1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Exeider]

John Epler wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Maybe it's an outsider opinion but I find that it might say something about the product when that kind of anger is being thrown at anybody in the company. I mean telling people they should be fired or threatening them are serious emotive responses right?

Why is that happening? Is that the community's fault, the game's, or both? I find that the more I look at the sheer volume of confusion, hurt, disappointment, anger, and the desire to express them, the more it seems like something's wrong with the PRODUCT not the people.

I mean there is a huge number of people hoping that the ending never really happened! Is that good? I mean honestly?

Regardless of how you feel about the ending or the product, no, there's never an excuse for personal insults and threats. Sorry, but this isn't something I feel is even up for debate. At the end of the day, there's no place for that kind of behaviour, and I think that most people would draw the line at making threats and attacking people on a personal level.

John, are you refering to people attacking bioware, or bioware attacking people, or both??
-AE

[scomoletti]

TheWerdna wrote...

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

I completely agree.

I am really starting to get kinda upset with all the peoiple not being civil and going around harassing Bioware employees and/or people who disagree with them. As much as I dislike the ending, I have tried to be as respectful as I can, since it is the right thing to do. I just feel, bad, about all the people who are being, well, jerks.

This. Scale has an impact but all it takes is one person to lash out and make it personal and it sets the tune for everything that follows no matter how civil the rest of us may be. A number of posters cant even agree with eachother politely in this very thread and you really expect the BioWare team to wade in and just take it on the chin? 

I also never expected a repsponse from Stanly, Chris, John, Casey, or any of the others as to what will or will not happen to be honest. Given the nature of whats going here and the sheer size of the response I expected it would only ever come from Ray. Unfortunately his response left more than a bit to be desired.. While he acknowledged we have a grievance he never once indicated that it had any validity. He instead waved his trophies around (paid for reviews..) and then pushed the whole 'art' thing to the breaking point. It felt like a pr response. It did nothing to appease the masses which is what I think people are looking for. A little acknowledgement and not the wave off. 

So..while I get peoples frustration with all this I also think that the BioWare team has done a hell of a job dealing with it given the position they are in right now. So maybe we can all lighten up, be a little nicer..more respectful. It doesnt mean you need to avoid topics or your viewpoints on them..just dont be angry and confrontational about it.

[Stanley Woo]

Paparob wrote...

Thanks for responding to my questions Stanley, I appreciate it. Our of curosity, and I mean nothing by this question but I was wondering did you play Mass Effect 3 yourself?

I was moved to the franchise a couple of weeks ago and have been playing various aspects of it every day since. Very impressive.

[TheOptimist]

John Epler wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Maybe it's an outsider opinion but I find that it might say something about the product when that kind of anger is being thrown at anybody in the company. I mean telling people they should be fired or threatening them are serious emotive responses right?

Why is that happening? Is that the community's fault, the game's, or both? I find that the more I look at the sheer volume of confusion, hurt, disappointment, anger, and the desire to express them, the more it seems like something's wrong with the PRODUCT not the people.

I mean there is a huge number of people hoping that the ending never really happened! Is that good? I mean honestly?

Regardless of how you feel about the ending or the product, no, there's never an excuse for personal insults and threats. Sorry, but this isn't something I feel is even up for debate. At the end of the day, there's no place for that kind of behaviour, and I think that most people would draw the line at making threats and attacking people on a personal level.

And you're right.  Honestly, and this is coming from a guy who knows every voice raised against the ending helps, you should instaban anyone who comes at developers or mods with personal derogatory comments and especially threats.  We don't want those people and we're not with them.

[Crocmon]

Dreogan wrote...

Crocmon wrote...

John Epler wrote...

And that's fair, but at the same time - we're human. When you have fifteen, or twenty, or twenty five people sending you incredibly insulting PMs and essentially telling you that you need to either A) be fired or come to physical harm, it can colour your opinion a bit. I'd like to say we all have thick skins and can take that sort of abuse, but that'd be untrue. We all deal with it differently, of course, but at the end of the day we're still human. Particularly as Stan does most of his interactions with the community outside of his work hours because he's really passionate about the community and is one of your greatest advocates within the company - he's not being paid when he's on these forums.

