1334 réponses à ce sujet

[jb1983]

John Epler wrote...

withneelandi wrote...

John Epler wrote...

I don't think name calling and personal attacks help anyone's case, regardless of who they are and who they're referring to. That's as much of a statement as you'll get from me on any articles related to any of this, sorry. It's not really my place - I'm not on the ME team. Now, if you want my opinion on DA related stuff... well, I can't say much there, either. Whoops.

You literally had me going for a second.......

I was about to ask you to comment on the comedy "mass effect is the same universe as dragon age" theory.

I'm telling you, Corpheus was the trapped spirit of a Reaper and that thing they reffered to under Val Royeux is a crashed long burried Reaper.







(I'm kidding, please don't think i'm a looney)

I continue to argue for an easter egg in a DA game where you come across a 'mysterious broken machine' that's actually the remains of one of the probes from ME2. Scanning a populated planet always made me envision an Armageddon-type scenario where death rained down from the sky while Shepard calmly watched his resource bar.

This. Do this.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

jb1983 wrote...
We were thrown a bone (I think). 

Being told, basically, "Guys, we can't say anything due to constraints, but trust me on this, please wait it out."

That, to me, is pure honesty. No PR manipulation. No cryptic messages. Just a guy at home off the clock letting the fans know that our concerns will be addressed as soon as Bioware can get something going. 

Indeed, it proves what I've been saying, that the rank and file are ok guys.  It's Casey, Mac, and Ray who are causing the trouble.

Stanley - I don't expect you to knock your bosses, but you have to understand that with statements like "artistic integrity" and "too video-gamey" we aren't going to have a high opinion of them. 

[Skyblade012]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Exeider wrote...

actually, its funny you mentioned it, I did work on an award winning title, an MMO to be specific, you might of heard of it, called EvE Online. worked as a QA Lead and worked with the developers all the time.

I can send you a resume if you don't believe me.

Edit: and a phone number to verify my employment..

-AE

It's funny. Then you of all people should realize that, as a developer, we already have a very different view of the game and the development process than most gamers. Why would you then issue that challenge? I'm familiar with all the arguments, I have friends who have played the game, I have seen the endings with my own eyes, I have experienced a lot of the games leading up to it.

Besides which, every gamer is going to experience their games differently. who's to say that what you experience is going to be the same as what JoeGamer experiences, or what SusanPlayer experiences? I think your challenge of "play the game like I did and you'll feel the way I do" is misguided.

Are you allowed to voice your own opinion on the endings, out of curiosity, or does the potential for overanalysis and backlash mean that the PR guys say you have to be quiet?

I mean, you aren't on the clock while on these forums.  Add in some "this is the personal views of Mr. Woo, not those of Bioware" (like IGN did when Mr. Moriarity expressed his personal views through the site's video service), of course, so that people can't take it as anything official.  But it'd be interesting to see.

For that matter, what did your friends think?  Or are they all BioWare employees as well?

[Computer_God91]

I just wanted to say Stanley, before you disappear. That I love your sig. Always gives me a chuckle.

[Fapmaster5000]

Guys, this is moving a mile a minute, but I think that all the sound and fury stems from the fact that most of us who despised that ending (myself included) raised a bloody ruckus because we love, not because we hate. Most things that dig me that bad make me walk away. I've only fought this hard for 1.) My job. 2.) My relationships. 3.) This game. That says something. (Probably something very very sad, but still, bravo to you guys.)

Right after I finished, the reaction was a quick flash of rage, followed by honest to god grief, and the sudden, strikingly bold thought, "No, it can't end like this." Not as in, "in universe" but as in "this thing I love so much can't end like my first relationship, with me covered in wine and blood- OKAY TOO FAR". Anyway, you get what I'm trying to say, right? I think nearly all of ReTake came from the same, very honest place. We loved ME, we want to keep loving ME, and that ending was so bad, it would make us leave it behind. It wasn't "we demand an ending we like better" it was "this series was so damn good, it demands and ending that is true to its power".

Now, like most of the more civil ReTakers, I hung up my banner after the Doctor's statement. Big companies take time to change course. They require meetings and panels and conferences and team-building and God-knows-what. I'm a corporate drone myself, I know ALL ABOUT Monday staff meetings and HR taking a ****** on legal and the automated mail server pooping out duplicates of an email to EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE COMPANY FROM EVERY OTHER SINGLE PERSON IN THE COMPANY FOR SEVEN DAYS STRAIGHT. I know you may not change it, you may not be able to change it.

