1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Kashola]

Hudathan wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

First the BSN will take Bioware. Then the entire gaming Industry. Next stop, the world shall be bathed in our flame wars and repetitive posting and creepy fanart!

Let the world not just hear us but bow to us!

But seriously, it's kinda hilarious and awesome at the same time.

It's actually more like the awkwardness at a restaurant when a dude makes a scene because his steak wasn't cooked to his liking.

Except that guy doesn't make the 40 most powerful, doeeeees he? 

Lighten up!

I would if the so-called loyal fans of the series aren't the ones openly sabotaging it.

<_<

[sistersafetypin]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

As a fan base are we paragon or renegade?

We are Paragade

[Greer]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

That's quite the low blow, don't you think?

Most people weren't expecting a fix right now. We know those things take time. All most people wanted was acknowledgement that we were upset, that there had been an error in judgement made, and that steps would be taken to rectify said error.

Instead, we got silence.

And then we were insulted.

And then we got some more silence.

And then we got a PR statement that essentially said we were nothing more than a vocal minority and Bioware was completely baffled by the outcry because all the critics loved the game, but because the fans were apparently too simple to understand the ending, it would be "clarified" for us.

This isn't about throwing a tantrum and expecting something now. Trying to paint it as such is disingenuous.

[Skirlasvoud]

Whow, Kotaku sure knows it's veiled insults.



If they made a list of top 40 undesirable organisations, we'd rank number 4. Right in between the lague of super evil, Bobby Kottick and the guys designing elevator music.

[Danilo Luis]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

Have been a mounth since the release date and we still are in the "lots of speculation" mood. I mean, why couldn't you guys just give us a straigh answer about the issue? I mean, I wasn't unpolity or something, but I don't think you guys gave the fans the proper attention until now. The way you (and when I say you I mean Bioware, not you, Woo, who has been in the "front lines" since the begning of this story) managed this issue wasn't, in my opinion, respectful at all. Silence is not the better answer in this kind of situation. But, again, this is me, my opinion, this woudn't be the way I would manage this situation.

Again, I use to love Bioware, since the Baldur's Gate series (old gamer here), and I know you guys had always kept a open mind to your fan base. But it's clear for me, right now, that something changed in the past years? What, I can't say for sure, but just speculate.

Again sorry if I felt somehow unpolity, wasn't my intention.

[AntonioA9011]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Snakedude4life wrote...

But who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems?

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

(I still would like to hear how you guys missed that)

I would be wary of making such assumptions. Since you aren't on the development team, you can't really know if it was missed, what the issues invovled are, or how or why it appears in the final game. This is a common assumption when players find bugs in the game, but few bugs are well and truly "missed," as you define it.

I keep telling you guys this, but nobody wants to listen to me. BioWare's new motto is: "We DO listen to our fans, it's just we IGNORE them as well."

[lillitheris]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game.

If only they'd been given the chance to…

but few bugs are well and truly "missed," as you define it.

I assume you didn't mean to imply that bugs are intentionally left in the game.

[Tehzim]

I smell a thread lock coming. Let's keep it civil people. Hold the line, but hold it honorably.

[Divitiacus]

Greer wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

That's quite the low blow, don't you think?

Most people weren't expecting a fix right now. We know those things take time. All most people wanted was acknowledgement that we were upset, that there had been an error in judgement made, and that steps would be taken to rectify said error.

Instead, we got silence.

And then we were insulted.

And then we got some more silence.

And then we got a PR statement that essentially said we were nothing more than a vocal minority and Bioware was completely baffled by the outcry because all the critics loved the game, but because the fans were apparently too simple to understand the ending, it would be "clarified" for us.

This isn't about throwing a tantrum and expecting something now. Trying to paint it as such is disingenuous.

This is a very insightful post.

[T-Zero]

Grimez7 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

being a retaker, im very sensitive to that word Mr. Woo

He's not using it in the sense that we've been hearing all to often.  He's actually making a fine distinction between those of us that've made the effort to offer criticism in the correct manner (like most of the posts in the "On the ME3 endings" thread) as opposed to those who've said stuff like, "teh endings s**k and if u don't change it, u s**k."  

Modifié par T-Zero, 29 mars 2012 - 01:48 .

[Blackmind1]

Joolazoo wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Snakedude4life wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bioware has proven themselves to listen to fans with regards to Mass Effect. We see it in the changes they made to the second game, and to the third, and in the DLC they put out for Mass Effect 2. I think they would have listened to fan criticism about the ending no matter what form it came in.

Yup, we would have, just as we've done for the last (at least) 10 years.

But who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems? (I still would like to hear how you guys missed that) 

It's funny, because I've not run into that problem, and I'm on my third import. How strange.

