1334 réponses à ce sujet

[HenchxNarf]

FemmeShep wrote...

So does anyone want to address the elephant in the room...

That Casey and Mac supposedly wrote the ending without any input from the rest of the writing staff. That they took the end of the game to leave their mark with an ending that favored symbolism over substance/reality?

I'm all for symbolic endings. Artistic and abstract endings. But it has to be reasonable within the narrative. It seems to me, that wanting to take an epic that is over 100+ hours long, and end it with something that is more concerned about being deep than the continuity or substance of the plot was rather irresponsible from a writing perspective. 

I only bring this up, because I think it's important to understand why the ending is the way it is. Personally, I'm really interested to learn the process of how the ending was written. And for the record, I think if this is true, it was well within Casey and Mac's right to write the ending on their own. They are lead, it's their story. But, I think, it might also have not have been the best idea to write something without getting any critical input or outside persepctive. 

That's speculation, not fact.

[Dreogan]

HenchxNarf wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

So does anyone want to address the elephant in the room...

That Casey and Mac supposedly wrote the ending without any input from the rest of the writing staff. That they took the end of the game to leave their mark with an ending that favored symbolism over substance/reality?

I'm all for symbolic endings. Artistic and abstract endings. But it has to be reasonable within the narrative. It seems to me, that wanting to take an epic that is over 100+ hours long, and end it with something that is more concerned about being deep than the continuity or substance of the plot was rather irresponsible from a writing perspective. 

I only bring this up, because I think it's important to understand why the ending is the way it is. Personally, I'm really interested to learn the process of how the ending was written. And for the record, I think if this is true, it was well within Casey and Mac's right to write the ending on their own. They are lead, it's their story. But, I think, it might also have not have been the best idea to write something without getting any critical input or outside persepctive. 

That's speculation, not fact.

Speculation, yes, but comparing the ending to the rest of the story does tend to support this speculation. Same with the opening chapter.

Modifié par Dreogan, 29 mars 2012 - 07:13 .

[jarrettwold]

John Epler wrote...

Isichar wrote...

jarrettwold wrote...

John Epler wrote...

One of the most interesting introductions I've ever read to a book was the introduction to Salem's Lot. King had originally planned for the protagonist (you'll have to forgive me, I can't recall his name as it's been a good year and a half since I last read it) to end up a victim of the vampires, but found that his writing steadfastly refused to cooperate on that front, and the protagonist ended up a hero. Which I thought was rather fascinating. I've always considered one of my greatest misjudgments to be Stephen King's work - for the longest time, I thought of it as 'oh, that horror stuff, not my thing'. Really made an impression on me, though.

I think what King misses sometimes, is that his stories are framed in horror with his characters as studies.  Stu Redman, you could place that character next to a living, breathing human and he would pass.

Hope also tends to have a strong thread in his novels.  They may be dark or apocalyptic, but there's always hope in a Stephen King story.

Ever read or seen "the mist"???

Oh, the Mist. It always gave me a Half-Life vibe, but much creepier. My favourite of his novellas, and close to my favourite of his stories, period. The movie was.. interesting, and had a lot of good parts to it, although the whole was less than the sum of the parts.

But I think we're getting a little too far off-topic here! Much as I love these sidebars, we really ought to be at least tangentially ME related.

The Mist was spiritual inspiration for Half-Life  
I've read The Mist, the ending trailed off.  The ending that you see in the movie, was written for it by Darabont.  It was dark, and bleak.  But, in the movie when all is lost what are the last things you see?  

Getting to Mass Effect.  I've been pondering why people are so invested in Mass Effect, particularly the ending.  Why did I react so negatively to it?  I think for me, and looking around... a hedge fund manager isn't going to go to the degree that the Retake movement went to.  In Mass Effect, Shep was our avatar.  At moments in that game, I was Shep.  I had a chance to be a hero.  Your average every day person, can be a hero.  However, it's in typically small ways.

What Mass Effect gave to me, was a good 90 hours of escape from my life, which isn't spectacular.  I would wager that's roughly the same for people that are so vocally involved in it.  Even though it was an illusion of choice, I was able to do the right thing (most of the time) in a way that mattered in scale.  It wasn't so much a function of power or ego in that sense.  It was my time, in video game form, to be a leader and decision maker.  Instead of being the guy that gets ignored walking through the store, being at the mercy of a landlord or tied to a paycheck.

