1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

granyte wrote...

i must admit i find that funny that those who work behind the doors don;t have time to know the product they are devlopping or helping devlo that led to horrible result in the past

You're assuming I don't "know the product" just because I haven't played Mass Effect 3. I assure you, I know quite a lot about the franchise and the game.

[Auralius Carolus]

Since when did Bioware agree to alter the endings? So far, I've seen news releases stating that they would "clarify" the endings and expand upon them, but not alter.

Is this just "grapevine" journalism, or did I miss something?

[thoreauscabin]

[Violation of Rule #6 removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 29 mars 2012 - 04:45 .

[The_Crazy_Hand]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

I have said this before, it is EXTREMELY unlikely Bioware is just going to cut out the ending in place and give you a brand new one.  Clarification and post ending DLC is the best you are probably going to get.  You cant just ask the to completely remove something from their game and expect them to comply.

Change doesn't necessarily mean completely overhaul.  Addition =/= clarification, but it would indeed be a change.

I'd be happy with a mix of additions to the current endings, with a happy option for those who earned it, and possibly a very, very video-gamey final boss fight with harbinger.

I'd be willing to pay a reasonable price too.  But we can talk about this, just not with words like "artistic integrity" and "clarification"

[Dr_Hello]

The Angry One wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

Greer wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

Can I ask you a question, though? I don't know what you know, but from what you DO know, are the guys at BioWare taking us seriously? More than just statements to placate us? How much do they even care? I want to believe they still care a lot, they're Bioware, after all..

Ray Muzyka released a statement to the community. RAY, one of the company's co-founders and currently an EA Senior Vice-President and BioWare Label GM! How much more seriously do you want to be taken?

Except his statement was still loaded with buzzwords like "artistic integrity" and he hid behind critics' ratings and reviews instead of actually addressing the fans' complaints.

And I think, really, that's what it boils down to - we feel like we aren't being heard because our actual issues haven't been acknowledged. It's always "critics' ratings" and "judge for yourself" and "not every story will have a happy ending" and "artistic ingegrity".

I think that's all any of us want right now - it's all we've wanted from the start, really - honest acknowledgement of our grievances (our actual grievances, not the strawman list that seems to continue to pop up in every PR statement) and then a promise that something will be done to address them or confirmation that nothing's changing so that those of use who are still hopeful can stop feeling jerked around.

But it has been confirmed that 'something' is being done about it.

They haven't revealed what exactly, which is understandable. However they are working toward something. So we'll see when it comes out and let's hope it blows our hats and pants off... well, the hats off will be fine enough.

Yes, "clarification". That sits badly with a lot of us, because it implies - to us - a thinking reminiscent of those  who claim we don't have the intelligence to "understand" the endings (which isn't the case at all, in fact the endings are woefully simplistic) so we need them explained to us rather than fixed.

I don't think there's anything more to explain about the ending other than what's been already said and well documented in the many web articles, youtube videos and even here on this energetic forum. The ending has been extensively analyzed and the concensus is, it's got thematic inconsistencies, plot holes and didn't do what it promised to, particularly the decisions-in-series-will-count-in-the-end factor.

The only thing that 'can' bring validation and logic to the ending would be the indoctrination theory. But that as well has been much discussed already in all forms and shapes.

So I don't expect BioWare to now come out and give an explanation of the ending after so much has already been said about it.

What's left now is, for them to finish developing their DLC and we'll see what they were actually up to and had in mind as a post-ending episode... whether ending is tweaked, changed or left intact.

Modifié par Dr_Hello, 29 mars 2012 - 04:38 .

[DarkSpider88]

John Epler wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

Weird, I remember Bioware people on this forum admitting that the vast majority of Retake has been civil towards them...yet now we're all hostile and antagonistic?

Changing their tune?

When a group gets to a certain size, you can have the majority of that group be civil and respectful and yet still have dozens who are hostile and aggressive. And while that still may be the minority of that group, it can be difficult to make the mental separation when you're being insulted and threatened by that many people on a daily basis.

No tune-changin' here, just the realities of scale.

Does this mean you guys have upgraded from the minority label?

On a serious note I can see your point. When being engaged from all sides it is human instinct to engage all as hostile, even though that isn't the case.

[DJBare]

Stanley Woo wrote...

bucyrus5000 wrote...

Wait a sec.
Stanley, you haven't played ME3? That is disconcerting.

Disconcerting in what way?

You made a rebuttle on a comment mentioning the colored endings, that is disconcerting, it maybe an unwritten rule, but around forums it's certainly expected that anyone who makes an argument requires both context and source.

[bucyrus5000]

Stanley Woo wrote...

bucyrus5000 wrote...

