. Thank you.

As I've said before, I appreciate you bein here huntin the trolls. Delete their threads with fire.

[Greer]

 

Modifié par Greer, 29 mars 2012 - 03:20 .

[John Epler]

JMA22TB wrote...

Maybe it's an outsider opinion but I find that it might say something about the product when that kind of anger is being thrown at anybody in the company. I mean telling people they should be fired or threatening them are serious emotive responses right?

Why is that happening? Is that the community's fault, the game's, or both? I find that the more I look at the sheer volume of confusion, hurt, disappointment, anger, and the desire to express them, the more it seems like something's wrong with the PRODUCT not the people.

I mean there is a huge number of people hoping that the ending never really happened! Is that good? I mean honestly?

Regardless of how you feel about the ending or the product, no, there's never an excuse for personal insults and threats. Sorry, but this isn't something I feel is even up for debate. At the end of the day, there's no place for that kind of behaviour, and I think that most people would draw the line at making threats and attacking people on a personal level.

[Paparob]

Thanks for responding to my questions Stanley, I appreciate it. Our of curosity, and I mean nothing by this question but I was wondering did you play Mass Effect 3 yourself?

Modifié par Paparob, 29 mars 2012 - 03:16 .

[Exeider]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...
Mr.Woo is not the person to say this to, he has little to nothing to do with the development of ME3.

Then WHY are we even talking to him? we need to pass the gatekeeper/PR man and talk with someone who can acutally make decisions.

where is the game industry equivelent of "I want to speak to the manager."

-AE

ps. "there is a fly in my ending, i require a new one."

Modifié par Exeider, 29 mars 2012 - 03:16 .

[ticklefist]

Opsrbest wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What you have to understand about the threatening PMs is most of us are completely oblivious to that.
I'm sure from your perspectives it must appear like the enemy's at the gates, but over here we're just trying to make our points known.

I don't expect any leniency for people who'd be so crass as to attack BioWare employees, but we are not them.

But you will get lumped in with them. I'm trying to remember the adage .... it has something to do with association ......

Well that's a two way street. 

[QuantumSheep13]

If you ask me, Bioware's digging its own grave.

Modifié par QuantumSheep13, 29 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[Crocmon]

John Epler wrote...

And that's fair, but at the same time - we're human. When you have fifteen, or twenty, or twenty five people sending you incredibly insulting PMs and essentially telling you that you need to either A) be fired or come to physical harm, it can colour your opinion a bit. I'd like to say we all have thick skins and can take that sort of abuse, but that'd be untrue. We all deal with it differently, of course, but at the end of the day we're still human. Particularly as Stan does most of his interactions with the community outside of his work hours because he's really passionate about the community and is one of your greatest advocates within the company - he's not being paid when he's on these forums.

I spent enough time on the DA2 forums post-release to know where he's coming from. Even if, intellectually, you know that they're only a small percentage, it still hurts, and it can still be rather aggravating.

Mr. Epler, I respect you and Mr. Woo's attempts to at least discuss things with us. Now, before someone jumps down my throat for brown-nosing, I only need to mention two words.

Positive Reinforcement.

If the other staff members aren't coming to talk to us for the reasons these guys claim, don't you think it would render more dialogue with all of the team if we treated these two gentlemen properly and told them what we want in a calm, positive and thoughtful manner? If we do that, then the hostile minority will be ruled as such and EA/Bioware wouldn't be talking off-the-record in frustration about it. Now, I'm not saying they are paying these publications to bad-mouth us, but perhaps maybe some news-source is talking to some staff member. News-source hears that staff member is being stressed by the community (assuming that they occasionally just have friendly bull-sessions). Seeing a great opportunity to get hits for the site, the news-source then bad-mouths those stressing the developer. News-source gets hits, staff member gets more stress, and the news-source just offers condolences at a later date.