It was freeing in that sense.  It's the first time I've ever felt that way in just about any medium.  Which makes video games that much more novel.  So for that 90 hours I became a hero, against all odds fighting for the fate of the universe.  I knew self sacrifice was on the table playing it, that was always an option.  But, the hope for hope in that universe was shattered in those last five minutes.  It was crushing.  Because, at that moment my epic hero was transformed into little old me.  A bit personal, but that's why I escape into video games, music, movies and books.  There are times where I need a little more hope than life's giving me

[HenchxNarf]

Dreogan wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

So does anyone want to address the elephant in the room...

That Casey and Mac supposedly wrote the ending without any input from the rest of the writing staff. That they took the end of the game to leave their mark with an ending that favored symbolism over substance/reality?

I'm all for symbolic endings. Artistic and abstract endings. But it has to be reasonable within the narrative. It seems to me, that wanting to take an epic that is over 100+ hours long, and end it with something that is more concerned about being deep than the continuity or substance of the plot was rather irresponsible from a writing perspective. 

I only bring this up, because I think it's important to understand why the ending is the way it is. Personally, I'm really interested to learn the process of how the ending was written. And for the record, I think if this is true, it was well within Casey and Mac's right to write the ending on their own. They are lead, it's their story. But, I think, it might also have not have been the best idea to write something without getting any critical input or outside persepctive. 

That's speculation, not fact.

Speculation, yes, but comparing the ending to the rest of the story does tend to support this speculation. Same with the opening chapter.

That's opinion. I liked the endings, and it doesn't fit in with that theory.

[FemmeShep]

HenchxNarf wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

So does anyone want to address the elephant in the room...

That Casey and Mac supposedly wrote the ending without any input from the rest of the writing staff. That they took the end of the game to leave their mark with an ending that favored symbolism over substance/reality?

I'm all for symbolic endings. Artistic and abstract endings. But it has to be reasonable within the narrative. It seems to me, that wanting to take an epic that is over 100+ hours long, and end it with something that is more concerned about being deep than the continuity or substance of the plot was rather irresponsible from a writing perspective. 

I only bring this up, because I think it's important to understand why the ending is the way it is. Personally, I'm really interested to learn the process of how the ending was written. And for the record, I think if this is true, it was well within Casey and Mac's right to write the ending on their own. They are lead, it's their story. But, I think, it might also have not have been the best idea to write something without getting any critical input or outside persepctive. 

That's speculation, not fact.

Who said it was fact? 

Modifié par FemmeShep, 29 mars 2012 - 07:22 .

[xsdob]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

First the BSN will take Bioware. Then the entire gaming Industry. Next stop, the world shall be bathed in our flame wars and repetitive posting and creepy fanart!

Let the world not just hear us but bow to us!

But seriously, it's kinda hilarious and awesome at the same time.

It's actually more like the awkwardness at a restaurant when a dude makes a scene because his steak wasn't cooked to his liking.

Except that guy doesn't make the 40 most powerful, doeeeees he? 

Lighten up!

It's actually more like that even more awkward moment when the dude complaining pulls out a notebook and starts writing stuff down after the rant and everyone realizes he's a food critic for the local news.

It's about that kind of awkward.

Modifié par xsdob, 29 mars 2012 - 07:17 .

[LilyasAvalon]

die-yng wrote...

Don't know if I can be happy about such a double edged thing.

[Dreogan]

jarrettwold  wrote:

The Mist was spiritual inspiration for Half-Life  
I've read The Mist, the ending trailed off.  The ending that you see in the movie, was written for it by Darabont.  It was dark, and bleak.  But, in the movie when all is lost what are the last things you see?  

Getting to Mass Effect.  I've been pondering why people are so invested in Mass Effect, particularly the ending.  Why did I react so negatively to it?  I think for me, and looking around... a hedge fund manager isn't going to go to the degree that the Retake movement went to.  In Mass Effect, Shep was our avatar.  At moments in that game, I was Shep.  I had a chance to be a hero.  Your average every day person, can be a hero.  However, it's in typically small ways.

What Mass Effect gave to me, was a good 90 hours of escape from my life, which isn't spectacular.  I would wager that's roughly the same for people that are so vocally involved in it.  Even though it was an illusion of choice, I was able to do the right thing (most of the time) in a way that mattered in scale.  It wasn't so much a function of power or ego in that sense.  It was my time, in video game form, to be a leader and decision maker.  Instead of being the guy that gets ignored walking through the store, being at the mercy of a landlord or tied to a paycheck.