Just know that we don't want it changed for us. Well, not just for us. We want it changed so that we can honestly hold it up and say, "best series evar".

And the info vacuum may be necessary, but that empty space becomes an echo chamber, filled with the loud (trolls) and the vicious (certain-gaming-news-sites), and people start screaming back. Please, guys, stay open, like in this thread, communicate with us, and if you can, please fix/expand that ending to be more like what it should have / could have been. We're on your side, and if you'd open dialogue (not just form letters), I think we could show you that we are.

As for the trolls, screw 'em. The angry people? Remember, that ending hit a raw nerve, and some people lack tact.

Oh, and enjoy those cupcakes!

PS: Which flavor was your favorite? Vanilla, vanilla, or vanilla? <-- not actually angry. Internet makes light humor sound meaner than it is.

[Sangheili_1337]

I don't think Bioware should read too much into the overly negative non constructive posts. They are made by the minority that cant channel their feelings the right way but they are so passionate because they care so much about the series. I doubt they have any real ill will towards Bioware. I am glad that for the most part, the retake mass effect campaign has been so civil compared to any forum for any other game. Go to Bungie.net or Bethesda forums and you will see true whining.

[alx119]

Seriously people, stop trying to convince Stanley to play. Gaming is a hobby, not an obligation. If you turn it into that for him, you'll just ruin gaming for him. Or just make him hate you, you decide.

[Exeider]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Exeider wrote...

actually, its funny you mentioned it, I did work on an award winning title, an MMO to be specific, you might of heard of it, called EvE Online. worked as a QA Lead and worked with the developers all the time.

I can send you a resume if you don't believe me.

Edit: and a phone number to verify my employment..

-AE

It's funny. Then you of all people should realize that, as a developer, we already have a very different view of the game and the development process than most gamers. Why would you then issue that challenge? I'm familiar with all the arguments, I have friends who have played the game, I have seen the endings with my own eyes, I have experienced a lot of the games leading up to it.

Besides which, every gamer is going to experience their games differently. who's to say that what you experience is going to be the same as what JoeGamer experiences, or what SusanPlayer experiences? I think your challenge of "play the game like I did and you'll feel the way I do" is misguided.

I disagree with you there, Developers who play on the level of the player become better developers because they understand how things operate in the production environment, now this may just be my MMO experiance talking and may be vastly different then working on a static game, but with emergent properties to everything from gameplay mechanics to social mechanics, if the developers design something, but they can not account for the emergent properties in how it interacts with other mechanics, and more importantly, how it interacts with the players.

players will always find different ways to use things then the way we design them. Developers who don't come down to the players level and see it from their point of view, risk being caught in a "Ivory tower" mindset and becoming disconnected with the player base. As evident by Eve Online's Nexus debacle last year. (Which, i warned them about btw. I knew it was a bad idea.)

Only by "slumming" it with the players, does a developer understand how a player feels, thinks and operates the game they are interacting with, and in doing so become better developers themselves.

-AE

ps. I am now leaving work, so i will not be able to reply for some time. good chatting with you stanley.

[TheOptimist]

Opsrbest wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

DJBare wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

DJBare wrote...
Wait, you are basing your entire argument on something that took place a month ago, here, thought I'd do your work for you.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/30
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/31
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/32
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/33
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/34
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/35

Funny part is I just read through those pages and the person using the worst language is a guy telling people to buy
the game and not believe the leaks.

There was bad feeling on both sides, but in a topic with over 2500 pages that's small potatoes.

Yeah, but it doesn't even support his argument.  He claimed BSN retake folks were using terrible language to insult developers.  There were people unhappy with the end, but I didn't see anyone doing the kind of stuff he talked about.

Ah hahahahaha, no I wasn't. That was not my initial response to the poster. Get your understanding right.

Opsrbest wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...


@masseffect's tweet (WARNING, FOUL LANGUAGE) - and for the record, they've continued to play buddybuddy with this guy:

http://www.martnet.c.../finchlynch.jpg

Well there you have it, definitive proof that all Retake detractors are vulgar and combatant.

On the same lines you could go through just about every retaker thread on this forum and find the same thing. So your point is moot.

That's what you said.  Seriously, is there another interpretation I'm missing here?

[WildcardCharlie]

Exeider wrote...
 behind your product so much, please, put your money where you mouth is and try it. What are you afraid of?

I played the games, and played them throughly. I ask you to do the same, its really not much that I am asking. Play your own game.


-AE

I'm sorry, I'm a Retaker, but this is nonsensical.