Sure, a few game-news-sources are going completely off-the-rails here and spouting out things that they may or may not have actual experience with (I assume at times Adam Sessler may not have played the ending and is just being sensational in his dialogue for ratings sometimes), but can you blame them? Every time a news article criticizes the Retakers they get tons of hits, tons of exposure via word-of-mouth (which leads to more hits), and just overall raw reinforcement.

Simple discussion here works. We openly avoid stressing the few who do talk to us, they'll realize we're not all rabid dogs baying for blood, and thus be able to convince the PR guys we're not all ****s.

I respect Bioware for all of their work, and while I strongly disagree with the decisions that led to the endings, I'm perfectly open to tell them why. I might come off a bit confrontational at times, but it isn't out of irrational rage over the endings just my dissatisfaction with them, and would gladly rectify and apologize should I ever come across as outrageous.

[Torrible]

Straw_foot wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Folks, please note that if the entirety of your post is a meme image or "hold the line," it will be considered spam and will be removed. Thank you.

As I've said before, I appreciate you bein here huntin the trolls. Delete their threads with fire.

[The Angry One]

ticklefist wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What you have to understand about the threatening PMs is most of us are completely oblivious to that.
I'm sure from your perspectives it must appear like the enemy's at the gates, but over here we're just trying to make our points known.

I don't expect any leniency for people who'd be so crass as to attack BioWare employees, but we are not them.

But you will get lumped in with them. I'm trying to remember the adage .... it has something to do with association ......

Well that's a two way street. 

Also, having the same opinion as someone does not "associate" us with them no more than, say, voting for the same political leader associates me with someone who turns out to be a violent criminal.
Yes yes not a great analogy, but you get the point.

[Karrie788]

John Epler wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Maybe it's an outsider opinion but I find that it might say something about the product when that kind of anger is being thrown at anybody in the company. I mean telling people they should be fired or threatening them are serious emotive responses right?

Why is that happening? Is that the community's fault, the game's, or both? I find that the more I look at the sheer volume of confusion, hurt, disappointment, anger, and the desire to express them, the more it seems like something's wrong with the PRODUCT not the people.

I mean there is a huge number of people hoping that the ending never really happened! Is that good? I mean honestly?

Regardless of how you feel about the ending or the product, no, there's never an excuse for personal insults and threats. Sorry, but this isn't something I feel is even up for debate. At the end of the day, there's no place for that kind of behaviour, and I think that most people would draw the line at making threats and attacking people on a personal level.

Agreed. If we feel passionate enough to make personal threats we shouldn't expect Bioware, who are still human beings, to just take it like robots and answer our requests with a smile.
There's no good reason to ask for someone to be fired, period.

That being said, I still hate the endings.

[Dreogan]

Crocmon wrote...

John Epler wrote...

And that's fair, but at the same time - we're human. When you have fifteen, or twenty, or twenty five people sending you incredibly insulting PMs and essentially telling you that you need to either A) be fired or come to physical harm, it can colour your opinion a bit. I'd like to say we all have thick skins and can take that sort of abuse, but that'd be untrue. We all deal with it differently, of course, but at the end of the day we're still human. Particularly as Stan does most of his interactions with the community outside of his work hours because he's really passionate about the community and is one of your greatest advocates within the company - he's not being paid when he's on these forums.

I spent enough time on the DA2 forums post-release to know where he's coming from. Even if, intellectually, you know that they're only a small percentage, it still hurts, and it can still be rather aggravating.

Mr. Epler, I respect you and Mr. Woo's attempts to at least discuss things with us. Now, before someone jumps down my throat for brown-nosing, I only need to mention two words.

Positive Reinforcement.

If the other staff members aren't coming to talk to us for the reasons these guys claim, don't you think it would render more dialogue with all of the team if we treated these two gentlemen properly and told them what we want in a calm, positive and thoughtful manner? If we do that, then the hostile minority will be ruled as such and EA/Bioware wouldn't be talking off-the-record in frustration about it. Now, I'm not saying they are paying these publications to bad-mouth us, but perhaps maybe some news-source is talking to some staff member. News-source hears that staff member is being stressed by the community (assuming that they occasionally just have friendly bull-sessions). Seeing a great opportunity to get hits for the site, the news-source then bad-mouths those stressing the developer. News-source gets hits, staff member gets more stress, and the news-source just offers condolences at a later date.