It was freeing in that sense.  It's the first time I've ever felt that way in just about any medium.  Which makes video games that much more novel.  So for that 90 hours I became a hero, against all odds fighting for the fate of the universe.  I knew self sacrifice was on the table playing it, that was always an option.  But, the hope for hope in that universe was shattered in those last five minutes.  It was crushing.  Because, at that moment my epic hero was transformed into little old me.  A bit personal, but that's why I escape into video games, music, movies and books.  There are times where I need a little more hope than life's giving me

You already knew the answer-- added emphasis for you. What we've seen throughout this whole ordeal is the penalty of the storyteller breaking the suspension of disbelief. The story, the fictive universe, of Mass Effect, existed in your mind for five years. When those last five minutes came about, a series of errors forced you to second-guess the story, brought you out of that universe, and did much more damage to that universe (by invalidation) than the explosion of relays could ever do to the actual universe of Mass Effect. The fabric of Mass Effect was torn.

This has happened in smaller scale in other works, but Mass Effect is unique. You were led through, again, five years and three "renewals" of the writer-reader contract. Every single "renewal" multiplies the destruction of the universe when the suspension of disbelief is broken.

Modifié par Dreogan, 29 mars 2012 - 07:30 .

[xsdob]

Joolazoo wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

First the BSN will take Bioware. Then the entire gaming Industry. Next stop, the world shall be bathed in our flame wars and repetitive posting and creepy fanart!

Let the world not just hear us but bow to us!

But seriously, it's kinda hilarious and awesome at the same time.

It's actually more like the awkwardness at a restaurant when a dude makes a scene because his steak wasn't cooked to his liking.

Except that guy doesn't make the 40 most powerful, doeeeees he? 

Lighten up!

I would if the so-called loyal fans of the series aren't the ones openly sabotaging it.

...sabotaging it how? The ending sucked...whether you think we're being too demanding or not doesn't change the fact that we are not, and don't even have the ability to sabotage the game.

Having seen the term "economic warfare" used on these forums to describe apositive aspect of fan protest, I'd say open sabotauge is something that is occuring, and you just didn't have the luck to stumble onto it when the fans review bombed the BBB to give bioware an F.

[xsdob]

sistersafetypin wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

As a fan base are we paragon or renegade?

We are Paragade

Leaning toward the renegon if current negativity trends continue

[OchreJelly]

It was interesting reading the discussions here between staff and fans. It's too bad there can't be more of that but I understand why it really doesn't happen much (or with more staffers); the forum is huge and moves at FTL speeds.

On a slight tangent I remember back in the day when David Gaider released a 3rd party mod for Baldur's Gate ToB that restored some original plans for the ending. That sort of developer-as-a-fan interaction struck me as being rather cool.

Still, I can't help but wish for interaction on the level of say, Eve Online between staff and fans, like direct dev blogs and question sessions and whatnot... despite how "enthusiastic" the discussion around them can be.

As for the original topic, well, don't count other people's chickens before they hatch, is all I have to say. \\o/

[SirCrimz]

That's one huge glass of Scotch.

[Mastermadskills]

VICTORY SCREECH!



AWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLALALALALALAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Kurokenshi]

Stanley Woo wrote...

mokponobi wrote...

Thanks Mr Woo, for engaging the fans in a discussion for a bit. I appreciate hearing from you guys even if I disagree with what is said.

Hopefully, you can pick out the posts that are polite and respectful and continue to be patient with the hot heads.

Cheers.

You're welcome. I wouldn't be here if I didn't love our community like I do. And despite what people say, we do listen and we can pick out the gems amid the chaff. We have the technology.

We don't expect people to like us or agree with us all the time. But we would prefer it if people freaked out a little less.

We freak out because we care!

And thank you for your feedback.

[Dreogan]

Kurokenshi wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

mokponobi wrote...

Thanks Mr Woo, for engaging the fans in a discussion for a bit. I appreciate hearing from you guys even if I disagree with what is said.

Hopefully, you can pick out the posts that are polite and respectful and continue to be patient with the hot heads.

Cheers.

You're welcome. I wouldn't be here if I didn't love our community like I do. And despite what people say, we do listen and we can pick out the gems amid the chaff. We have the technology.

We don't expect people to like us or agree with us all the time. But we would prefer it if people freaked out a little less.

We freak out because we care!

And thank you for your feedback.

What was your favorite part about the freaking out?!

[Mev186]

augustburnt wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

Wait what? Dear lord if I have to explain economics to a mod... 
It would be entitlement if ME3 was free. It would be entitlement if Bioware were an artist. Neither of this are true. You are a company. You have one single purpose on this planet, to sell a product. Do not lie to us and say you do it because it's something you enjoy because if that was the case ME3 would be free. You can say we are acting entitled until you are blue in the face. The fact remains that we are the consumer, your product is designed to entertain us, and without us and our money there is no Bioware. We have paid for a product (many of us have preordered) with the faith that the long line quality games would continue. When that was not entirely the case you recived feedback. Some possitive and some negative. That is how ANY product is recieved by the consumers.