Woo has no obligation to play through ME1/ME2 to "understand" our position. They know our position...we felt gutpunched by the ending. Him playing through the game is not going to lead to some "AHA! Now I understand them" moment and solve all the problems.

[Dr_Hello]

Greer wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

Can I ask you a question, though? I don't know what you know, but from what you DO know, are the guys at BioWare taking us seriously? More than just statements to placate us? How much do they even care? I want to believe they still care a lot, they're Bioware, after all..

Ray Muzyka released a statement to the community. RAY, one of the company's co-founders and currently an EA Senior Vice-President and BioWare Label GM! How much more seriously do you want to be taken?

Except his statement was still loaded with buzzwords like "artistic integrity" and he hid behind critics' ratings and reviews instead of actually addressing the fans' complaints.

And I think, really, that's what it boils down to - we feel like we aren't being heard because our actual issues haven't been acknowledged. It's always "critics' ratings" and "judge for yourself" and "not every story will have a happy ending" and "artistic ingegrity".

I think that's all any of us want right now - it's all we've wanted from the start, really - honest acknowledgement of our grievances (our actual grievances, not the strawman list that seems to continue to pop up in every PR statement) and then a promise that something will be done to address them or confirmation that nothing's changing so that those of use who are still hopeful can stop feeling jerked around.

But it has been confirmed that 'something' is being done about it.

They haven't revealed what exactly, which is understandable. However they are working toward something. So we'll see when it comes out and let's hope it blows our hats and pants off... well, the hats off will be fine enough.

[The Angry One]

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Exeider wrote...
 behind your product so much, please, put your money where you mouth is and try it. What are you afraid of?

I played the games, and played them throughly. I ask you to do the same, its really not much that I am asking. Play your own game.


-AE

I'm sorry, I'm a Retaker, but this is nonsensical.

Woo has no obligation to play through ME1/ME2 to "understand" our position. They know our position...we felt gutpunched by the ending. Him playing through the game is not going to lead to some "AHA! Now I understand them" moment and solve all the problems.

True, but arguing without context is.... problematic at best.

[jarrettwold]

Seriously my first thought after reading the thread title was this

 


My first thought.  


I don't know, I tend to worry about the effect.  I'm really, really hoping it's a bottom up reaction from Bioware.As in, it's not EA looming large in the background saying "thou shalt fix this Bioware, THOU SHALT FIX THIS!"  I'm hoping it's what it appears to be, a fan petition that bumps up the ladder incrementally until it hits the dev team and they think about it and make a choice.

I don't know if articulated that clearly enough so it doesn't sound tinfoil hat paranoia.  But, it would personally bug me if the top down push from EA is how we end up getting our whatever.

Make sense?

[Bedevil123]

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Exeider wrote...
 behind your product so much, please, put your money where you mouth is and try it. What are you afraid of?

I played the games, and played them throughly. I ask you to do the same, its really not much that I am asking. Play your own game.


-AE

I'm sorry, I'm a Retaker, but this is nonsensical.

Woo has no obligation to play through ME1/ME2 to "understand" our position. They know our position...we felt gutpunched by the ending. Him playing through the game is not going to lead to some "AHA! Now I understand them" moment and solve all the problems.

this

[Isichar]

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Exeider wrote...
 behind your product so much, please, put your money where you mouth is and try it. What are you afraid of?

I played the games, and played them throughly. I ask you to do the same, its really not much that I am asking. Play your own game.


-AE

I'm sorry, I'm a Retaker, but this is nonsensical.

Woo has no obligation to play through ME1/ME2 to "understand" our position. They know our position...we felt gutpunched by the ending. Him playing through the game is not going to lead to some "AHA! Now I understand them" moment and solve all the problems.

Lol i can imagine it now... Stan plays through ME3 and goes to his boss "I can no longer support this company and its corrupt values, I QUIT!" Come Stanly Woo... become one of us...

[The Angry One]

Dr_Hello wrote...

Greer wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

Can I ask you a question, though? I don't know what you know, but from what you DO know, are the guys at BioWare taking us seriously? More than just statements to placate us? How much do they even care? I want to believe they still care a lot, they're Bioware, after all..

Ray Muzyka released a statement to the community. RAY, one of the company's co-founders and currently an EA Senior Vice-President and BioWare Label GM! How much more seriously do you want to be taken?

Except his statement was still loaded with buzzwords like "artistic integrity" and he hid behind critics' ratings and reviews instead of actually addressing the fans' complaints.