Wait a sec.
Stanley, you haven't played ME3? That is disconcerting.

Disconcerting in what way?

I thought our moderators were as enthusiastic as the members. To learn you have waited to play the game that is the core topic of these forums is...unsettling. 

I do think you are smart to wait, considering the ending and the upcoming DLC (hopefully fixing the ending). Still the suspected lack of enthusiam begs the question of whether you really want to be here, though I'd be out of line asking you that myself.

[Skyblade012]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...


But it has been confirmed that 'something' is being done about it.

They haven't revealed what exactly, which is understandable. However they are working toward something. So we'll see when it comes out and let's hope it blows our hats and pants off... well, the hats off will be fine enough.

The problem is that on Friday they said on the twitter "We're not changing anything, we're clarifying"

With no recanting of that, we're not going to just calm down.  I try to keep from going out of line with my own comments, but it is very difficcult with **** like that twitter comment.  We want change, not clarification.

I have said this before, it is EXTREMELY unlikely Bioware is just going to cut out the ending in place and give you a brand new one.  Clarification and post ending DLC is the best you are probably going to get.  You cant just ask the to completely remove something from their game and expect them to comply.

Sure I can.

The ending was bad.  Objectively bad.  Analysis, from pretty much every angle, shows that it is bad.  From its use of a literary device that has been a "don't do this" for over 2,000 years, to its character-breaking setup, to its thematic shifts from the rest of the series, the ending is fundamentally flawed.

When I get a product with a flaw, I call attention to that and expect the flaw to be fixed.  When I get a bone on a cheesecake, I expect a new piece of cheesecake, not an explanation and some whipped cream to cover it up.

[WildcardCharlie]

DJBare wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

bucyrus5000 wrote...

Wait a sec.
Stanley, you haven't played ME3? That is disconcerting.

Disconcerting in what way?

You made a rebuttle on a comment mentioning the colored endings, that is disconcerting, it maybe an unwritten rule, but around forums it's certainly expected that anyone who makes an argument requires both context and source.

But he knows the ending inside out...In fact, so did I before I even played it.

People let's just abandon the "you haven't played it so you don't know" argument...it's a losing one that will get you nowhere.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Thread is moving fast....

Hope you got my post at the end of page 34, Woo.

[Stonesoundjam]

Pray tell what is the conversation about?

My gist: Fans are dissatisfied and would like a straight answer on whatever BioWare's decision is regarding the endings. Either a yes or a no to changing the endings.

Bioware on their end are quite distressed by the issues at hand but feel it does nobody any favours when they get outrightly abused. They prefer civility but are at this point in time unable to give any assurances or any proper information of any sort because either a) they have no clue where the higher ups are going with this they aren't allowed to divulge anything or c) they're on a break from Draw Something.

Warm?

[The_Crazy_Hand]

To be completely fair, I don't think a company employee necessarily needs to have played the game for context, seeing as how they're around the development process enough to have it without playing.

If that makes sense

[T-Zero]

John Epler wrote...

Isichar wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

I think you underestimate how thoroughly some of us have played through this game...

Oh, I don't doubt that there are people who've seen the vast majority of most of the Normandy conversations. But it's a rather different experience when you play something with the intention of breaking it, versus playing it with the intention of enjoying it. I had Excel spreadsheets with the various ways to go through all the conversations, just to make sure I hit every single branch. And I did it. Numerous times. It's part of why it took me so long to play through ME2 - every time I got to the Normandy, I had to put the game down.

That stinks.  The Normandy convo's are really what carried the game for me.  But I can understand; if you have hamburger every day for a week, you really don't want anything but fried chicken after...

[alx119]

Um, people, they work on their games, doesn't mean they have time to play the games, nor the same point of view as us as Mr Epler said. Have that in mind before jumping to conclusions please.

[Dragoonlordz]

Opsrbest wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

WildcardCharlie wrote...

SOMEONE ELSE POSTED THE LINK! *grumble grumble*
@masseffect's tweet (WARNING, FOUL LANGUAGE) - and for the record, they've continued to play buddybuddy with this guy:
http://www.martnet.c.../finchlynch.jpg

Well there you have it, definitive proof that all Retake detractors are vulgar and combatant.

On the same lines you could go through just about every retaker thread on this forum and find the same thing. So your point is moot.

That's what you said.  Seriously, is there another interpretation I'm missing here?

Yes. How you get that I was saying he or others are being vulgar to the devs, when neither the poster or the tweet have anything to do with that is beyond me.

The fact Wild quoted me as posting that link annoys me more. I never actually posted that and was someone else.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 mars 2012 - 04:42 .