A ton of people have...out of the three shepards ive imported 1 has had the face be useuable.

Oh, I believe you, I just find it funny that I'm the lucky one for once.

[The Angry One]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

We sum it up that way, because that's what we got.

www.youtube.com/watch

However talented and creative the people at BioWare are, they dropped the ball on this.
And by the way, it is BioWare's claim that we, the fans have an influence on their development. Not ours.
Are you surprised we react badly when this turns out to be untrue?

BioWare have every right to implement their own ideas, and we have every right to point out when these ideas don't work, run counter to the entire trilogy and diminish the experience for everyone.

[Immelman]

With great power, comes great responsibility.

[Stanley Woo]

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Why is it so hard for you to stick to a successful formula? Is it a sort of contest? I don't get it.

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

[Jamboa42]

Skirlasvoud wrote...


Whow, Kotaku sure knows it's veiled insults.



If they made a list of top 40 undesirable organisations, we'd rank number 4. Right in between the lague of super evil, Bobby Kottick and the guys designing elevator music.

It's not a veiled insult.

[Geneaux486]

Most people weren't expecting a fix right now. We know those things take time. All most people wanted was acknowledgement that we were upset, that there had been an error in judgement made, and that steps would be taken to rectify said error.

They did acknowlege that some fans were upset. That doesn't mean they would (or should) agree that the ending was a mistake. There are many good reasons to stand by it. Their willingness to compromise as much as they already have has gone above and beyond what I'd expect from any developement team.

[Necrotron]

Patience everyone, regardless of how you (or I) feel about the ending, it is A) someone's baby (they wrote and crafted that thing hoping for us to see the touches they put in it. Obviously, the art missed the mark for many of us, and that is why we have sought resolution. And These same artists who worked hard (seriously, do we not all agree the rest of Mass Effect 3 was pretty darn awesome?) and they will be the ones who swallow their pride about the ending that missed the mark for many (maybe even most), but not everyone. Those people will be the ones changing it.

It obviously takes time. None of this was pre-planned (from what everything seems to indicate). So, it will require the entire many steps of developement to prepare a new ending, including the multiple steps from concept to approved concept ready for production. They have heard us, they stated as much. They want to resolve the disconnect between their customers with lost trust in Bioware.

We just need to wait for PAX for the first stage of their announcements.

Modifié par Bathaius, 29 mars 2012 - 01:50 .

[The Angry One]

Stanley Woo wrote...
I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

You can't be serious.
The theories this ending has spawned relate to the desire to erase it entirely.
The indoctrination theory is entirely based on the idea that it was all a dream and never happened, so appalled are people by this conclusion.

Yes, some people like it. But overall, their reasons don't stand up to scrutiny. The rest of us have laid down detailed reasons as to why these endings are fundamentally broken, and the discussion they've spawned are not the kind that any true ending to a trilogy like ME3's deserves.

[EnforcerWRX7]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Snakedude4life wrote...

But who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems?

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

(I still would like to hear how you guys missed that)

I would be wary of making such assumptions. Since you aren't on the development team, you can't really know if it was missed, what the issues invovled are, or how or why it appears in the final game. This is a common assumption when players find bugs in the game, but few bugs are well and truly "missed," as you define it.

You can't fault people for summing up a game's end as "red, green, blue" when thats exactly how each ending plays out.


They are only describing exactly as they see the end.  They are seeing it with their own eyes.  100s if not 1000s of people have written about it.

Bioware is a wonderfully talented organization who I think just got too melodramatic and put in an end scene that perhaps they didn't realize was...bad.  Its just bad story telling.  No one is labeling it incorrectly.  Red, Green, Blue is exactly how each ending plays out.  Not to mention the broken sequencing, lost narrative and space garden out of nowhere.

We pay good money to live through this story.  Now help us live it out in a proper manner.  The hero's journey must end but it must end right.



I'm willing to be patient as I believe Bioware can right the wrong.

Modifié par EnforcerWRX7, 29 mars 2012 - 01:51 .

[AntonioA9011]

Divitiacus wrote...

Greer wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

That's quite the low blow, don't you think?

Most people weren't expecting a fix right now. We know those things take time. All most people wanted was acknowledgement that we were upset, that there had been an error in judgement made, and that steps would be taken to rectify said error.

Instead, we got silence.

And then we were insulted.

And then we got some more silence.

And then we got a PR statement that essentially said we were nothing more than a vocal minority and Bioware was completely baffled by the outcry because all the critics loved the game, but because the fans were apparently too simple to understand the ending, it would be "clarified" for us.

This isn't about throwing a tantrum and expecting something now. Trying to paint it as such is disingenuous.

This is a very insightful post.

