1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Isichar]

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

I think you underestimate how thoroughly some of us have played through this game...

[bucyrus5000]

Wait a sec.
Stanley, you haven't played ME3? That is disconcerting.

[Skyblade012]

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

You should have been in on ME3.  The glitch where Shepard never goes back to looking at Liara after asking about Glyph was quite annoying.  One of the biggest glitchs I saw in the game (besides the face import bit).

[MrSuperCrazyAwesome]

Stanley, I just came here to say that your signature is most triumphant. Also thanks to everyone at Bioware for a supremely excellent adventure.

[The Angry One]

alx119 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Exeider wrote...
 behind your product so much, please, put your money where you mouth is and try it. What are you afraid of?

I played the games, and played them throughly. I ask you to do the same, its really not much that I am asking. Play your own game.


-AE

I'm sorry, I'm a Retaker, but this is nonsensical.

Woo has no obligation to play through ME1/ME2 to "understand" our position. They know our position...we felt gutpunched by the ending. Him playing through the game is not going to lead to some "AHA! Now I understand them" moment and solve all the problems.

True, but arguing without context is.... problematic at best.

He's not really arguing about -the game- but merely talking about the community as a whole. He's not saying: The community is wrong for diliking the endings. Or nothing the like. 

Not now, but there were some posts earlier where he seemed to imply that the endings boiling down to red, green and blue were entirely our perception.

[camcon2100]

No Mr. Woo you should come to Pax this year. I need to shake your hand my friend!

[Stanley Woo]

bucyrus5000 wrote...

Wait a sec.
Stanley, you haven't played ME3? That is disconcerting.

Disconcerting in what way?

[alx119]

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

Yeah,... Sigh, understandable Mr Epler. Thank you for your time nevertheless, it means a lot to some of us to be talked in a equal, casual, manner and at least be told that the understanding is mutual. 

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...


But it has been confirmed that 'something' is being done about it.

They haven't revealed what exactly, which is understandable. However they are working toward something. So we'll see when it comes out and let's hope it blows our hats and pants off... well, the hats off will be fine enough.

The problem is that on Friday they said on the twitter "We're not changing anything, we're clarifying"

With no recanting of that, we're not going to just calm down.  I try to keep from going out of line with my own comments, but it is very difficcult with **** like that twitter comment.  We want change, not clarification.

I have said this before, it is EXTREMELY unlikely Bioware is just going to cut out the ending in place and give you a brand new one.  Clarification and post ending DLC is the best you are probably going to get.  You cant just ask the to completely remove something from their game and expect them to comply.

[VigilancePress]

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

As a publisher (of pen and paper RPG stuff), I totally hear this. I know the kerning of characters better than the actual content of some books. I spend a lot of time looking at manuscripts through an editor's lens, so sometimes it's hard to remember how a consumer will look at it. Fortunately, I have good consumers who give good feedback, and that helps me make the next product better (or fix a problem with a current one).

[Stanley Woo]

Folks, again, let's keep the not-so-subtle jabs out of the conversation, please. You guys are having a different conversation than the one we're having in here.

[MrSuperCrazyAwesome]

Stanley, I just came here to say that your signature is most triumphant. Also, thanks to everyone at Bioware for a supremely excellent adventure.

Modifié par MrSuperCrazyAwesome, 29 mars 2012 - 04:38 .

[JohnnyG]

EvilChani wrote...

Aznable Char wrote...

I also agree with Mr. Woo (in so far that I understand him) in the sense that complaining about something to be done on our time and on our schedule is not within our realm of discretion nor is it in the realm of our discretion to determine when something is addressed and when it's not .

We are not entitled to their attention or their pity , even , even though I am sure we have a lot of their compassion and understanding .

This is what we are entitled to , however:

Our Money
Our Time
Our Attention
Our Recommendation to Others
Our Opinion of the game outside of BioWare's spheres .

So instead of attempting to gain something that we are not entitled to (BioWare handholding us)
Let's exercise what we are entitled to .

Spend your money wisely on what you want . If the ending is not what you want , be like me and buy games that are applicable to our likes .
Don't want to spend 200 hours only to have an ending the ruins the experience ? Play a different game . Spend some time doing something else .
Don't want to be hooked in by what some might consider false promises ? Don't listen to their announcements or attend their functions or watch give them pagehits or things like that .
Wish someone warned you about spending 60 dollars on something that you hated ? Be like me and talk about it with your friends . I told them about my experience and they decided for themselves not to buy from BioWare
Feel strongly about warning others to beware of this product? There are great opportunities to make videos and speak freely and openly outside of a moderated forum .

So again . Let's not worry about what we cannot have from BioWare . Let's focus on what we are indeed entitled to . Let them work and not be bothered . Let us be not bothered by them and spend our money elsewhere .