What made this diffrent was the way you handled the feedback. In the begining the only thing we could get out of you was "We are listening." Thats great, considering its pretty hard to ignore a large angry fanbase. Then your founder and Casey posted articles explaining how hard they worked and that they were proud of the ending and in essence had an undertone implying we were too shallow to understand the ending. That was the WRONG move. Telling somebody that they are wrong just because you tried your best only works in Disney movies. I work for military air defense, I imput information into a radar system to to coordinate the air tracks we pick up and pass them to the shooters who in turn shoot down any hostile air targets. If I do my job wrong and put in the information wrong and because of that somebody gets hurt, or God forbid, dies, I would NEVER NEVER EVER use the excuse, well I did my best, its your fault you didnt fix my mistake.

The end point is, a LOT of people want alternate endings to this game. Why in God's name is that such a big deal for Bioware? For years you have said the player makes his/her own story within mass effect, and thats what we are asking to do now. It presents you with the ability to make money on a DLC and it is an opportunity to show the fanbase that you actually care and to make (us) happy. SO please, don't say we are acting like we are entitled, the simple fact is, we are the consumers, it is our job TO BE entitled.

This is exactly what needed to be said. The whole "Artistic integrity" doesn't do much good if the profit margin goes down, If this isn't corrected in a meaningful way (In other words a NEW ending not a "clarification of the current one) people could lose their jobs over this. If a large percentage of the fanbase is alieanated it could greatly diminish Bioware., which might lead to lay offs, cuts...ect. Artistic integrity does no good when people's livelihoods are at stake.Simply give the fans what they want. Remember we CHOSE to spend our money on Bioware, we put our faith in you. Please don't let it be misplaced.

Oh, and by the way, If You have a thread requesting feedback and it is filled with essay length posts about how bad the ending is, something JUST may be wrong with the ending.. Just saying....

Modifié par Mev186, 29 mars 2012 - 07:34 .

[Quietness]

xsdob wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

First the BSN will take Bioware. Then the entire gaming Industry. Next stop, the world shall be bathed in our flame wars and repetitive posting and creepy fanart!

Let the world not just hear us but bow to us!

But seriously, it's kinda hilarious and awesome at the same time.

It's actually more like the awkwardness at a restaurant when a dude makes a scene because his steak wasn't cooked to his liking.

Except that guy doesn't make the 40 most powerful, doeeeees he? 

Lighten up!

I would if the so-called loyal fans of the series aren't the ones openly sabotaging it.

...sabotaging it how? The ending sucked...whether you think we're being too demanding or not doesn't change the fact that we are not, and don't even have the ability to sabotage the game.

Having seen the term "economic warfare" used on these forums to describe apositive aspect of fan protest, I'd say open sabotauge is something that is occuring, and you just didn't have the luck to stumble onto it when the fans review bombed the BBB to give bioware an F.

Please go and learn what the BBB is and how it works before statements like these. (incase too lazy)

The BBB is thought to be reputable but its nothing more than a scam. You dont pay in, you get an F. You pay in and you get top marks.

[kalamity116]

Stanley Woo wrote...

though it may seem contrary, this is a testament to how much our game has affected our fans and how much they care about our game and the franchise, and we can't (and don't) blame them for that.

This is something I've always hoped you guys would realize, and I'm delighted that you did. Every once in a while, when you get tired of dealing with the ****storm you face on a daily basis, remember that we're all posting here because we care about BW games. We care more than enough to get riled up (though some inevitably and unfortunately have lost control).

Many are very dissatisfied with the ending, myself included. After going through a trilogy full of awesome, the ending really gave us no real choices, nor clarity, nor closure--just a lot of plotholes. We ended the experience feeling very confused and depressed. I doubt this is what Bioware intended, but this is what many of us felt. Ultimately, the choice of whether to rectify the ending is yours (BW's) to make--you guys created the trilogy, and you own the IP. But please consider what the ending to this trilogy means to all of us (your fans), and the message that is sent to us via the choice you make will likely have a massive effect (see what I did there) on our confidence in this company and its future products.

Now were it not for Bioware's standard of high quality that we've come to love and expect, we wouldn't be here. Were it not for the hope and faith that Bioware will actually listen to our feedback and take action, we wouldn't be here. Were this about some other random FPS or TPS spinoff, we wouldn't be here. But this is Mass Effect, made by Bioware. We care, and that's why we're here.

