1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Aznable Char]

Crocmon wrote...

John Epler wrote...

And that's fair, but at the same time - we're human. When you have fifteen, or twenty, or twenty five people sending you incredibly insulting PMs and essentially telling you that you need to either A) be fired or come to physical harm, it can colour your opinion a bit. I'd like to say we all have thick skins and can take that sort of abuse, but that'd be untrue. We all deal with it differently, of course, but at the end of the day we're still human. Particularly as Stan does most of his interactions with the community outside of his work hours because he's really passionate about the community and is one of your greatest advocates within the company - he's not being paid when he's on these forums.

I spent enough time on the DA2 forums post-release to know where he's coming from. Even if, intellectually, you know that they're only a small percentage, it still hurts, and it can still be rather aggravating.

Mr. Epler, I respect you and Mr. Woo's attempts to at least discuss things with us. Now, before someone jumps down my throat for brown-nosing, I only need to mention two words.

Positive Reinforcement.

If the other staff members aren't coming to talk to us for the reasons these guys claim, don't you think it would render more dialogue with all of the team if we treated these two gentlemen properly and told them what we want in a calm, positive and thoughtful manner? If we do that, then the hostile minority will be ruled as such and EA/Bioware wouldn't be talking off-the-record in frustration about it. Now, I'm not saying they are paying these publications to bad-mouth us, but perhaps maybe some news-source is talking to some staff member. News-source hears that staff member is being stressed by the community (assuming that they occasionally just have friendly bull-sessions). Seeing a great opportunity to get hits for the site, the news-source then bad-mouths those stressing the developer. News-source gets hits, staff member gets more stress, and the news-source just offers condolences at a later date.

Sure, a few game-news-sources are going completely off-the-rails here and spouting out things that they may or may not have actual experience with (I assume at times Adam Sessler may not have played the ending and is just being sensational in his dialogue for ratings sometimes), but can you blame them? Every time a news article criticizes the Retakers they get tons of hits, tons of exposure via word-of-mouth (which leads to more hits), and just overall raw reinforcement.

Simple discussion here works. We openly avoid stressing the few who do talk to us, they'll realize we're not all rabid dogs baying for blood, and thus be able to convince the PR guys we're not all ****s.

I respect Bioware for all of their work, and while I strongly disagree with the decisions that led to the endings, I'm perfectly open to tell them why. I might come off a bit confrontational at times, but it isn't out of irrational rage over the endings just my dissatisfaction with them, and would gladly rectify and apologize should I ever come across as outrageous.

Where were BioWare community representatives when IGN decided to insult us ? When were the BioWare community responders when people were calling us entitled ?

I want to give BioWare right now the opportunity to be on the record about whether or not the insults flung towards their fans who wanted a new ending were justified or wrong .

This is not a demand , but simply my suggestion for how BioWare can help calm the Retake movement if they actually defended their LOYAL fanbase .

And yes , LOYAL . None of the Retakers would be here if we didn't love the BioWare product . Unfortunately , all the bad press was allowed to sit and fester . And then we are pointed out for being angry at such things ? If BioWare truly suffers fatigue from getting insults from PMs , then surely they can empathize with the fanbase who have been slandered . But somehow I don't expect BioWare to give any response to that . I would be happily surprised if they did .

Either way , the other comment I wanted to say about your post is this idea of attracting more developers to talk with us with some kind of honey or incentive through being nice and proper is rather interesting . I understand the intention , but these are professionals . These are professionals and are supposed to act as professionals . This doesn't mean we slander them , no , but rather we should treat them as professionals .

If this was a transaction and they withold their end of the resources , then withhold yours .

Withold your investment , your money , your recommendation , your assertions of the goodness of this brand . Withold all of that . If the developers really want to come talk to us here or even a spokesperson then it's not going to be because we laid down an offering on the Altar of BioWare , it's because their collection plate has no money in it .

[Mushufasa1512]

When it gets down to it I think people just want to know one way or another. It seems like everyone is now fixated on PAX, but what happens if the same PR evasive tactics are taken there? I think sooner or later people are just going to get burned out on this and not in a good way. While I fully understand things take time to get resolved in corporate America, surely some type of decision has been made by now. Fans cling to every scrap of information BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING ELSE.

Anyway despite the fact that I was highly disappointed with the endings, I do think the mods on these forums have done a good job keeping them civil. I do not envy any public face of Bioware at the moment and think you guys deserve some props for maintaining your cool.

[panamakira]

Honestly at this point the more aggressive and cross-border insulting our arguments sound the more they'll choose to ignore them. I understand being hurt and angry that first week. I was. I still very much disagree with BioWare's poor decision with the ending but I've had a chance to calm down and be patient to get what I want. Which is better content for the endings. I'm sure I did not sound civil that whole time right after finishing the game because that just how disappointed and angry I was at BioWare.

However we have gotten some response to our dissatisfaction with the endings. We've had time to calm down. At this moment we have to be patient. Reading most of the comments in here we just come across as childish with nothing better to do complaining to a video game company. Yes I do believe we are the most passionate fans but we have to learn to respect other people, specially when making requests.