Lastly , why am I here ? Because I wanted to tell BioWare that I loved the game so much that I am willing to give them a chance to fix the ending in order to win back my fan loyalty , money , recommendations , time , effort , etc . I want to be proud to campaign for BioWare again just like when i convinced my friend Luke to buy Dragon Age Origins or when I convinced Anthony to invest in ME1 . I want to be able to do that again . So the Retake movement is about a love letter to BioWare saying "BioWare , please win me back"

And yes people can say we're making demands . So let's not . If Mr. Woo seriously does not want us to demand or feel entitled then let's please not demand . Let's calmly exercise what we are really entitled with instead of asking for something that is not ours .

^^This. BioWare can do as it pleases right now...fix the ending, don't fix the ending, offer us some DLC that fixes the romances, offer us meaningless crap instead, whatever rows their collective little boat. But the days of me blindly offering them my money (by pre-ordering their games and tripping over my own feet in a hurry to get my hands on any DLC that comes out, or even just buying their games) are done. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. 
This attitude that we, as consumers, should shut the hell up, hand them our money, and accept whatever pile of crap they give us in return without complaint is grating, to say the least. 


So I don't want their pity and I don't want their condescending comments about how we should beg them nicely for a treat in the form of an ending that doesn't blow chunks and ruin the entire ME trilogy so badly that some of us have no desire to even touch ME1 or ME2 again after having played it numerous times. If they want to offer something that turns out to be worth my time and money - and that will make it so that I can actually get through ME3 and feel good when I finish it (as opposed to being so depressed and annoyed that I can't manage to touch any game for over a week) - then I won't write them off entirely (or see them as a money-grubbing company that encourages its employees to lie to and insult those who buy their games) and will give them another chance, albeit a cautious one. If they don't see fit to offer DLC that will fix this game's end, then I will continue to tell everyone I know to avoid ME3 (and ME1 and ME2) like the plague and tell them exactly why they should do that, as well as why they should avoid any BioWare (and EA Games) title that exists. 

+1 to both.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

John Epler wrote...

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

Yeah, I KNOW what you are talking about, the tedium is enormous.  But if you guys talk about listening and taking input, you shouldn't also talk about "artistic integrity".

I'd actually be less mad if the statements were "we don't feel like it", it would at least be honest.

[TheOptimist]

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

Yikes, I can only imagine that gets tedious after a while.  And I think it's true with any job that someone on the inside will almost always have a different take on things than someone on the outside looking in.

[granyte]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Exeider wrote...

The difference is I'm willing to work on a triple A game trilogy, in fact dying to work on one. and as far as an arguement, thats a far cry in effort from simply sitting down and playing your companies product that you believe in so much. The fact that you attempt to defuse it with such grandeouse statements just speaks to the obviousness.

I ask you to play the games, imbibe the product and come back with your answer. If you stand behind your product so much, please, put your money where you mouth is and try it. What are you afraid of?

Nothing, actually. Nor will I take your bait. You'll have to be satisfied that I'll get to the games when I get to them.

i must admit i find that funny that those who work behind the doors don;t have time to know the product they are devlopping or helping devlo that led to horrible result in the past


in anyway thanks for taking the time to talk with us

Modifié par granyte, 29 mars 2012 - 04:36 .

[Diablos2525]

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

That's pretty depressing . It sucks that you guys can't enjoy the series like we do because of all the testing and work you have to put into it. Not really sure if there's a solution to that, it just sucks, sorry.

By the way I think your games are a lot better than sausage, and crafted with a lot more creativity and love. 

[Stanley Woo]

VigilancePress wrote...

As a publisher (of pen and paper RPG stuff), I totally hear this. I know the kerning of characters better than the actual content of some books. I spend a lot of time looking at manuscripts through an editor's lens, so sometimes it's hard to remember how a consumer will look at it. Fortunately, I have good consumers who give good feedback, and that helps me make the next product better (or fix a problem with a current one).

I no longer know what it's like to look at something uncritically.

[Laurcus]

Stanley, if you could answer a question for me, I'd be delighted. Umm, how to word this without it sounding like entrapment/bait... What do you personally think of the indoctrination theory?

Oh god, that sounds terrible lol. Like I'm fishing for a dev response with a loaded question, but I swear that's not my intent. I understand that you can't speak for the devs, and your knowledge of specific details about the plans and intentions of the developers likely isn't much greater than my own. But still, I'd like to know if you have an opinion on it.

The way I see it, it's currently causing this huge schism in the community. Cause on the one hand, you have the people that believe it, and from what I've seen they want ending DLC that continues the fight post Shepard waking up. On the other hand, you have the guys that believe what we got is what we got. From what I've seen, they want to whole last 10-15 minutes of the game retconned.

I'm not even sure where I fall into that. It feels weird though, like I'm not even discussing the, "right" thing half the time, if that makes any sense. Do you feel the indoctrination theory is just grasping at straws/over-analyzing?