Sure, a few game-news-sources are going completely off-the-rails here and spouting out things that they may or may not have actual experience with (I assume at times Adam Sessler may not have played the ending and is just being sensational in his dialogue for ratings sometimes), but can you blame them? Every time a news article criticizes the Retakers they get tons of hits, tons of exposure via word-of-mouth (which leads to more hits), and just overall raw reinforcement.

Simple discussion here works. We openly avoid stressing the few who do talk to us, they'll realize we're not all rabid dogs baying for blood, and thus be able to convince the PR guys we're not all ****s.

I respect Bioware for all of their work, and while I strongly disagree with the decisions that led to the endings, I'm perfectly open to tell them why. I might come off a bit confrontational at times, but it isn't out of irrational rage over the endings just my dissatisfaction with them, and would gladly rectify and apologize should I ever come across as outrageous.

Shut up, you. Don't bring that there logic into this. This is the internet! We don't take none too kindly to folks like you!

[Diablos2525]

John Epler wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Maybe it's an outsider opinion but I find that it might say something about the product when that kind of anger is being thrown at anybody in the company. I mean telling people they should be fired or threatening them are serious emotive responses right?

Why is that happening? Is that the community's fault, the game's, or both? I find that the more I look at the sheer volume of confusion, hurt, disappointment, anger, and the desire to express them, the more it seems like something's wrong with the PRODUCT not the people.

I mean there is a huge number of people hoping that the ending never really happened! Is that good? I mean honestly?

Regardless of how you feel about the ending or the product, no, there's never an excuse for personal insults and threats. Sorry, but this isn't something I feel is even up for debate. At the end of the day, there's no place for that kind of behaviour, and I think that most people would draw the line at making threats and attacking people on a personal level.

People need to step back, take a breath and realize that we got promised some answers in April. We need to calm down and wait to see what those answers are.

Also no one deserves to be verbally attacked, it's just soul crushing.

Modifié par Diablos2525, 29 mars 2012 - 03:19 .

[MetalCargo999]

Exeider wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...
Mr.Woo is not the person to say this to, he has little to nothing to do with the development of ME3.

Then WHY are we even talking to him? we need to pass the gatekeeper/PR man and talk with someone who can acutally make decisions.

where is the game industry equivelent of "I want to speak to the manager."

-AE

ps. "there is a fly in my ending, i require a new one."

Then don't talk to him.  Your decision.

[alx119]

John Epler wrote...



Regardless of how you feel about the ending or the product, no, there's never an excuse for personal insults and threats. Sorry, but this isn't something I feel is even up for debate. At the end of the day, there's no place for that kind of behaviour, and I think that most people would draw the line at making threats and attacking people on a personal level.

Gotta agree with this. Critiques, as harsh as they are are all good and fine, but when that goes to personal threats and insults, that's not an excuse. As bad as something is, violence of any kind if never the answer. 

[Icinix]

Dr_Hello wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I actually don't think BioWare fans should be on there.

But how about.."Consumers". The thing people seem to forget is that as consumers they have the power of their money. Companies can only survive or die because of their consumers.

For fans, it's not about the money, it's about the love and connection they have with, in this case, the game called Mass Effect. I wouldn't reduce the fans to being simply consumers with money.

I used that as an example of ultimate power over a company, but meant in the fact that consumers have the power.

If you saw what happened in Australia regarding Vegemite a few years back, thats what I mean.

A similar thing happened, company decided to bring out a much loved icon with some changes and called it a really dumb name.

The consumers across Australia got it changed by protesting against it.

I just think it should be "Consumers" not "BioWare Fans"  - makes it look like a cheap stab.

[camcon2100]

I expect April to be either Bioware being hailed as kings. Or a sh*t storm of the Century!