There is so much power in HOW you word a complaint, even a request. Insulting devs, insulting each other and just coming here to be angry is not going to get anything across other than you're probably a troll. I could understand the outrage that first week after we played the game but now, at least, let's be patient and wait for any kind of announcement in April before we throw everybody in the pit.

[UrgentArchengel]

It'd be funny if Bioware already had been working on epilogue DLC before hand. Those silly reviewers would sound like even bigger douchebags.

[Tehzim]

Geneaux486 wrote...
"Starchild", "space magic" and "red/green/blue endings" are all strawmen.  Every argument has its supporters who use strawmen, yet here you are trying to say that everyone who's argued in favor of the endings has used them.  This is not only untrue, but demonstrates a lack of objectivity.

Mr. Youtube would beg to differ...    

[Fattness132]

I will put aside my anger and frustration dealing with this issue until PAX. Right now there is no point in getting more worked up. Hopefully all of our anger will be alleviated, but all we can do right now is try to calm down and wait.

[masseffectfan94]

The force is strong with this group.

[JMA22TB]

John Epler wrote...

Regardless of how you feel about the ending or the product, no, there's never an excuse for personal insults and threats. Sorry, but this isn't something I feel is even up for debate. At the end of the day, there's no place for that kind of behaviour, and I think that most people would draw the line at making threats and attacking people on a personal level.

Of course it isn't good or even acceptable. I don't defend anyone who does that kind of stuff it's childish and immature.

It's just very telling that the community as a whole seems to be far more upset than happy, content, or satisfied, even when they are being civil.

I don't know the rules of PR or legal challenges regarding open discussions of the products but if there was a chat session where the lead writer got to have a dialogue with the fans that would give everyone somewhere to look to for answers when so far all they're seeing is people upset and the company saying behave.

I think the overwhelming response warrants something like that but, again, I'm not privy to the kinds of rules you guys have

[Paparob]

Exeider wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Paparob wrote...

Thanks for responding to my questions Stanley, I appreciate it. Our of curosity, and I mean nothing by this question but I was wondering did you play Mass Effect 3 yourself?

I was moved to the franchise a couple of weeks ago and have been playing various aspects of it every day since. Very impressive.

@Paparob

no, ask the hard question. "Stanley, Have you played the mass effect series from start to finish?" 

-AE

I was actually building towards that. Well I hope you don't mind me asking but did you? Just as one fan to another, I'm curious to see if you picked the game up recently or if you've been following the series for a while.

Edit: Off topic slightly but how is that a hard question? lol Also feel free to jump in with questions if you have them, its not like I'm the designated "Questioner of Stanley Woo" 

Modifié par Paparob, 29 mars 2012 - 03:30 .

[Bantz]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

Stanley, first ty for taking the time to speak with the fanbase, it's refreshing. I don't know why anyone would call you guys liars for posting here. Unless you came here and said something will not be done, and then do it in the DLC you haven't lied. Personally I understand the silence from Bioware. Though I do think an official statement that says "we're working on stuff for the ending, please just give us some time we want to make sure we do it right for our loyal fans." or something like that. What we got just sounded like a whole lot of PR speak.

The only accusations Ive heard of people being liars was in reference to the devs prior to release making very specific statements about the game and then not delivering. IE It isn't the kind of game that you can do a pick A, B or C type ending to, and then give us A,B,C.. well you get the idea. That's where a lot of the "liar" type comments come from. Please don't think those of us that are in the fight (figuratively speaking) are "anti bioware" or anti you guys speaking to us. In fact I think it's very much so the opposite. We want to hear from you guys about what's going on!

[The Angry One]

Oh how we'll laugh if it turns out BioWare were working on some epic ending DLC all along, ahaha.
Yeah I'm not seeing it.

[TheShadowWolf911]

i feel so powerful now........i feel like i can take on a dictatorship.............and then quickly get defeated.

[MorSterling]

ME3 is a very good game 95% of the time.Yes the the 3 color ending is cheap and not at all what was promised.

But apart from that there are parts as bad journal and too few hubs which i hope will will be adressed in future DLC´s?

[KawaiiKatie]

John Epler wrote...

I can't talk to specifics, but it is not as easy as saying 'well, people want Y, let's tell them what we're doing!'. I know it can be frustrating, but once again I counsel patience.

Surely there's a middleground between "Let's tell them what we're doing!" and "Your call is very important to us, please hold." You can counsel patience all you'd like, but asking people to wait on hold for a month is just ridiculous...

[liggy002]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

It'd be funny if Bioware already had been working on epilogue DLC before hand. Those silly reviewers would sound like even bigger douchebags.

That would be so damn epic it would be hard to believe even if it did happen.  Almost like winning the lotto but not quite

Modifié par liggy002, 29 mars 2012 - 03:30 .

[John Epler]

I don't think name calling and personal attacks help anyone's case, regardless of who they are and who they're referring to. That's as much of a statement as you'll get from me on any articles related to any of this, sorry. It's not really my place - I'm not on the ME team. Now, if you want my opinion on DA related stuff... well, I can't say much there, either. Whoops.