And I think, really, that's what it boils down to - we feel like we aren't being heard because our actual issues haven't been acknowledged. It's always "critics' ratings" and "judge for yourself" and "not every story will have a happy ending" and "artistic ingegrity".

I think that's all any of us want right now - it's all we've wanted from the start, really - honest acknowledgement of our grievances (our actual grievances, not the strawman list that seems to continue to pop up in every PR statement) and then a promise that something will be done to address them or confirmation that nothing's changing so that those of use who are still hopeful can stop feeling jerked around.

But it has been confirmed that 'something' is being done about it.

They haven't revealed what exactly, which is understandable. However they are working toward something. So we'll see when it comes out and let's hope it blows our hats and pants off... well, the hats off will be fine enough.

Yes, "clarification". That sits badly with a lot of us, because it implies - to us - a thinking reminiscent of those  who claim we don't have the intelligence to "understand" the endings (which isn't the case at all, in fact the endings are woefully simplistic) so we need them explained to us rather than fixed.

[alx119]

The Angry One wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Exeider wrote...
 behind your product so much, please, put your money where you mouth is and try it. What are you afraid of?

I played the games, and played them throughly. I ask you to do the same, its really not much that I am asking. Play your own game.


-AE

I'm sorry, I'm a Retaker, but this is nonsensical.

Woo has no obligation to play through ME1/ME2 to "understand" our position. They know our position...we felt gutpunched by the ending. Him playing through the game is not going to lead to some "AHA! Now I understand them" moment and solve all the problems.

True, but arguing without context is.... problematic at best.

He's not really arguing about -the game- but merely talking about the community as a whole. He's not saying: The community is wrong for diliking the endings. Or nothing the like. 

[John Epler]

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

[Dr_Hello]

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Exeider wrote...
 behind your product so much, please, put your money where you mouth is and try it. What are you afraid of?

I played the games, and played them throughly. I ask you to do the same, its really not much that I am asking. Play your own game.


-AE

I'm sorry, I'm a Retaker, but this is nonsensical.

Woo has no obligation to play through ME1/ME2 to "understand" our position. They know our position...we felt gutpunched by the ending. Him playing through the game is not going to lead to some "AHA! Now I understand them" moment and solve all the problems.

Stay strong, people! Keep it together!

[MetalCargo999]

TheOptimist wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

DJBare wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

DJBare wrote...
Wait, you are basing your entire argument on something that took place a month ago, here, thought I'd do your work for you.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/30
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/31
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/32
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/33
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/34
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9512916/35

Funny part is I just read through those pages and the person using the worst language is a guy telling people to buy
the game and not believe the leaks.

There was bad feeling on both sides, but in a topic with over 2500 pages that's small potatoes.

Yeah, but it doesn't even support his argument.  He claimed BSN retake folks were using terrible language to insult developers.  There were people unhappy with the end, but I didn't see anyone doing the kind of stuff he talked about.

Ah hahahahaha, no I wasn't. That was not my initial response to the poster. Get your understanding right.

Opsrbest wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...


@masseffect's tweet (WARNING, FOUL LANGUAGE) - and for the record, they've continued to play buddybuddy with this guy:

http://www.martnet.c.../finchlynch.jpg

Well there you have it, definitive proof that all Retake detractors are vulgar and combatant.

On the same lines you could go through just about every retaker thread on this forum and find the same thing. So your point is moot.

That's what you said.  Seriously, is there another interpretation I'm missing here?

Somehow, I get the feeling you all agree with eachother more than you all think...

[Helmchen2010]

jb1983 wrote...

Helmchen2010 wrote...

I want to thank Stanley Woo and John Epler for spending so much time in this thread tonight. It's appreciated.

I hope you two understand just how badly large parts of the ME community want to be thrown a bone, *something* that indicates that Bioware is taking their concerns seriously. I know you will say, "Look, RAY wrote a long blog on just this", but no, that was a streamlined PR statement more than anything. The problem is that, with each passing day, more fans throw in the towel, and the main reason is: too much vagueness, ambiguity, and not any concrete statement.

The reason fans scour over every peep that Bioware makes, be in on Twitter, Facebook or here, is the very fact that there hasn't been *anything* said that concretely addresses the main concerns. So, I don't think the fans can be blamed for their obsessive scrutiny with regards to communication from BW's general direction.

We want a sign of life.

We were thrown a bone (I think). 

Being told, basically, "Guys, we can't say anything due to constraints, but trust me on this, please wait it out."