I spent enough time on the DA2 forums post-release to know where he's coming from. Even if, intellectually, you know that they're only a small percentage, it still hurts, and it can still be rather aggravating.

Mr. Epler, I respect you and Mr. Woo's attempts to at least discuss things with us. Now, before someone jumps down my throat for brown-nosing, I only need to mention two words.

Positive Reinforcement.

If the other staff members aren't coming to talk to us for the reasons these guys claim, don't you think it would render more dialogue with all of the team if we treated these two gentlemen properly and told them what we want in a calm, positive and thoughtful manner? If we do that, then the hostile minority will be ruled as such and EA/Bioware wouldn't be talking off-the-record in frustration about it. Now, I'm not saying they are paying these publications to bad-mouth us, but perhaps maybe some news-source is talking to some staff member. News-source hears that staff member is being stressed by the community (assuming that they occasionally just have friendly bull-sessions). Seeing a great opportunity to get hits for the site, the news-source then bad-mouths those stressing the developer. News-source gets hits, staff member gets more stress, and the news-source just offers condolences at a later date.

Sure, a few game-news-sources are going completely off-the-rails here and spouting out things that they may or may not have actual experience with (I assume at times Adam Sessler may not have played the ending and is just being sensational in his dialogue for ratings sometimes), but can you blame them? Every time a news article criticizes the Retakers they get tons of hits, tons of exposure via word-of-mouth (which leads to more hits), and just overall raw reinforcement.

Simple discussion here works. We openly avoid stressing the few who do talk to us, they'll realize we're not all rabid dogs baying for blood, and thus be able to convince the PR guys we're not all ****s.

I respect Bioware for all of their work, and while I strongly disagree with the decisions that led to the endings, I'm perfectly open to tell them why. I might come off a bit confrontational at times, but it isn't out of irrational rage over the endings just my dissatisfaction with them, and would gladly rectify and apologize should I ever come across as outrageous.

Shut up, you. Don't bring that there logic into this. This is the internet! We don't take none too kindly to folks like you!

I legitimately laughed at that. You've got no idea how hard. [insert brofist]

[Torrible]

Karrie788 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Maybe it's an outsider opinion but I find that it might say something about the product when that kind of anger is being thrown at anybody in the company. I mean telling people they should be fired or threatening them are serious emotive responses right?

Why is that happening? Is that the community's fault, the game's, or both? I find that the more I look at the sheer volume of confusion, hurt, disappointment, anger, and the desire to express them, the more it seems like something's wrong with the PRODUCT not the people.

I mean there is a huge number of people hoping that the ending never really happened! Is that good? I mean honestly?

Regardless of how you feel about the ending or the product, no, there's never an excuse for personal insults and threats. Sorry, but this isn't something I feel is even up for debate. At the end of the day, there's no place for that kind of behaviour, and I think that most people would draw the line at making threats and attacking people on a personal level.

Agreed. If we feel passionate enough to make personal threats we shouldn't expect Bioware, who are still human beings, to just take it like robots and answer our requests with a smile.
There's no good reason to ask for someone to be fired, period.

That being said, I still hate the endings.

And the very people who have no qualms about throwing insults one after another at Bioware employees get all upset when they find a single word 'entitled' in a gaming website article.

[aksoileau]

Is it PAX yet? ><

Waiting game is turrrrible.

[DJBare]

Opsrbest wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What you have to understand about the threatening PMs is most of us are completely oblivious to that.
I'm sure from your perspectives it must appear like the enemy's at the gates, but over here we're just trying to make our points known.

I don't expect any leniency for people who'd be so crass as to attack BioWare employees, but we are not them.

But you will get lumped in with them. I'm trying to remember the adage .... it has something to do with association ......

So how would you suggest we disassociate ourselves from those people?, since they are using PM's for the most part we don't even know who they are, I'm sorry that the team are getting such abuse from those people, but that's no excuse to tar the rest with the same brush.

