1334 réponses à ce sujet

[Hingjon]

Nice

[HenchxNarf]

John Epler wrote...

A tangent, but reading Stephen King's On Writing cured me of what, for me, was an unfortunate habit - trying to plan out each and every bit of my writing. That's not to say that it's for everyone, though - it's a lot easier to write yourself into a corner when you don't have any kind of outline. But for me, the way my mind works makes it almost detrimental to plan things out too much in advance. I do best when it's off-the-cuff - the story I want to tell exists almost in its entirety in my head, after all, and putting it down on paper as an 'outline' seems to ruin something in the translation.

This is not meant as a comment on anything ME related, by the way - I just find it fascinating how different people have completely different writing styles.

Being as hard core King fan, you would think I would have read that book (and being that I'm a writer as well), but I haven't. I've never even heard of it :/

Is it any good?

[Paparob]

John Epler: You may not be able to answer this but what is the general feeling about PAX around the office?

[John Epler]

EvilChani wrote...

John Epler wrote...

A tangent, but reading Stephen King's On Writing cured me of what, for me, was an unfortunate habit - trying to plan out each and every bit of my writing. That's not to say that it's for everyone, though - it's a lot easier to write yourself into a corner when you don't have any kind of outline. But for me, the way my mind works makes it almost detrimental to plan things out too much in advance. I do best when it's off-the-cuff - the story I want to tell exists almost in its entirety in my head, after all, and putting it down on paper as an 'outline' seems to ruin something in the translation.

This is not meant as a comment on anything ME related, by the way - I just find it fascinating how different people have completely different writing styles.

The problem with outlining too much of a story is that, at some point, the characters refuse to cooperate with you and force the story elsewhere. Unless, of course, you say the hell with it and write them (or those around them) in a way that doesn't mesh with their characterization and call it a day, in which case you end up with plot-driven drivel. Stupid uncooperative characters...

One of the most interesting introductions I've ever read to a book was the introduction to Salem's Lot. King had originally planned for the protagonist (you'll have to forgive me, I can't recall his name as it's been a good year and a half since I last read it) to end up a victim of the vampires, but found that his writing steadfastly refused to cooperate on that front, and the protagonist ended up a hero. Which I thought was rather fascinating. I've always considered one of my greatest misjudgments to be Stephen King's work - for the longest time, I thought of it as 'oh, that horror stuff, not my thing'. Really made an impression on me, though.

[Torrible]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Nono i meant arent plot holes facts?

Not if they are yet to be explained. Once everything is explained, then it may be possible to construe those inconsistencies as plot holes.

Modifié par Torrible, 29 mars 2012 - 06:48 .

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Nono i meant arent plot holes facts?

Not necissarly, some people have found the endings to be fufilling in some ways, it is all the perspective of the player and what they think, obviously, most people think there are a lot of plot holes, (even I do, and I am a staunch IT believer) but it is really all opinion when it comes down to it.

Modifié par GME_ThorianCreeper, 29 mars 2012 - 06:46 .

[Isichar]

John Epler wrote...

EvilChani wrote...

John Epler wrote...

A tangent, but reading Stephen King's On Writing cured me of what, for me, was an unfortunate habit - trying to plan out each and every bit of my writing. That's not to say that it's for everyone, though - it's a lot easier to write yourself into a corner when you don't have any kind of outline. But for me, the way my mind works makes it almost detrimental to plan things out too much in advance. I do best when it's off-the-cuff - the story I want to tell exists almost in its entirety in my head, after all, and putting it down on paper as an 'outline' seems to ruin something in the translation.

This is not meant as a comment on anything ME related, by the way - I just find it fascinating how different people have completely different writing styles.

The problem with outlining too much of a story is that, at some point, the characters refuse to cooperate with you and force the story elsewhere. Unless, of course, you say the hell with it and write them (or those around them) in a way that doesn't mesh with their characterization and call it a day, in which case you end up with plot-driven drivel. Stupid uncooperative characters...

One of the most interesting introductions I've ever read to a book was the introduction to Salem's Lot. King had originally planned for the protagonist (you'll have to forgive me, I can't recall his name as it's been a good year and a half since I last read it) to end up a victim of the vampires, but found that his writing steadfastly refused to cooperate on that front, and the protagonist ended up a hero. Which I thought was rather fascinating. I've always considered one of my greatest misjudgments to be Stephen King's work - for the longest time, I thought of it as 'oh, that horror stuff, not my thing'. Really made an impression on me, though.