^^^^^This 100%

[KingKhan03]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Why is it so hard for you to stick to a successful formula? Is it a sort of contest? I don't get it.

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

I appreciate you responding to us Stanley, but I hope you know why the fans are so dissapointed with the ending and why we want a different option.

[Divitiacus]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok but why exactly have you done the ending in the worst possible way? The endings of the prequels were great. Why the drastical change? I can't think about it without DA2 comming to mind.

I disagree that the ending was done "in the worst possible way." After all, there have been positive comments and it has spawned a lot of great discussion, theories, and criticism. A "worst possible" ending would not have had that kind of power.

Why is it so hard for you to stick to a successful formula? Is it a sort of contest? I don't get it.

If you have a formula to guarantee that everyone will like waht you've done, then you have a billion-dollar idea that every game developer would love to buy from you. But there are no guarantees when you're talking about business or creative ventures. At best, you can go with things that generally wort or things that many people would like most of the time. You can get a basic idea of the difficulty in coming up with a guaranteed winning idea by seeing the spectrum of emotions and threads posted in this very forum. Even in this thread there are varied responses and feelings about the ending.

I have a winning idea here I'll give for free. A ton of people have extremely high demand for redone endings. People would be willing to pay very high amounts for DLC that gives them endings more tailored to the major decisions they made, like Rachni ground troops in a cutscene. Bioware clearly stands to profit, despite the additional costs this would entail, because people are literally paying enormous quantities just to be heard. The pushback, or at least the silence and double-speak that implies no real change, is therefore puzzling to say the least.

Look, I respect that you have a job to do with a corporate culture and everything that is restrictive on what you can say. But at the same time, this seems a little out of touch with the fanbase. I respect you guys, but at the same time I respect the market and I won't treat for profit companies like a charity just because I like the people working there. Giving feedback why I won't buy seems a lot better than just stopping.

Modifié par Divitiacus, 29 mars 2012 - 01:52 .

[Tehzim]

Jamboa42 wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...


Whow, Kotaku sure knows it's veiled insults.



If they made a list of top 40 undesirable organisations, we'd rank number 4. Right in between the lague of super evil, Bobby Kottick and the guys designing elevator music.

It's not a veiled insult.

If anything it's a grudging acknowledgement of the passion of fans and the nature of participatory narratives.

[sistersafetypin]

AntonioA9011 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Snakedude4life wrote...

But who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems?

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

(I still would like to hear how you guys missed that)

I would be wary of making such assumptions. Since you aren't on the development team, you can't really know if it was missed, what the issues invovled are, or how or why it appears in the final game. This is a common assumption when players find bugs in the game, but few bugs are well and truly "missed," as you define it.

I keep telling you guys this, but nobody wants to listen to me. BioWare's new motto is: "We DO listen to our fans, it's just we IGNORE them as well."

"And we get offended when our fans question our drastic changes in theme" Apparently. I have to say, this post by Woo is... not inspiring me to want to invest in any Bioware IP after this. 

If your fans don't like what you're doing, you find you no longer have fans.

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 29 mars 2012 - 01:52 .

[AntonioA9011]

EnforcerWRX7 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Snakedude4life wrote...

But who asked for this ending? What feedback showed you (or rather the designers) that we wanted "space magic"? or a ending that can be summed as "Red, Green or Blue"? Also, did the feedback show that people who might want to import an ME1 Face would have problems?

I'm sorry. I was under the impression that BioWare was populated with talented, creative individuals who have ideas of their own that they would like to implement in the game. I didn't realize that each and every facet of the game needed to be in response to a fan's request.

If you wish to sum up the conclusion of a multi-part epic game series as "Red, Green, and Blue," then feel free to. But please don't then complain that the endings are oversimplified. You are the one who has slapped that label onto it, not us.

(I still would like to hear how you guys missed that)

I would be wary of making such assumptions. Since you aren't on the development team, you can't really know if it was missed, what the issues invovled are, or how or why it appears in the final game. This is a common assumption when players find bugs in the game, but few bugs are well and truly "missed," as you define it.

You can't fault people for summing up a game's end as "red, green, blue" when thats exactly how each ending plays out.


They are only describing exactly as they see the end.  They are seeing it with their own eyes.  100s if not 1000s of people have written about it.

Bioware is a wonderfully talented organization who I think just got too melodramatic and put in an end scene that perhaps they didn't realize was...bad.  Its just bad story telling.  No one is labeling it incorrectly.  Red, Green, Blue is exactly how each ending plays out.  Not to mention the broken sequencing, lost narrative and space garden out of nowhere.

We pay good money to live through this story.  Now help us live it out in a proper manner.  The hero's journey must end but it must end right.

^^^^Again this 100%.