[MetalCargo999]

Exeider wrote...

John Epler wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Maybe it's an outsider opinion but I find that it might say something about the product when that kind of anger is being thrown at anybody in the company. I mean telling people they should be fired or threatening them are serious emotive responses right?

Why is that happening? Is that the community's fault, the game's, or both? I find that the more I look at the sheer volume of confusion, hurt, disappointment, anger, and the desire to express them, the more it seems like something's wrong with the PRODUCT not the people.

I mean there is a huge number of people hoping that the ending never really happened! Is that good? I mean honestly?

Regardless of how you feel about the ending or the product, no, there's never an excuse for personal insults and threats. Sorry, but this isn't something I feel is even up for debate. At the end of the day, there's no place for that kind of behaviour, and I think that most people would draw the line at making threats and attacking people on a personal level.

John, are you refering to people attacking bioware, or bioware attacking people, or both??
-AE

I thought you didn't want to talk to them?

[NekoPanOnline]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Paparob wrote...

I don't blame you Stanley, I have no ill will towards you personally perhaps since I'm civil with you might be able to answer a few questions for me. I promise nothing inflammatory or above your pay grade.

1) I understand there is a lot over analyzing on the fans part, I can agree its can get a bit out of hand but why do you feel that fans are speculating on Bioware statements to such a degree?

Because as much as people will threaten to leave the community, to never buy another BioWare product again, to never listen to thing we say again, there is a shred of hope that many in the community will hang onto. Now matter how demoralized people get, no mater how angry and frustrated they may feel, they really, really, really, really, really want to hear that their issues have been "fixed."

At the moment, however, the wounds are too large and too deep, so they scour all of BioWare's comments in an effort to find either those comments that keep their hope alive and/or those that they feel justify their furstration, hatred, or anger.

though it may seem contrary, this is a testament to how much our game has affected our fans and how much they care about our game and the franchise, and we can't (and don't) blame them for that.

2) How much of a dialogue do you have with the developers?

Little.

at first i thought you were gonna say no matter what people will come back and buy our stuff i was gunna be mad XD
im sorry so much is going on, i wish none of this had happened, while the ending is disapointing i dont really blame bioware, i think ea buying bioware just to get more money was bad, people trusted bioware less, and to musch it seems they were right, but i think bioware WANTs to do whats right and i think bioware has always listened to its fans, we were upset with the scanning in me2 so you guys made it super easy :3 thanks

[WizenSlinky0]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Paparob wrote...

Thanks for responding to my questions Stanley, I appreciate it. Our of curosity, and I mean nothing by this question but I was wondering did you play Mass Effect 3 yourself?

I was moved to the franchise a couple of weeks ago and have been playing various aspects of it every day since. Very impressive.

I can't help but think of how hilarious it would have been for you to say "No, do you think I should?"

[Evenjelith]

Hi Stan/John,

Thanks again for taking the time to engage with us. I hope this question is something you’re able to comment on.

There have been a number of videos posted on Youtube regarding community concerns with the ending(s). Many of them express my own feelings far more eloquently then I could ever hope to. Given the scale of commentary on the forums already, it seems pointless for me to add yet another voice to the crowd. However, it would bring me some solace to know that the development team had at least watched these videos and did not misconstrue the moment as simply ‘demanding a happy ending’. A very good one was recently added in a different thread:

http://social.biowar.../index/10715611


Do you know if these videos have permeated past community moderators such as yourselves within Bioware to the development team?

Modifié par Evenjelith, 29 mars 2012 - 03:23 .

[Mesmurae]

camcon2100 wrote...

I expect April to be either Bioware being hailed as kings. Or a sh*t storm of the Century!

It pretty much comes down to this for me. April is as long as I'm going to wait around for them.

Now, if April comes and Bioware doesn't give us SOMETHING to work with, they lose me as a customer. That's really the most effective way to vote. With your wallets.

[Stanley Woo]

Dreogan wrote...

Shut up, you. Don't bring that there logic into this. This is the internet! We don't take none too kindly to folks like you!