If you like SK, what did you think of the dark tower (series) if youv read it? JC since it and the shining are my favorites...

[John Epler]

HenchxNarf wrote...

John Epler wrote...

A tangent, but reading Stephen King's On Writing cured me of what, for me, was an unfortunate habit - trying to plan out each and every bit of my writing. That's not to say that it's for everyone, though - it's a lot easier to write yourself into a corner when you don't have any kind of outline. But for me, the way my mind works makes it almost detrimental to plan things out too much in advance. I do best when it's off-the-cuff - the story I want to tell exists almost in its entirety in my head, after all, and putting it down on paper as an 'outline' seems to ruin something in the translation.

This is not meant as a comment on anything ME related, by the way - I just find it fascinating how different people have completely different writing styles.

Being as hard core King fan, you would think I would have read that book (and being that I'm a writer as well), but I haven't. I've never even heard of it :/

Is it any good?

Quite good. As a reader, it's interesting to see how he approaches writing and characterization, and the story of his life is an interesting read in and of itself. As a writer, he provides a lot of good advice in a very straightforward fashion. It's definitely among the top biographies I've ever read, and if you're a King fan I strongly recommend it.

[jarrettwold]

John Epler wrote...

One of the most interesting introductions I've ever read to a book was the introduction to Salem's Lot. King had originally planned for the protagonist (you'll have to forgive me, I can't recall his name as it's been a good year and a half since I last read it) to end up a victim of the vampires, but found that his writing steadfastly refused to cooperate on that front, and the protagonist ended up a hero. Which I thought was rather fascinating. I've always considered one of my greatest misjudgments to be Stephen King's work - for the longest time, I thought of it as 'oh, that horror stuff, not my thing'. Really made an impression on me, though.

I think what King misses sometimes, is that his stories are framed in horror with his characters as studies.  Stu Redman, you could place that character next to a living, breathing human and he would pass.

Hope also tends to have a strong thread in his novels.  They may be dark or apocalyptic, but there's always hope in a Stephen King story.

[HITMAN629]

I have never this many responses from Bioware employee's on a thread before, its nice to have insight from their standpoint

[Cgrissom]

Kirrahe would be proud.

Hold the Line!

[Isichar]

jarrettwold wrote...

John Epler wrote...

One of the most interesting introductions I've ever read to a book was the introduction to Salem's Lot. King had originally planned for the protagonist (you'll have to forgive me, I can't recall his name as it's been a good year and a half since I last read it) to end up a victim of the vampires, but found that his writing steadfastly refused to cooperate on that front, and the protagonist ended up a hero. Which I thought was rather fascinating. I've always considered one of my greatest misjudgments to be Stephen King's work - for the longest time, I thought of it as 'oh, that horror stuff, not my thing'. Really made an impression on me, though.

I think what King misses sometimes, is that his stories are framed in horror with his characters as studies.  Stu Redman, you could place that character next to a living, breathing human and he would pass.

Hope also tends to have a strong thread in his novels.  They may be dark or apocalyptic, but there's always hope in a Stephen King story.

Ever read or seen "the mist"???

[John Epler]

Isichar wrote...

jarrettwold wrote...

John Epler wrote...

One of the most interesting introductions I've ever read to a book was the introduction to Salem's Lot. King had originally planned for the protagonist (you'll have to forgive me, I can't recall his name as it's been a good year and a half since I last read it) to end up a victim of the vampires, but found that his writing steadfastly refused to cooperate on that front, and the protagonist ended up a hero. Which I thought was rather fascinating. I've always considered one of my greatest misjudgments to be Stephen King's work - for the longest time, I thought of it as 'oh, that horror stuff, not my thing'. Really made an impression on me, though.

I think what King misses sometimes, is that his stories are framed in horror with his characters as studies.  Stu Redman, you could place that character next to a living, breathing human and he would pass.

Hope also tends to have a strong thread in his novels.  They may be dark or apocalyptic, but there's always hope in a Stephen King story.

Ever read or seen "the mist"???

Oh, the Mist. It always gave me a Half-Life vibe, but much creepier. My favourite of his novellas, and close to my favourite of his stories, period. The movie was.. interesting, and had a lot of good parts to it, although the whole was less than the sum of the parts.

But I think we're getting a little too far off-topic here! Much as I love these sidebars, we really ought to be at least tangentially ME related.