That, to me, is pure honesty. No PR manipulation. No cryptic messages. Just a guy at home off the clock letting the fans know that our concerns will be addressed as soon as Bioware can get something going. 

Oh, don't get me wrong, I totally believe John and Stanley about their predicament, both in terms of what they know and what they can say.

I was referring to the actual ME3 developers. Exaggerated and obsessive fan outrage notwithstanding, this whole "crisis" could have been handled a lot better. I do believe all that a lot of us desire is a bit more transparency and concreteness - more of this sooner could have calmed the sea, I believe. I see John's and Stanley's point though, that with a corporation of this size, development moves slowly. 

[EvilChani]

Aznable Char wrote...

I also agree with Mr. Woo (in so far that I understand him) in the sense that complaining about something to be done on our time and on our schedule is not within our realm of discretion nor is it in the realm of our discretion to determine when something is addressed and when it's not .

We are not entitled to their attention or their pity , even , even though I am sure we have a lot of their compassion and understanding .

This is what we are entitled to , however:

Our Money
Our Time
Our Attention
Our Recommendation to Others
Our Opinion of the game outside of BioWare's spheres .

So instead of attempting to gain something that we are not entitled to (BioWare handholding us)
Let's exercise what we are entitled to .

Spend your money wisely on what you want . If the ending is not what you want , be like me and buy games that are applicable to our likes .
Don't want to spend 200 hours only to have an ending the ruins the experience ? Play a different game . Spend some time doing something else .
Don't want to be hooked in by what some might consider false promises ? Don't listen to their announcements or attend their functions or watch give them pagehits or things like that .
Wish someone warned you about spending 60 dollars on something that you hated ? Be like me and talk about it with your friends . I told them about my experience and they decided for themselves not to buy from BioWare
Feel strongly about warning others to beware of this product? There are great opportunities to make videos and speak freely and openly outside of a moderated forum .

So again . Let's not worry about what we cannot have from BioWare . Let's focus on what we are indeed entitled to . Let them work and not be bothered . Let us be not bothered by them and spend our money elsewhere .

Lastly , why am I here ? Because I wanted to tell BioWare that I loved the game so much that I am willing to give them a chance to fix the ending in order to win back my fan loyalty , money , recommendations , time , effort , etc . I want to be proud to campaign for BioWare again just like when i convinced my friend Luke to buy Dragon Age Origins or when I convinced Anthony to invest in ME1 . I want to be able to do that again . So the Retake movement is about a love letter to BioWare saying "BioWare , please win me back"

And yes people can say we're making demands . So let's not . If Mr. Woo seriously does not want us to demand or feel entitled then let's please not demand . Let's calmly exercise what we are really entitled with instead of asking for something that is not ours .

^^This. BioWare can do as it pleases right now...fix the ending, don't fix the ending, offer us some DLC that fixes the romances, offer us meaningless crap instead, whatever rows their collective little boat. But the days of me blindly offering them my money (by pre-ordering their games and tripping over my own feet in a hurry to get my hands on any DLC that comes out, or even just buying their games) are done. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. 
This attitude that we, as consumers, should shut the hell up, hand them our money, and accept whatever pile of crap they give us in return without complaint is grating, to say the least. 


So I don't want their pity and I don't want their condescending comments about how we should beg them nicely for a treat in the form of an ending that doesn't blow chunks and ruin the entire ME trilogy so badly that some of us have no desire to even touch ME1 or ME2 again after having played it numerous times. If they want to offer something that turns out to be worth my time and money - and that will make it so that I can actually get through ME3 and feel good when I finish it (as opposed to being so depressed and annoyed that I can't manage to touch any game for over a week) - then I won't write them off entirely (or see them as a money-grubbing company that encourages its employees to lie to and insult those who buy their games) and will give them another chance, albeit a cautious one. If they don't see fit to offer DLC that will fix this game's end, then I will continue to tell everyone I know to avoid ME3 (and ME1 and ME2) like the plague and tell them exactly why they should do that, as well as why they should avoid any BioWare (and EA Games) title that exists. 

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Dr_Hello wrote...


But it has been confirmed that 'something' is being done about it.

They haven't revealed what exactly, which is understandable. However they are working toward something. So we'll see when it comes out and let's hope it blows our hats and pants off... well, the hats off will be fine enough.

The problem is that on Friday they said on the twitter "We're not changing anything, we're clarifying"

With no recanting of that, we're not going to just calm down.  I try to keep from going out of line with my own comments, but it is very difficcult with **** like that twitter comment.  We want change, not clarification.