I understand if you can't or won't answer my post, as I feel it's a lot for me to ask.

[Gormane01]

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

You poor buggers (note Aussie use of term) Having to do this would ruin all games for me I think. Whole reason I stayed out of the industry. I love games, 'having' to play them as opposed to 'wanting' to play them would be hell

[WildcardCharlie]

granyte wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Exeider wrote...

The difference is I'm willing to work on a triple A game trilogy, in fact dying to work on one. and as far as an arguement, thats a far cry in effort from simply sitting down and playing your companies product that you believe in so much. The fact that you attempt to defuse it with such grandeouse statements just speaks to the obviousness.

I ask you to play the games, imbibe the product and come back with your answer. If you stand behind your product so much, please, put your money where you mouth is and try it. What are you afraid of?

Nothing, actually. Nor will I take your bait. You'll have to be satisfied that I'll get to the games when I get to them.

i must admit i find that funny that those who work behind the doors don;t have time to know the product they are devlopping or helping devlo that led to horrible result in the past

Do you think people in the marketing field should have to be users of every product they help advertise?

[John Epler]

Isichar wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

I think you underestimate how thoroughly some of us have played through this game...

Oh, I don't doubt that there are people who've seen the vast majority of most of the Normandy conversations. But it's a rather different experience when you play something with the intention of breaking it, versus playing it with the intention of enjoying it. I had Excel spreadsheets with the various ways to go through all the conversations, just to make sure I hit every single branch. And I did it. Numerous times. It's part of why it took me so long to play through ME2 - every time I got to the Normandy, I had to put the game down.

[alx119]

The Angry One wrote...


Not now, but there were some posts earlier where he seemed to imply that the endings boiling down to red, green and blue were entirely our perception.

I think he was merely defending the writers, who are probably his friends. Or at least thats what I thought it was. But nevertheless, at least he has not sided with anyone, nor said anything really out of place regarding the game itself.
I mean, "Red green and blue" is really our perception if you think about it xD The real thing is, Control, Synthesis and Destroy P: 

[Exeider]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Exeider wrote...

The difference is I'm willing to work on a triple A game trilogy, in fact dying to work on one. and as far as an arguement, thats a far cry in effort from simply sitting down and playing your companies product that you believe in so much. The fact that you attempt to defuse it with such grandeouse statements just speaks to the obviousness.

I ask you to play the games, imbibe the product and come back with your answer. If you stand behind your product so much, please, put your money where you mouth is and try it. What are you afraid of?

Nothing, actually. Nor will I take your bait. You'll have to be satisfied that I'll get to the games when I get to them.

sorry if it seemed like i was baiting. The long and the short of it is this, because i got to get home.

put your money where you mouth is, and play the game. Because unless you have played the game, you can't really say if its good or bad, whether the endings sucked or not. Whether the animation was right or now, or any of a thousand critiques.

you could probably get paid for it if you cited it as, community research or something.

All I'm saying is if you going to defend something, wouldn't it be smart to actually KNOW the material your defending. And the reason why I say do it from the players point of view is so that you can understand the frustration, the peril, the triumph, the experiance from playing it and playing it as anyone else does. No dev tools, memory value changes, nothing. just straight legit, vanilla gameplay.

Look i'm taking a risk here too, you may play it, love the endings, and have ammunition for an arguement as to why the endings should NOT be changed. That's a risk I'm willing to take. Because at least Stanley, I will be talking with someone who I know played the games and is stating his opinion from that foundation.

take it as a suggestion and not a challenge if that makes you feel better.

-AE

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Hey Woo. Nice for you to stop by and talk with us. No seriously, having people from bioware actually coming in and attempting to talk with us civilly calms me down about the endings, and somewhat prevents me of causing a riot out of pure nerd rage.

I know you may have answered this question before, but whether you liked the endings or not, do you sort of understand /why/ many of us are angry? For me in particular, I know that developers can't give every single thing they promised when releasing a game, but when regarding the endings, many of us feel like we've gotten the complete /opposite/ of what the developers promised several times in interviews. Not ending like Lost, no ABC endings, full closure etc.

I mean, it's like going on a new fun and exciting roller coaster, and the makers promised you that at the very end there will be a big splash and fun for the whole family. But then when you actually reach the end of the roller coaster you just have Tony Cox come out from a bush and shoot you with a squirt gun while cussing you out. That's sort of how I felt about it.

Don't get me wrong, ME3 is absolutely phenomenal minus the endings. It really is a work of art, but then it just blew up at the end and proceeded to melt my face (in a bad way). I'm not sure if you guys are intending to do something completely wild with the said endings with expansion packs or not, but as it is now it just feels like a gut punch man. My favorite trilogy and universe that I've loved for 5 years just sort of went....ka-boom, right at the part which I considered was the most important.