[StrawberryRainPop]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Skirlasvoud wrote...

And let me just state that you have my respect for coming out here and argueing with us Stanley Woo. That's more than most of your company do with their misinterpretations of our qualms. This is dirty fighting and the odds are against you facing a mob of rabid fans, but hats off that you'd have the guts to engage us at our level.

Nothing personal as we keep taking cracks at Bioware.

And that's the reason more of us don't come in here to discuss things with you. Every line, every word is dissected, criticized, and jumped on. We are accused of lying, of being incompetent, disingenuous, greedy, and apathetic. We are accused of not listening to the fans, not knowing what they want, and not caring about them. We are in a no-win position. And yet, people somehow want us to talk to them more?

Come on, you can't distrust everything we say and insist we tell you things at the exact same time.

Mr Woo i appreaciate mods talking to us, but the best way to to adress the real questions instead of avoiding it.

[FemmeShep]

So does anyone want to address the elephant in the room...

That Casey and Mac supposedly wrote the ending without any input from the rest of the writing staff. That they took the end of the game to leave their mark with an ending that favored symbolism over substance/reality?

I'm all for symbolic endings. Artistic and abstract endings. But it has to be reasonable within the narrative. It seems to me, that wanting to take an epic that is over 100+ hours long, and end it with something that is more concerned about being deep than the continuity or substance of the plot, was rather irresponsible from a writing perspective. 

I only bring this up, because I think it's important to understanding why the ending is the way it is. Personally, I'm really interested to learn the process of how the ending was written. And for the record, I think if this is true, it was well within Casey and Mac's right to write the ending on their own. They are lead, it's their story. But, I think, it might also have not have been the best idea to write something without getting any critical input or outside persepctive. 

As a fan, who doesn't have the entire picture (and I admit this bias)...I feel really upset at the idea that two people were more concerned with delivering a deep/memorable ending that would reflect them creatively, than thinking about the overall plot/story. I'm not saying my feelings are right or rational (hell them writing the end by themselves without input might not even be true). Still, I can't help but feel this way. 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 29 mars 2012 - 07:14 .

[augustburnt]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

Wait what? Dear lord if I have to explain economics to a mod... 
It would be entitlement if ME3 was free. It would be entitlement if Bioware were an artist. Neither of this are true. You are a company. You have one single purpose on this planet, to sell a product. Do not lie to us and say you do it because it's something you enjoy because if that was the case ME3 would be free. You can say we are acting entitled until you are blue in the face. The fact remains that we are the consumer, your product is designed to entertain us, and without us and our money there is no Bioware. We have paid for a product (many of us have preordered) with the faith that the long line quality games would continue. When that was not entirely the case you recived feedback. Some possitive and some negative. That is how ANY product is recieved by the consumers.

What made this diffrent was the way you handled the feedback. In the begining the only thing we could get out of you was "We are listening." Thats great, considering its pretty hard to ignore a large angry fanbase. Then your founder and Casey posted articles explaining how hard they worked and that they were proud of the ending and in essence had an undertone implying we were too shallow to understand the ending. That was the WRONG move. Telling somebody that they are wrong just because you tried your best only works in Disney movies. I work for military air defense, I imput information into a radar system to to coordinate the air tracks we pick up and pass them to the shooters who in turn shoot down any hostile air targets. If I do my job wrong and put in the information wrong and because of that somebody gets hurt, or God forbid, dies, I would NEVER NEVER EVER use the excuse, well I did my best, its your fault you didnt fix my mistake.

The end point is, a LOT of people want alternate endings to this game. Why in God's name is that such a big deal for Bioware? For years you have said the player makes his/her own story within mass effect, and thats what we are asking to do now. It presents you with the ability to make money on a DLC and it is an opportunity to show the fanbase that you actually care and to make (us) happy. SO please, don't say we are acting like we are entitled, the simple fact is, we are the consumers, it is our job TO BE entitled.

[Tehzim]

It's interesting to see people come to a 40 page thread and comment about a post a few pages in. It took me forever to get to the end of this thread. Good reading though. It was nice to have a couple of Bioware people in here. I wouldn't mind a megathread with all you guys. You could form your own line and we could play red rover...