[Fapmaster5000]

To clarify the complaints about "clarification", I think that was simply a bad choice of words that set the tinderbox ablaze. If that clarification is an expansion of the ending, be it with more gameplay, or even with a suitably hefty epilogue for characters and that the galaxy, I think that would quiet a lot of the storm. I REALLY don't like Starchild, but I could at least tolerate it if there was closure. I'd always disagree with it, simply as a narrative device/character, but it would be "great story, crappy end" instead of "great story, ruined by a plot tumor".

It's the echo chamber that's causing a lot of the problems. The corporate "solution" of lockdown and message control is really grating a lot of people the wrong way, especially when "clarification" can be viewed as "you obviously didn't understand our art" *pretentious pipe puffing*. People hear that, their hackles go up, and CAPSLOCK gets slammed into gear, because they feel like their legitimate concerns are being dismissed as "entitled vocal minority".

If Bioware had been more open, right up front, even if that opening was "We wanted to break conventions with an ending that would let you decide your own path, so we decided to deliberately not give closure, but let the fans input their own", I think people would have still been pissed, but it would have been lessened. Instead, it's been three weeks of seesawing and silence and spin control.

I have to imagine that it has felt like a time bomb at Bioware lately, staring at a situation loaded with fireworks and fuses, while trying to light a birthday cake on top of it. The problem is, the fans don't know that without open communications. In a way, many fans, I imagined, viewed themselves more like players in a D&D campaign, able to call up the DM and say, 'Dude, that last session sucked when the ogre stomped us. Is there a way to retcon that and get Steve's paladin back?" than as consumers waiting on the phone at the corporate help line. The response just drove home how wrong they were, about the ending, and about the nature of the relationship.

I think many, including myself, would much rather get closer to the friendly relationship with Bioware that we had, but that ball is NOT in our court. We want proof, and it's proof that a company has a hard time giving, just by it's nature.

Eh, I lost the point a while back. Hopefully someone read this. Going to get a drink and enjoy the night.

[jb1983]

John Epler wrote...

Isichar wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

I think you underestimate how thoroughly some of us have played through this game...

Oh, I don't doubt that there are people who've seen the vast majority of most of the Normandy conversations. But it's a rather different experience when you play something with the intention of breaking it, versus playing it with the intention of enjoying it. I had Excel spreadsheets with the various ways to go through all the conversations, just to make sure I hit every single branch. And I did it. Numerous times. It's part of why it took me so long to play through ME2 - every time I got to the Normandy, I had to put the game down.

I do understand that aspect. Ask anyone who's ever worked in a restaurant for more than a year if they want to go back and eat at that restaurant. Even if the food is good, they just don't have that excitement. I can only assume it's similar. 

As a side note, I should state that while I absolutely detest the ending to ME3, I'm on my 5th playthrough. As much as the ending to DA2 was "eh" to me, I still went through 6 or 7 playthroughs (I think...maybe less). 

I don't know if that's a testament to how well you guys do at Bioware in making these games, or it's a testament to me being OCD. Maybe both?

[Stanley Woo]

Exeider wrote...

sorry if it seemed like i was baiting. The long and the short of it is this, because i got to get home.

put your money where you mouth is, and play the game. Because unless you have played the game, you can't really say if its good or bad, whether the endings sucked or not. Whether the animation was right or now, or any of a thousand critiques.

I respectfully disagree.

you could probably get paid for it if you cited it as, community research or something.

I could not, as it would not be anywhere within the scope of my duties. My time would always be better spent on tasks. (Though when I was moved onto the project, I was told to "play the game" while they worked out what exactly I would be doing on the project.)

All I'm saying is if you going to defend something, wouldn't it be smart to actually KNOW the material your defending. And the reason why I say do it from the players point of view is so that you can understand the frustration, the peril, the triumph, the experiance from playing it and playing it as anyone else does. No dev tools, memory value changes, nothing. just straight legit, vanilla gameplay.

I know the material I'm defending, and I know what the player's view of it is, so I understand the frustration, the peril, the triumph, and the experience of people playing it.

Look i'm taking a risk here too, you may play it, love the endings, and have ammunition for an arguement as to why the endings should NOT be changed. That's a risk I'm willing to take. Because at least Stanley, I will be talking with someone who I know played the games and is stating his opinion from that foundation.

take it as a suggestion and not a challenge if that makes you feel better.

And as I said, I'll get to it when I get to it. That's all I can promise you.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

To clarify the complaints about "clarification", I think that was simply a bad choice of words that set the tinderbox ablaze. If that clarification is an expansion of the ending, be it with more gameplay, or even with a suitably hefty epilogue for characters and that the galaxy, I think that would quiet a lot of the storm. I REALLY don't like Starchild, but I could at least tolerate it if there was closure. I'd always disagree with it, simply as a narrative device/character, but it would be "great story, crappy end" instead of "great story, ruined by a plot tumor".