[Bantz]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

It'd be funny if Bioware already had been working on epilogue DLC before hand. Those silly reviewers would sound like even bigger douchebags.

well based on who you believe and what rumors you believe to be true they (bioware) were. It's been rumored a few times by a few different places that something was in the works since before release or just after. And yes, the people at IGN and such would look like total idiots if they ripped the fans for not liking the endings only to have bioware release a DLC that they'd been working on since before fans complained about the endings  that fixes the endings. Wow for some reason I just read that last line in the spacebrats voice. I need sleep.

[curufinwe03]

John Epler wrote...

twizbuck wrote...

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

Then look at it in percentages. How many people have been positive in their response, and how many have been negative, in relation to the whole. I understand what you're saying, but some of the things Mr. Woo has said on here are... rather discerning.

And that's fair, but at the same time - we're human. When you have fifteen, or twenty, or twenty five people sending you incredibly insulting PMs and essentially telling you that you need to either A) be fired or come to physical harm, it can colour your opinion a bit. I'd like to say we all have thick skins and can take that sort of abuse, but that'd be untrue. We all deal with it differently, of course, but at the end of the day we're still human. Particularly as Stan does most of his interactions with the community outside of his work hours because he's really passionate about the community and is one of your greatest advocates within the company - he's not being paid when he's on these forums.

I spent enough time on the DA2 forums post-release to know where he's coming from. Even if, intellectually, you know that they're only a small percentage, it still hurts, and it can still be rather aggravating.

So, you are saying that a few unpleasent impressions can alter your viewpoint of the greater experience negativly? Yes, we the retakers, can understand that.

[WildcardCharlie]

Dragoonlordz wrote...


@masseffect's tweet (WARNING, FOUL LANGUAGE) - and for the record, they've continued to play buddybuddy with this guy:

http://www.martnet.c.../finchlynch.jpg

Well there you have it, definitive proof that all Retake detractors are vulgar and combatant.

Modifié par WildcardCharlie, 29 mars 2012 - 03:31 .

[T-Zero]

liggy002 wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

It'd be funny if Bioware already had been working on epilogue DLC before hand. Those silly reviewers would sound like even bigger douchebags.

That would be so damn epic it would be hard to believe even if it did happen.  Almost like winning the lotto but not quite

Seconded.

[WizenSlinky0]

John Epler wrote...

I don't think name calling and personal attacks help anyone's case, regardless of who they are and who they're referring to. That's as much of a statement as you'll get from me on any articles related to any of this, sorry. It's not really my place - I'm not on the ME team. Now, if you want my opinion on DA related stuff... well, I can't say much there, either. Whoops.

What's your opinion on cupcakes.

Or leading the 40th strongest power to conquer the other 39. Woo doesn't seem interested.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 29 mars 2012 - 03:32 .

[Geneaux486]

That's certainly... imaginative.

Not really, just going by the cards the endings lay on the table.

Good job ignoring the entire paragraph i wrote out becuase you couldn't muster up a proper repsonse.  You aren't debating, you are trolling, thus you should be ignored.

I didn't read your post because you opened with how you were ignoring something that's clearly shown in the game.  There's no point in arguing with someone who does that.

[Exeider]

John Epler wrote...

Exeider wrote...

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...
Mr.Woo is not the person to say this to, he has little to nothing to do with the development of ME3.

Then WHY are we even talking to him? we need to pass the gatekeeper/PR man and talk with someone who can acutally make decisions.

where is the game industry equivelent of "I want to speak to the manager."

-AE

ps. "there is a fly in my ending, i require a new one."

Stan talks to you because Stan has a passion and love of our community that's equal parts his good nature and his longstanding association with the company. That's not to say that other developers don't also love the community, but he's willing to talk with you even when there's not much of substance anyone can say at the moment, because he likes to make sure that our community is a constructive and healthy place where people can go to discuss games and whatever else is on their mind.

I would wager that the 'gatekeepers', as you put it, are well aware of what the community has said thus far. Again, I'm not a member of the ME team, so I can't talk to specifics, but it is not as easy as saying 'well, people want Y, let's tell them what we're doing!'. I know it can be frustrating, but once again I counsel patience.

Yeah, but if this is some twisted ARG, its obviously gotten out of hand...

The truth about all this reaction is the frustration John, because the community is unsure of just to give up hope and accept it, or that the ME team has planned this all along with an ace in the hole.

What moment people don't want to go through is this, We keep our hopes up, and the ME team, says "no, the ending you got is the ending you got. we never said we would change it, just expand on it." meaning the galaxy is still screwed, mass relays blown up, people dead, etc.

and for many people, it will be the whole ending disappointment all over again. combined with the "oh god, they got us again." frustration on top of that.

-AE

[The Angry One]

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

i feel so powerful now........i feel like i can take on a dictatorship.............and then quickly get defeated.

I feel like I can talk with a ghost kid and not to what he says! Brb.


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I picked blue. DAMNIT.