[Catroi]

A quick question:
I thought you guys said there was going to be a Miracle of Sound music and I was expecting it to be "Commander Shepard" for the happy ending credit roll (well there is no happy ending so that gets out of the way ^^) Do you know what happened to this?
Also any info on Casey's reaction about us picking up the "there will be no A,B or C ending" promise?

[MrHibachi]

Kanner wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

but the endings ARE oversimplified....come on dont deny that....

Sadly, the ME3 endings are a bit like The Matrix.  No-one can be told how bad they are - you have to see them for yourself.

Stanley just hasn't done that yet.

I was told that it was bad before my sister (who had just completed the game) passed off the xbox we share and I began my campaign on the CE.  She didn't give any details at all and I started forming all kinds of possible endings in my head that I thought would be as terrible as she made the fanbase uproar sound...once I saw it for myself though, it was indeed worse than even I imagined was possible.

[Megakoresh]

THEY MADE A MISTAKE! They made a mistake....

And just like Mordin they are trying to fix it instead of being unprofessional and just shutting their eyes and ears. I do not agree on many things done with Mass Effect 3, but those are mainly business practices that are bad for the consumers. As with the game, you have admit, the ending being bad for most of us was clearly a mistake. The rest of the game was very good for it to be otherwise. And we should be thankful that BioWare are the kind of developer that acknowledges it.

I think we should just let go of blaming them for the ending and see if they are able to fix it. Concentrate of other stuff, like Multiplayer bugs, Texture quality, hell even freaking SPACEBAR!!
There are issues of lower scale that demand attention, I think we've already done our part for the issue of the ending.

Modifié par Megakoresh, 29 mars 2012 - 07:09 .

[Mr Deathbot]

Bioware is treading on thin ice now.

[beyondsolo]

Yay, they put us on a list of mostly evil people. I always wanted to be on there... j/k

Anyway, while it's interesting to see that the Retake ME3 movement has drawn some sort of reaction by BioWare in its wake, I reserve my judgement on how powerful we truly are until BioWare actually does something about the ending. I never wanted to be in a position affiliated with power in relation to BioWare, not even as part of a group.

The ending of ME3 has struck a major dent in my trust in the company. I fear that with releasing the game with an ending like this is a symptom of BioWare completely abandoning what I used to love about their games: care for the characters, love for the detail, investment in the world and lore. I think that this trust can be regained, but it'll take more than PR talk to do that; it will take actions.

I understand that BioWare cannot respond instantly with actions. So I'm waiting patiently. And I will judge the company based on how they decide to act and what the nature of that action is, all corporate and PR talk aside.

Modifié par beyondsolo, 29 mars 2012 - 07:06 .

[Dreogan]

FemmeShep wrote...

I can't believe anyone is still defending those awful endings.

It's a simple matter of "I like it." followed by being put on the defensive by so many that disagree with them. I'd say it's overwhelming around here. Some simply don't have the ability to look a little deeper and point out exactly why they like it-- it becomes an opinion, much like whether they prefer hot or iced tea. (A lot of the "I hate it" people are the same way!)

Then in some cases, there are those that simply enjoy  -- or have the tendancy of -- supporting the "other side."

I've seen attempts to defend the endings from all sorts of angles. The least effective tactics tend to be "plothole x is closed" or "too deep for you." "I'm better than you" tends to be the most rage-inducing. "Bioware couldn't have made a mistake" is frustrating, but I feel a bit of empathy for those individuals.

Sadly, I haven't found a single compelling defense of the delivery/storytelling of the ending. I've seen attempts, sure, but nothing compelling. This is where the battle will be won or lost: all of the listed tactics in the previous paragraph crumble when we are confronted with the unfortunate fact of audience rejection. 

Modifié par Dreogan, 29 mars 2012 - 07:12 .

[Dreogan]

Catroi wrote...

A quick question:
I thought you guys said there was going to be a Miracle of Sound music and I was expecting it to be "Commander Shepard" for the happy ending credit roll (well there is no happy ending so that gets out of the way ^^) Do you know what happened to this?
Also any info on Casey's reaction about us picking up the "there will be no A,B or C ending" promise?

I imagine he got sent to his room without dinner. Haven't seen him much.

[Tehzim]

If I were Casey I probably wouldn't want to go near my computer. The level of vitriol and fire would probably melt his computer and blow out a wall in his house. I mean, if it's bad for Stanley and the others, just imagine what Casey and Mac must be getting. Would not want to be them right now.

Hopefully they'll peek out at PAX and give us something with meat on it.