It's the echo chamber that's causing a lot of the problems. The corporate "solution" of lockdown and message control is really grating a lot of people the wrong way, especially when "clarification" can be viewed as "you obviously didn't understand our art" *pretentious pipe puffing*. People hear that, their hackles go up, and CAPSLOCK gets slammed into gear, because they feel like their legitimate concerns are being dismissed as "entitled vocal minority".

If Bioware had been more open, right up front, even if that opening was "We wanted to break conventions with an ending that would let you decide your own path, so we decided to deliberately not give closure, but let the fans input their own", I think people would have still been pissed, but it would have been lessened. Instead, it's been three weeks of seesawing and silence and spin control.

I have to imagine that it has felt like a time bomb at Bioware lately, staring at a situation loaded with fireworks and fuses, while trying to light a birthday cake on top of it. The problem is, the fans don't know that without open communications. In a way, many fans, I imagined, viewed themselves more like players in a D&D campaign, able to call up the DM and say, 'Dude, that last session sucked when the ogre stomped us. Is there a way to retcon that and get Steve's paladin back?" than as consumers waiting on the phone at the corporate help line. The response just drove home how wrong they were, about the ending, and about the nature of the relationship.

I think many, including myself, would much rather get closer to the friendly relationship with Bioware that we had, but that ball is NOT in our court. We want proof, and it's proof that a company has a hard time giving, just by it's nature.

Eh, I lost the point a while back. Hopefully someone read this. Going to get a drink and enjoy the night.

Well if clarification is expansion, then all they have to do is say so.  Hell, I'll get off their backs.  I'll still be here with my feedbacks on what I think needs adding, but I sure as hell won't be angry if that is the case.

[Isichar]

Biowares games tend to attract the OCD crowd. Replay-ability is important to this set of fans in particular. I can go through my 10th ME play-through and i still feel some level of obligation to do EVERYTHING available. Im upset when i realize i forgot to do a 1 quest in an area and am forced to move on or drop a few hours and go back.

[jarrettwold]

jb1983 wrote...

As a side note, I should state that while I absolutely detest the ending to ME3, I'm on my 5th playthrough. As much as the ending to DA2 was "eh" to me, I still went through 6 or 7 playthroughs (I think...maybe less). 

I am waiting until April, then depending on the news I will go back re-run the suicide mission in ME2, save everyone this time and replay ME3 from the beginning.  But, man playing through 40 hours of ME3, time consuming.  Loved every bit of it up until the last 5sh minutes of the game... but time consuming.  

[DJBare]

WildcardCharlie wrote...
But he knows the ending inside out...In fact, so did I before I even played it.

Knowing about it and experiencing it are two vastly different things, I knew about the endings in great detail before I played, but it was only when I experienced it for myself did I really understand what others were complaining about.

[Vaktathi]

John Epler wrote...

Isichar wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's possible for anyone who's worked on the franchise extensively to approach the games in the same way as a fan who's been here since the beginning. By our very experiences we are already looking at things from a different perspective than you - while you romanced one or two people over your ME2 playthroughs, I've romanced all of 'em. Multiple times. My job, for six and a half months, was to scour the conversations on the Normandy and make sure to document any kind of weird cinematic design bugs that I could find.

I've already seen how sausage is made. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy a hot dog from time to time, but even if I still love them, I'm looking at them in a different way than you are. It's not something I can really do much about - I can't just forget the six and a half months I spent checking every possible permutation and variation of every possible dialogue that would fire on the ship. That's not to say that there aren't some people who can approach the games without their experience being coloured in such a fashion, but I don't think either Stan or myself are that person.

I think you underestimate how thoroughly some of us have played through this game...

Oh, I don't doubt that there are people who've seen the vast majority of most of the Normandy conversations. But it's a rather different experience when you play something with the intention of breaking it, versus playing it with the intention of enjoying it. I had Excel spreadsheets with the various ways to go through all the conversations, just to make sure I hit every single branch. And I did it. Numerous times. It's part of why it took me so long to play through ME2 - every time I got to the Normandy, I had to put the game down.

I ran into something similar  last year when asked to work on a couple of titles, notably having to ask for a reassignment to something other than Killzone 3 since that was about the only game in the pipeline I cared to to play and didn't want to have basically ruined my experience of it beforehand like I'd done with some other titles, and got shifted to a big name racing game that was about the most boring and uninteresting title I've ever had to interact with in my life for a couple of months, and then recalled back to for patches.

Modifié par Vaktathi, 29 mars 2012 - 04:48 .

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Guys, don't be so hard on these two. They're powerless to do anything except forward our complaints to those who can change things.