Okay, i've heard this sentiment before, but this particular presentation of it made me chuckle. Thanks, Dreogan.

[Dragoonlordz]

Greer wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Greer wrote...

John Epler wrote...

[Well, I can't speak for the ME team, but I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding exactly how things move in a company the size of BioWare, especially one that's publicly traded. Not your guys' fault - you have no real need to know what goes on internally, you're not employees. But there are things we can say in public, things we can't, and things we can say, but only when they're approved by the appropriate parties (legal, etc.) Not to mention that, in a situation where there's as much emotion on the line as there is here, you want to be very careful as to what you say because, hey, people are going to react, and you don't want an ill-conceived word sending everyone into a frenzy.

I imagine that, when they are able to say more, they'll say more. I'd counsel patience, although I understand that, when you're passionate about an issue, that's easier said than done. Most of you have been quite civil and polite, and we thank you for that. But vitriol and insults from the vocal minority who -aren't- able to remain civil isn't going to make things go faster. I hate saying 'it'll happen when it happens', but that's largely true with bigger companies. It's not always ideal, but it's a fact of life and business.

I don't know what goes on directly at Bioware, I admit that up front. However, I am no stranger to how large corporations in general work and understand that sometimes you can't say what you might like, or that you have to speak in vaguearies due to legal issues.

However.

None  of that is an excuse for the blatant trolling some of your staff have done to the fanbase. I can go pull up tweets from Chris Priestley that insinuate ReTakers are idiots. I have screenshots of the official masseffect twitter responding favorably to someone who called ReTakers (and thus a majority of your fanbase) vile things I can't repeat here. Woo himself has been trolling us since this thread opened.

Complete stonewalling isn't the answer either.

There exists a middle ground between blocking us out entirely and insulting and belittling us. It would probably behoove Bioware to find it.

I bet you can't. Also insinuation is no better than assumption. One thing it is not, is exactly what they said.

I PMed you initially, but figured after I'd click send that I might as well go ahead and make it public, too.

@masseffect's tweet (WARNING, FOUL LANGUAGE) - and for the record, they've continued to play buddybuddy with this guy:

http://www.martnet.c.../finchlynch.jpg

Chris Priestly's tweet:

https://twitter.com/...967731070799872

And as said to you first one is dismissing by not providing validation to what was said the second one clearly is a joke and there is no evidence was directed at you or your group, you just assume it is because of your bias.

[TheLostGenius]

Rich in speculation. For all we know their was a planned post-game expansion all along...

[alx119]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Paparob wrote...

Thanks for responding to my questions Stanley, I appreciate it. Our of curosity, and I mean nothing by this question but I was wondering did you play Mass Effect 3 yourself?

I was moved to the franchise a couple of weeks ago and have been playing various aspects of it every day since. Very impressive.

Awesome to hear! I hope you do enjoy the journey. And if by the end you don't like the destination, you can always secretly hold the line with us! Although, I am guessing you will probably like it, but defend that Fluttershy deserves a better ending. Because I know you like Fluttershy. 

[Lethys1]

aksoileau wrote...

Is it PAX yet? ><

Waiting game is turrrrible.

The end of the waiting game is better than the beginning or middle of it.

[h4wkeye1]

John Epler wrote...

JMA22TB wrote...

Maybe it's an outsider opinion but I find that it might say something about the product when that kind of anger is being thrown at anybody in the company. I mean telling people they should be fired or threatening them are serious emotive responses right?

Why is that happening? Is that the community's fault, the game's, or both? I find that the more I look at the sheer volume of confusion, hurt, disappointment, anger, and the desire to express them, the more it seems like something's wrong with the PRODUCT not the people.

I mean there is a huge number of people hoping that the ending never really happened! Is that good? I mean honestly?

Regardless of how you feel about the ending or the product, no, there's never an excuse for personal insults and threats. Sorry, but this isn't something I feel is even up for debate. At the end of the day, there's no place for that kind of behaviour, and I think that most people would draw the line at making threats and attacking people on a personal level.