I can't think of any other game company forum that has gone this active over an issue similar to this. This by itself, can and should be taken as a huge compliment. And thus I pray that you do us and yourselves proud.

Modifié par kalamity116, 29 mars 2012 - 07:46 .

[xsdob]

Divitiacus wrote...

Greer wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Danilo Luis wrote...

There's a huge difference between *listen* and give it the proper attention.

If you aren't willing to accept a response that disagrees with you, or aren't wililng to wait for an answer, or you insist that all of your issues must be resolved when you want them to be, then you're no longer making simple requests and giving feedback, are you? At that point, I would say you're making demands because you feel entitled to them, and we treat those very differently than we treat requests. Which is why we encourage people to be civil and patient and reasonable in their posts.

That's quite the low blow, don't you think?

Most people weren't expecting a fix right now. We know those things take time. All most people wanted was acknowledgement that we were upset, that there had been an error in judgement made, and that steps would be taken to rectify said error.

Instead, we got silence.

And then we were insulted.

And then we got some more silence.

And then we got a PR statement that essentially said we were nothing more than a vocal minority and Bioware was completely baffled by the outcry because all the critics loved the game, but because the fans were apparently too simple to understand the ending, it would be "clarified" for us.

This isn't about throwing a tantrum and expecting something now. Trying to paint it as such is disingenuous.

This is a very insightful post.

The fans have attacked bioware and the staff way worse than any of the fictional attacks bioware has supposedly laid against the fans. We ignore them when they try to defend themselves and dismiss their views as invalid and wrong.

We do what we claim they do to us, and than we try to make ourselves seem like the victims. There were no victims in this incident until the fans started to react, than bioware and al those who didn't agree with the mass consensus became the victims of harrasment, spam attacks, and personal insults.

If your really so insecure that you have to take every comment as a threat, than all I can do is pity you.

[HenchxNarf]

Quietness wrote...

Please go and learn what the BBB is and how it works before statements like these. (incase too lazy)

The BBB is thought to be reputable but its nothing more than a scam. You dont pay in, you get an F. You pay in and you get top marks.

Not quite, but good try.

[TheGoddess0fWar]

So...look's like Pax is going to be a joke!

[Quietness]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Please go and learn what the BBB is and how it works before statements like these. (incase too lazy)

The BBB is thought to be reputable but its nothing more than a scam. You dont pay in, you get an F. You pay in and you get top marks.

Not quite, but good try.

Lol cute, i have experience and work with this on a daily basis ^^ and you're professional expertise is....?

[Dreogan]

Hench, it's a bad idea to start a war with Quietness. They'll be able to destroy you with their sheer power of lightning-posting.

Also, if you could do better than posting your opinions it would be much appreciated. One-sentence assertions aren't going to change anyone's mind.

Modifié par Dreogan, 29 mars 2012 - 07:39 .

[hector7rau]

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

So...look's like Pax is going to be a joke!

Is this true? If so... let the storm begin. Bioware you made your beds.

[xsdob]

Quietness wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

First the BSN will take Bioware. Then the entire gaming Industry. Next stop, the world shall be bathed in our flame wars and repetitive posting and creepy fanart!

Let the world not just hear us but bow to us!

But seriously, it's kinda hilarious and awesome at the same time.

It's actually more like the awkwardness at a restaurant when a dude makes a scene because his steak wasn't cooked to his liking.

Except that guy doesn't make the 40 most powerful, doeeeees he? 

Lighten up!

I would if the so-called loyal fans of the series aren't the ones openly sabotaging it.

...sabotaging it how? The ending sucked...whether you think we're being too demanding or not doesn't change the fact that we are not, and don't even have the ability to sabotage the game.

Having seen the term "economic warfare" used on these forums to describe apositive aspect of fan protest, I'd say open sabotauge is something that is occuring, and you just didn't have the luck to stumble onto it when the fans review bombed the BBB to give bioware an F.

Please go and learn what the BBB is and how it works before statements like these. (incase too lazy)

The BBB is thought to be reputable but its nothing more than a scam. You dont pay in, you get an F. You pay in and you get top marks.

And how do you explain the attempts to orginize mass returns and bomb every review site everywhere else, also the BBB article list 54 unanswered complaints as the reason for the bad rating, 9 of which are label under "advertsiment issues" as in that fringe that believes bioware is guilty of false advertsiment.

http://www.bbb.org/e...onton-ab-111723

Also, filing a complaint with the FTC is also a sign of trying to get bioware to become a toxic asset for EA.