I agree with this. I'll say it first, I hated the ending. It disappointed me. But to actually threaten people with physical harm? Seriously, you would hurt a human being because the ending of a game was bad.... that's just WRONG. There is no justification for that. If you want to protest the ending, do it with constructive criticism and keep it polite. Threatening to harm someone because of that doesn't put you far away from a nut house.

[txmn1016]

@scomoletti

"So..while I get peoples frustration with all this I also think that the BioWare team has done a hell of a job dealing with it given the position they are in right now. So maybe we can all lighten up, be a little nicer..more respectful. It doesnt mean you need to avoid topics or your viewpoints on them..just dont be angry and confrontational about it."

I really hope people follow your advice. I saw this thread when it first popped up. Sooo disappointed to see where it has ended up.

[Exeider]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Paparob wrote...

Thanks for responding to my questions Stanley, I appreciate it. Our of curosity, and I mean nothing by this question but I was wondering did you play Mass Effect 3 yourself?

I was moved to the franchise a couple of weeks ago and have been playing various aspects of it every day since. Very impressive.

@Paparob

no, ask the hard question. "Stanley, Have you played the mass effect series from start to finish?"

-AE

[John Epler]

Exeider wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...
Mr.Woo is not the person to say this to, he has little to nothing to do with the development of ME3.

Then WHY are we even talking to him? we need to pass the gatekeeper/PR man and talk with someone who can acutally make decisions.

where is the game industry equivelent of "I want to speak to the manager."

-AE

ps. "there is a fly in my ending, i require a new one."

Stan talks to you because Stan has a passion and love of our community that's equal parts his good nature and his longstanding association with the company. That's not to say that other developers don't also love the community, but he's willing to talk with you even when there's not much of substance anyone can say at the moment, because he likes to make sure that our community is a constructive and healthy place where people can go to discuss games and whatever else is on their mind.

I would wager that the 'gatekeepers', as you put it, are well aware of what the community has said thus far. Again, I'm not a member of the ME team, so I can't talk to specifics, but it is not as easy as saying 'well, people want Y, let's tell them what we're doing!'. I know it can be frustrating, but once again I counsel patience.

[Lavits75]

Sesshaku wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

I assure you, i dare you to say on this forums "We will change the ending and give you what we orginally promised".

Im pretty sure 90% will say FINALLY!! awesome, and thanks you so much.

It's not that hard isn't it?.

Yeah, that'd be great, but think of legal ramifications if he said something that big without proper authorization.

[VigilancePress]

Stanley Woo- Thanks for jumping in and talking. Even if it's to say "We can't say anything yet" having someone address us directly in some way is helpful.

I think the proportion of people making noise about how angry they are compared to the people talking on BioWare's end is part of the issue. It's nobody's fault, but when you have 40 thousand people clamoring about an issue and a miniscule fraction of people on BioWare's end basically say "We're Listening", the problem snowballs. It's not that BioWare is doing anything *wrong* with how they respond (as you've said, there are limits to what you can say, and when), but the pressure from our end has been to get a *definitive* answer to our complaint... which, of course, leads us to dissect everything from BioWare's end to try and find some clue to what is going to happen.

I sympathize with both sides, and I hope you'll forgive us our trespasses, but take solace in the knowledge that our passion is what makes us so aggressive. I know I personally will be willing to wait a year or more for what I want, once I know it's coming. I've been with the Mass Effect franchise as a fan since I played the first game on the X-Box 5 years ago. Until then, my only option is to come to the forums and discuss my end of things with other forum-goers as often as possible.

As for accusations of greed and such, I know I'm guilty of levying certain charges against EA/BioWare, but those charges are simply how I perceive the situation from my perspective as a consumer. It may seem harsh, but without knowing both sides of the situation, I can only make judgements about BioWare actions as how they affect me. Hopefully you and BioWare can understand that and take away as much useful criticism as possible from my limited and emotionally charged viewpoint.

Here's looking forward to the day that BioWare finally breaks the silence.

Holding the Line!